.44 cal Colt Army to .45; Does it Really Work?

DLMiller · February 21, 2018, 09:01 PM

I've been shooting a .36 Colt Navy with a conversion cylinder that brings it up to .38 for about a year now. I've never had any problems with it.

So I purchased two .44s; one Colt Navy mutant and an 1860 Colt Army.

When I insert the .38 rounds into the muzzle of my .36 caliber Colt Navy barrel, the lead disappears. So, it's a slightly loose fit. It shoots fine, but the bullets sometimes tumble. But that's not what I'm worried about.

Here's my problem. When I compare my .45 lead cowboy ammo to the muzzles of my .44s, they are too big- about a 16th of an inch of lead still shows.

My caliper shows the muzzle is .439 on both guns from groove to groove. Can I fire .45 black powder lead rounds through a .439 muzzle- or am I putting my fingers at risk?

zipspyder · February 21, 2018, 09:08 PM

What make are the 44's? If brass frame do not shoot 45's out of them.

I have a Pietta Colt 1860 Army and my conversion cylinder works fine. But you have to use the shorter 45 Colt cowboy loads.

B.L.E. · February 21, 2018, 09:22 PM

My 1860 Army has a groove to groove diameter of more than .457. I know it's more than .457 because if I drive a .457 round ball into the barrel and then try to look though the barrel, there's seven points of daylight showing past the ball.
Are you sure you are not miking from land to land instead of groove to groove.

In the muzzle loading days, a rifle's "caliber" was the diameter of the barrel while it was still a smoothbore, before the rifling grooves were cut. That's why the cap and ball revolvers were called .44's and not .45's.
Ruger uses the exact same barrel that they use for their .45 Colt revolvers for their ".44" caliber Ruger Old Army revolvers.
The bullets are supposed to be a swage fit in the barrel, otherwise rifling doesn't engrave in the bullet and you have excessive blow by.

DLMiller · February 21, 2018, 09:25 PM

They are brand new steel frame Piettas. My feeling is because they shoot unjacketed lead, that it will literally squeeze through and be fine. I have black powder cowboy ammo that fits in the cylinder. But I have to convince the owners of my local firing range because they have never seen this before. It's kind of a pain really.

DLMiller · February 21, 2018, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.L.E.

My 1860 Army has a groove to groove diameter of more than .457. I know it's more than .457 because if I drive a .457 round ball into the barrel and then try to look though the barrel, there's seven points of daylight showing past the ball.
Are you sure you are not miking from land to land instead of groove to groove.

In the muzzle loading days, a rifle's "caliber" was the diameter of the barrel while it was still a smoothbore, before the rifling grooves were cut. That's why the cap and ball revolvers were called .44's and not .45's.
Ruger uses the exact same barrel that they use for their .45 Colt revolvers for their ".44" caliber Ruger Old Army revolvers.
The bullets are supposed to be a swage fit in the barrel, otherwise rifling doesn't engrave in the bullet and you have excessive blow by.

No, I'm not sure about my measurement at all. I find the caliper hard to use, and it's a cheap caliper I got off ebay.

zipspyder · February 21, 2018, 09:30 PM

It will be fine, Just make sure to only use lead bullets. My Pietta is only a few months old and I've shot Winchester 255 gr cowboy loads out of it just fine.

B.L.E. · February 21, 2018, 09:38 PM

It's a real pain to try to measure a 7 groove barrel's groove diameter. Even numbered grooves are at least opposite to each other. I suppose you could get out the old trigonometry book and look up the formula for the chord of a circle.
I was going to see what my Smith and Wesson .44 magnum measured, but it has a 5 groove barrel, but it shoots .433 roundballs nicely even though a .44 magnum normally has a .429 groove diameter.

Any lead bullet that fits in the cylinder's chamber throats should go through the barrel safely.

rodwhaincamo · February 21, 2018, 11:07 PM

An easy way to measure your bore is to drive an oversized lead ball through it and mic that.

My Pietta (2013) has a 6 groove/land bore.

Hawg · February 22, 2018, 12:19 AM

What B.L.E. said. If these guns were sold using modern method measurements they would be sold as .45's.

swathdiver · February 22, 2018, 01:12 AM

A 19th century Colt .44 cap and ball and 20th century .45 ACP are the same. Both have .440 lands and over .450 grooves. 20th century marketing!

The .36 and .38 Special are not the same, the latter being smaller, generally .357 or .358 lands.

B.L.E. · February 22, 2018, 06:49 AM

Yes, the old .36 cap and ball revolver is really a .38 and the modern .38 special is really a .36. How did that happen?
Well, when they started converting .36 cap and ball revolvers to cartridges, the cartridges had heeled bullets loaded in them so the bullets were a true .38 caliber. The only modern use of heeled bullets is in the .22 short, long, and long rifle rimfire rounds.
Then, because heeled bullets had the bearing surfaces outside the cartridge, they were susceptible to picking up dirt in the exposed bullet lube, they started using smaller bullets that were seated inside the case, in order to do that, the bullet had to be a little smaller. To deal with the accuracy compromised by the undersized bullet, they loaded hollow base bullets that were supposed to expand to fit the bore like Minié ball used in Civil war muskets.
Later, they made revolvers with barrels sized to fit the smaller inside the case bullets, but they kept the .38 nominal caliber even though they were really .357's until Elmer Keith created a new high powered version of the .38 special and renamed it the .357 Magnum going back to the true bore size in the name, and that's why .357 magnum revolvers will shoot .38 special and .357 magnum ammo interchangably. The .38 special is really a .357 special.

