Sierra 165 grain BTSP in .308 Winchester for elk? - Page 2

ZeroJunk · September 23, 2016, 11:37 AM

I have seen them shed the jacket as well. But, the animal was dead close by. And, I have shot several deer with Barnes X bullets that can't come apart and did not do nearly the internal damage of the Sierra that did. So, I don't know exactly what that means. I suppose if you want to go through a shoulder and make it to the vitals on elk size game it is significant. If it is a typical broad side shot the Sierra BTSP seems to do more damage than say a Nosler Partition even when it does separate.

Wyosmith · September 23, 2016, 11:57 AM

I gave up on most Sierras years ago for the same reason. I have used them in 270, 7mm 30 and 375 calibers and they have come apart in all of them. Not that they won't kill, but they are a bit of a risk at times. If a bone is hit on the entrance you can expect a lot less penetration from a Sierra than other bullets with tougher construction.

The only bullet maker who's bullets I have used or seen used that I rate lower then Sierra for big game is Burger.

Burger will even tell you that their hunting bullets are designed to come apart, and they are truthful in that statement.

It is true that such a wound is probably going to be fatal, but you will not have a good blood trail, and maybe no blood trail. If your animal falls within a few feet of the place it was hit, you go home happy. If they run into the weeds or trees and you can't find the blood, you killed that animal but don't bring it home. It dies somewhere, and you go try to find another one. Maybe with the same results.

I don't like that. But that's just me.
I will take a 2 MOA load with a bullet that holds 60% or more of it's weight over a 1/8 MOA load that fragments on impact for every game animal there is, except for animals that weight 20 pounds or less.

I love Sierras and Burgers for prairie dogs and jack rabbits as well as paper shooting.

But I don't ever shoot them at game of any kind from 70 pound or up. Not even coyotes, unless I am not intending to keep the hide.

Dufus · September 23, 2016, 10:36 PM

^^^^^^^^
+1

Guv · September 24, 2016, 02:57 AM

One small advantage for the factory loaded Sierra used in Federal Premium is the cannelure. It acts as a sort of a belt around the jacket to help retain the core. Still though, bullets like Remington CORE-LOKT and Winchester POWER POINT's have more jacket thickening along the shank of the bullet. Sierra's jacket metal tapering is very minimal, probably why they typically group so well.

Art Eatman · September 24, 2016, 09:03 AM

I've tagged some four dozen bucks. (Back in the two whitetails/year, and one mulie/yr, era in Texas.) Most were with Sierras. All were bang-flops, with only three needing a coup de grace. Never any tracking.

Kinda hard for me to complain.

Wyosmith · September 24, 2016, 11:33 AM

Art, I have to agree, in that I have never needed 2 shots on deer with 270s 7X57, 308, or 30-06 with any Sierra. But big Nevada and Idaho Mule Deer are big in comparison to a lot of other deer, but small compared to elk.

I was a very good shot and I killed every one with one shot apiece, but when I can recover 40-45 grain 30 caliber bullets from deer shot with 30-06s, and those bullets left my rifle at 165 grains, I have to say I was not impressed enough to try them on elk.

230 pound deer are big, but are very small compared to 650 -900 pound elk.

Many hunters think they need a larger cartridge for elk hunting and in most cases they don't, but they should use a tougher and/or heavier bullet.

Art Eatman · September 24, 2016, 07:00 PM

My only comparison within the Sierra line was at 500 yards on steel. 150-grain SPBT, 165-grain HPBT and 180-grain SPBT.

The 150 barely made a ding. 165, a wee bit more. But the 180 was noticeably a bit deeper with the beginning of splashback cratering. Were I to use a Sierra bullet on an elk, I'd use that 180 or maybe the 180 flat-base as the flat-base is a tougher bullet.

Mr. Hill · October 25, 2016, 10:42 AM

I used it, and it worked pretty well, it put a medium-large 5x4 bull elk down, and I can't complain about that! I used it because I had to this season, but I don't think I'll use it again for elk.

Distance for the first shot was 100 yards. The bullet entered behind the shoulder broadside, producing a quarter sized hole going in, shredded both lungs, and produced a much smaller hole - almost a slit - when it exited between the ribs through the other side.

The elk paused for a second, and then ran directly toward me before breaking left and running hard back toward the dark timber he'd emerged from. That gave me a chance to take a follow-up broadside shot at about 60 yards. That second bullet entered high above the shoulder and severed the elk's spine, causing him to pile up hard; the bullet expanded nicely and blew out a 3" solid chunk of spine.