TruthTellers · February 22, 2018, 11:36 AM

Not sure I get the question, but any .44 caliber Pietta/Uberti that shoots .45 Colt through a conversion cylinder is going to work. The .44 caliber designation is a misnomer, it's a measure of the bore diameter, not the groove diameter.

The groove diameter is .45, what it is to the third decimal Idk, but you'd have to slug your bore to find out.

I've never slugged my 1858, but it shoots .45 Colt very, very accurately. As others have said, lead bullets only, the frames on these reproductions aren't strong like the Ruger Old Army and can't do jacketed bullets.

DLMiller · February 22, 2018, 12:09 PM

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm sure you're right. I'll slug my barrels though, so I can show it to the guys at the range.

rodwhaincamo · February 22, 2018, 01:03 PM

Along with slugging your bore you might want to add how they used to measure the bore differently back then.

Driftwood Johnson · February 24, 2018, 10:40 AM

Howdy

I have been shooting 45 Colt Black Powder ammo through conversion cylinders in '44' caliber C&B revolvers for years.

1. A caliper, particularly a cheap one is the wrong tool for measuring rifling groove diameter. The inside measuring points usually have a flat on them, which introduces an error. Even with expensive calipers. Inexpensive calipers will only make it worse.

2. As was stated, it is difficult to measure rifling, even when slugging the barrel, when there are an odd number of grooves. About the best you can do with a slug from a barrel with an odd number of grooves is measure from land to groove on the slug, then use the extension portion of the caliber to measure the height of the land on the slug, and add that to the groove to land diameter. A difficult task at best.

Standard groove diameter for 45 Colt today is .451. When I first started fooling around with conversion cylinders I slugged the barrel of my old EuroArms Remmie. It turns out the groove diameter was about .449. A little bit tight for 45 Colt, but with soft lead bullets it created no problems.

When Colt 44 caliber C&B revolvers were first modified to shoot cartridges, the 44 Colt cartridge was developed. The 44 Colt round was sized to fit the 44 caliber chambers. Of course, the rear end of the cylinders where the nipples were located was cut away. A heeled bullet of about .451 was used because that fit the rifling grooves of the C&B revolvers.

Here is a photo of some old cartridges. Left to right they are 44-40, 44 Henry Rimfire, 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 Special, and 45 Colt.

This is a Richards Conversion of the 1860 Army Colt, with a few of the 44 Colt cartridges developed for it.

DLMiller · February 25, 2018, 04:58 PM

I just got back from the range with my .45 Colt Army cartridge conversion. It fired beautifully despite all of my misgivings. Your guy's advice gave me the confidence I needed to take it to the range. Thanks a bunch!

Happy trails!

rodwhaincamo · February 25, 2018, 06:18 PM

Was it hard to convince the range officer(s)?

DLMiller · February 25, 2018, 07:38 PM

No. I explained my research and the things senor members of this forum said and they waved me in.

rodwhaincamo · February 25, 2018, 08:44 PM

Nice!

JimCunn · December 16, 2023, 04:53 PM

I've just installed a Kirst .45 acp Converter in a Uberti 1860 Army.
Looks great but haven't shot it yet.
Wish me luck.

44caliberkid · December 16, 2023, 07:43 PM

Your .36 caliber cap n ball pistol has a groove diameter closer to .375, so 357 - 358 bullets are a loose fit. That’s why they keyhole. Pure lead hollow base bullets will expand when fired and get a grip on the rifling. 44 caliber revolvers have a bore .450 or larger, that’s why you use .454 - .457 balls in them.

**44 AMP** · December 16, 2023, 08:34 PM

Pure lead and soft alloys will bump up or squeeze down quite a bit and still be perfectly safe and usually accurate.

Early pistol cartridges were loaded with heel type bullets and the widest part of the bullet was the same diameter as the case, and since lead squeezes down and all the bullets were lead, the .36s became .38s and later when .38 had become the known standard term, cartridge tech changed again, and bullets were sized to fit inside the case, and became actual ".36s" (.357-358) again, but the name ".38" stuck.

Modern .44s are loaded with ".43" (.429") bullets as a result of the same process.

JimCunn · March 26, 2024, 07:08 PM

.45 acp in Uberti 1860 works great.
Haven't tried it in Centaure yet.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 26, 2024, 08:43 PM

There's nothing as satisfying as dredging up a six-year old thread for excitement ...

joker18 · March 29, 2024, 12:37 PM

This is true. It was an old thread, however new-ish components are available or at the least better known.
I am not sure how long the Kirst Konverters have been available because I just found out about them a couple of years ago. It is a great system and much better than the conversion cylinders one has to remove to reload. Additionally I can change back to my percussion cylinder in 30 seconds.
The 45 Colt conversion is better accuracy wise that the 38 conversion for the 36 caliber Navy due to what the 44 Caliber Kid stated above. The only problem with the 1860 Pietta conversion is the little tiny front blade sight causing the revolver to shoot very high. It needs a taller front sight blade.