I'd give the bullet a "C+" grade. It performed well enough to kill the elk, but I don't like how the exit wound on that first shot was much smaller than the entry wound. That bullet may have keyholed going out. There was no evidence of jacket-core separation, but I've used bonded/monotholic soft points that have performed better on the exit. I'm not sure that the game king would have exited had it hit a rib on the way out, and I'd like a bigger hole for an exit wound. I think the first bullet, that shredded both lungs - would have killed the elk eventually, but I didn't want him to get back to that dark timber, so I took a second shot. Elk are tough.

In conclusion, the 165 grain .308 Winchester Sierra gameking btsp will kill an elk, but I'll be switching to a 165 bonded/monolithic sp bullet next year for more reliable performance in case I hit heavy bone like a shoulder or rib.

Edited to add: and to be fair to Federal, the company suggests the 165 btsp gameking round for use on medium-sized game (mule deer and deer), so kudos to Federal for making a round that did do the job on a 650 pound bull elk!

bamaranger · October 25, 2016, 11:53 AM

Well, well, a followup report on one of our discussions.

Thank you Mr. Hill, and congrats on your elk.

Mr. Hill · October 25, 2016, 08:22 PM

Thank you sir, and thanks to TFL!!!

AllenJ · October 26, 2016, 01:14 PM

I've seen four of what I classify 'bullet failures' in my years of hunting but all four animals were harvested. First was a 165 grn Hornady Interlock shot from my 30-06, I shot a running pig at approximately 175 yards through the spine. The hole left by the bullet was impressive to say the least but I did find the jacket lodged in the bone. Second was a 180 grn Nosler Partition shot in my 300 Win Mag. I shot a small buck through the lower neck at about 35 yards, the buck fell in its tracks but there was no exit wound and no bone was hit. It was as if the bullet just disintegrated leaving a softball sized entry hole and while skinning the animal a single drop of blood was seen where the exit wound should have been. Third was an antelope I shot with a 180 grn Speer BT, 30-06, distance was about 200 yards. Bullet entered the shoulder, struck and broke a bone, then turned 90 degrees exited leaving a cloud of dust at the animals foot. After a long tracking job I ended up shooting it again in the spine. The final failure was just this year, using a Barnes 80 grn TTSX in my 243. I shot a buck broadside in the lungs at about 20 yards. The bullet key-holed on contact and while it knocked the buck down for good there was not nearly as much internal damage as I'm used to seeing from Barnes bullets and no exit hole.

What I've taken from this is no matter what the manufactures say, no matter how much money you spend, bullet failures are going to happen.

September 24, 2016, 02:57 AM	#29
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	One small advantage for the factory loaded Sierra used in Federal Premium is the cannelure. It acts as a sort of a belt around the jacket to help retain the core. Still though, bullets like Remington CORE-LOKT and Winchester POWER POINT's have more jacket thickening along the shank of the bullet. Sierra's jacket metal tapering is very minimal, probably why they typically group so well. __________________ Walnut and Gloss Blue, mostly!

October 25, 2016, 10:42 AM	#33
Mr. Hill Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2015 Posts: 384	Update and review I used it, and it worked pretty well, it put a medium-large 5x4 bull elk down, and I can't complain about that! I used it because I had to this season, but I don't think I'll use it again for elk. Distance for the first shot was 100 yards. The bullet entered behind the shoulder broadside, producing a quarter sized hole going in, shredded both lungs, and produced a much smaller hole - almost a slit - when it exited between the ribs through the other side. The elk paused for a second, and then ran directly toward me before breaking left and running hard back toward the dark timber he'd emerged from. That gave me a chance to take a follow-up broadside shot at about 60 yards. That second bullet entered high above the shoulder and severed the elk's spine, causing him to pile up hard; the bullet expanded nicely and blew out a 3" solid chunk of spine. I'd give the bullet a "C+" grade. It performed well enough to kill the elk, but I don't like how the exit wound on that first shot was much smaller than the entry wound. That bullet may have keyholed going out. There was no evidence of jacket-core separation, but I've used bonded/monotholic soft points that have performed better on the exit. I'm not sure that the game king would have exited had it hit a rib on the way out, and I'd like a bigger hole for an exit wound. I think the first bullet, that shredded both lungs - would have killed the elk eventually, but I didn't want him to get back to that dark timber, so I took a second shot. Elk are tough. In conclusion, the 165 grain .308 Winchester Sierra gameking btsp will kill an elk, but I'll be switching to a 165 bonded/monolithic sp bullet next year for more reliable performance in case I hit heavy bone like a shoulder or rib. Edited to add: and to be fair to Federal, the company suggests the 165 btsp gameking round for use on medium-sized game (mule deer and deer), so kudos to Federal for making a round that did do the job on a 650 pound bull elk! Last edited by Mr. Hill; October 25, 2016 at 06:31 PM. Reason: To be fair to Federal

October 25, 2016, 11:53 AM	#34
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	hey Well, well, a followup report on one of our discussions. Thank you Mr. Hill, and congrats on your elk.

September 23, 2016, 11:37 AM	#26
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	I have seen them shed the jacket as well. But, the animal was dead close by. And, I have shot several deer with Barnes X bullets that can't come apart and did not do nearly the internal damage of the Sierra that did. So, I don't know exactly what that means. I suppose if you want to go through a shoulder and make it to the vitals on elk size game it is significant. If it is a typical broad side shot the Sierra BTSP seems to do more damage than say a Nosler Partition even when it does separate.

September 23, 2016, 11:57 AM	#27
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	I gave up on most Sierras years ago for the same reason. I have used them in 270, 7mm 30 and 375 calibers and they have come apart in all of them. Not that they won't kill, but they are a bit of a risk at times. If a bone is hit on the entrance you can expect a lot less penetration from a Sierra than other bullets with tougher construction. The only bullet maker who's bullets I have used or seen used that I rate lower then Sierra for big game is Burger. Burger will even tell you that their hunting bullets are designed to come apart, and they are truthful in that statement. It is true that such a wound is probably going to be fatal, but you will not have a good blood trail, and maybe no blood trail. If your animal falls within a few feet of the place it was hit, you go home happy. If they run into the weeds or trees and you can't find the blood, you killed that animal but don't bring it home. It dies somewhere, and you go try to find another one. Maybe with the same results. I don't like that. But that's just me. I will take a 2 MOA load with a bullet that holds 60% or more of it's weight over a 1/8 MOA load that fragments on impact for every game animal there is, except for animals that weight 20 pounds or less. I love Sierras and Burgers for prairie dogs and jack rabbits as well as paper shooting. But I don't ever shoot them at game of any kind from 70 pound or up. Not even coyotes, unless I am not intending to keep the hide.

September 23, 2016, 10:36 PM	#28
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	^^^^^^^^ +1

September 24, 2016, 09:03 AM	#30
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I've tagged some four dozen bucks. (Back in the two whitetails/year, and one mulie/yr, era in Texas.) Most were with Sierras. All were bang-flops, with only three needing a coup de grace. Never any tracking. Kinda hard for me to complain.

September 24, 2016, 11:33 AM	#31
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	Art, I have to agree, in that I have never needed 2 shots on deer with 270s 7X57, 308, or 30-06 with any Sierra. But big Nevada and Idaho Mule Deer are big in comparison to a lot of other deer, but small compared to elk. I was a very good shot and I killed every one with one shot apiece, but when I can recover 40-45 grain 30 caliber bullets from deer shot with 30-06s, and those bullets left my rifle at 165 grains, I have to say I was not impressed enough to try them on elk. 230 pound deer are big, but are very small compared to 650 -900 pound elk. Many hunters think they need a larger cartridge for elk hunting and in most cases they don't, but they should use a tougher and/or heavier bullet.

September 24, 2016, 07:00 PM	#32
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	My only comparison within the Sierra line was at 500 yards on steel. 150-grain SPBT, 165-grain HPBT and 180-grain SPBT. The 150 barely made a ding. 165, a wee bit more. But the 180 was noticeably a bit deeper with the beginning of splashback cratering. Were I to use a Sierra bullet on an elk, I'd use that 180 or maybe the 180 flat-base as the flat-base is a tougher bullet.

October 25, 2016, 08:22 PM	#35
Mr. Hill Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2015 Posts: 384	Thank you sir, and thanks to TFL!!!

October 26, 2016, 01:14 PM	#36
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	I've seen four of what I classify 'bullet failures' in my years of hunting but all four animals were harvested. First was a 165 grn Hornady Interlock shot from my 30-06, I shot a running pig at approximately 175 yards through the spine. The hole left by the bullet was impressive to say the least but I did find the jacket lodged in the bone. Second was a 180 grn Nosler Partition shot in my 300 Win Mag. I shot a small buck through the lower neck at about 35 yards, the buck fell in its tracks but there was no exit wound and no bone was hit. It was as if the bullet just disintegrated leaving a softball sized entry hole and while skinning the animal a single drop of blood was seen where the exit wound should have been. Third was an antelope I shot with a 180 grn Speer BT, 30-06, distance was about 200 yards. Bullet entered the shoulder, struck and broke a bone, then turned 90 degrees exited leaving a cloud of dust at the animals foot. After a long tracking job I ended up shooting it again in the spine. The final failure was just this year, using a Barnes 80 grn TTSX in my 243. I shot a buck broadside in the lungs at about 20 yards. The bullet key-holed on contact and while it knocked the buck down for good there was not nearly as much internal damage as I'm used to seeing from Barnes bullets and no exit hole. What I've taken from this is no matter what the manufactures say, no matter how much money you spend, bullet failures are going to happen.