February 21, 2018, 09:01 PM	#1
DLMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2018 Posts: 6	.44 cal Colt Army to .45; Does it Really Work? I've been shooting a .36 Colt Navy with a conversion cylinder that brings it up to .38 for about a year now. I've never had any problems with it. So I purchased two .44s; one Colt Navy mutant and an 1860 Colt Army. When I insert the .38 rounds into the muzzle of my .36 caliber Colt Navy barrel, the lead disappears. So, it's a slightly loose fit. It shoots fine, but the bullets sometimes tumble. But that's not what I'm worried about. Here's my problem. When I compare my .45 lead cowboy ammo to the muzzles of my .44s, they are too big- about a 16th of an inch of lead still shows. My caliper shows the muzzle is .439 on both guns from groove to groove. Can I fire .45 black powder lead rounds through a .439 muzzle- or am I putting my fingers at risk?

February 21, 2018, 09:22 PM	#3
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	My 1860 Army has a groove to groove diameter of more than .457. I know it's more than .457 because if I drive a .457 round ball into the barrel and then try to look though the barrel, there's seven points of daylight showing past the ball. Are you sure you are not miking from land to land instead of groove to groove. In the muzzle loading days, a rifle's "caliber" was the diameter of the barrel while it was still a smoothbore, before the rifling grooves were cut. That's why the cap and ball revolvers were called .44's and not .45's. Ruger uses the exact same barrel that they use for their .45 Colt revolvers for their ".44" caliber Ruger Old Army revolvers. The bullets are supposed to be a swage fit in the barrel, otherwise rifling doesn't engrave in the bullet and you have excessive blow by. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

February 21, 2018, 09:38 PM	#7
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	It's a real pain to try to measure a 7 groove barrel's groove diameter. Even numbered grooves are at least opposite to each other. I suppose you could get out the old trigonometry book and look up the formula for the chord of a circle. I was going to see what my Smith and Wesson .44 magnum measured, but it has a 5 groove barrel, but it shoots .433 roundballs nicely even though a .44 magnum normally has a .429 groove diameter. Any lead bullet that fits in the cylinder's chamber throats should go through the barrel safely. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

February 22, 2018, 01:12 AM	#10
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	A 19th century Colt .44 cap and ball and 20th century .45 ACP are the same. Both have .440 lands and over .450 grooves. 20th century marketing! The .36 and .38 Special are not the same, the latter being smaller, generally .357 or .358 lands. __________________ “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” - Job 38:3

February 22, 2018, 06:49 AM	#11
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Yes, the old .36 cap and ball revolver is really a .38 and the modern .38 special is really a .36. How did that happen? Well, when they started converting .36 cap and ball revolvers to cartridges, the cartridges had heeled bullets loaded in them so the bullets were a true .38 caliber. The only modern use of heeled bullets is in the .22 short, long, and long rifle rimfire rounds. Then, because heeled bullets had the bearing surfaces outside the cartridge, they were susceptible to picking up dirt in the exposed bullet lube, they started using smaller bullets that were seated inside the case, in order to do that, the bullet had to be a little smaller. To deal with the accuracy compromised by the undersized bullet, they loaded hollow base bullets that were supposed to expand to fit the bore like Minié ball used in Civil war muskets. Later, they made revolvers with barrels sized to fit the smaller inside the case bullets, but they kept the .38 nominal caliber even though they were really .357's until Elmer Keith created a new high powered version of the .38 special and renamed it the .357 Magnum going back to the true bore size in the name, and that's why .357 magnum revolvers will shoot .38 special and .357 magnum ammo interchangably. The .38 special is really a .357 special. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

February 21, 2018, 09:08 PM	#2
zipspyder Junior member Join Date: June 13, 2017 Posts: 429	What make are the 44's? If brass frame do not shoot 45's out of them. I have a Pietta Colt 1860 Army and my conversion cylinder works fine. But you have to use the shorter 45 Colt cowboy loads.

February 21, 2018, 09:25 PM	#4
DLMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2018 Posts: 6	They are brand new steel frame Piettas. My feeling is because they shoot unjacketed lead, that it will literally squeeze through and be fine. I have black powder cowboy ammo that fits in the cylinder. But I have to convince the owners of my local firing range because they have never seen this before. It's kind of a pain really.

February 21, 2018, 09:30 PM	#6
zipspyder Junior member Join Date: June 13, 2017 Posts: 429	It will be fine, Just make sure to only use lead bullets. My Pietta is only a few months old and I've shot Winchester 255 gr cowboy loads out of it just fine.

February 21, 2018, 11:07 PM	#8
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	An easy way to measure your bore is to drive an oversized lead ball through it and mic that. My Pietta (2013) has a 6 groove/land bore.

February 22, 2018, 12:19 AM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	What B.L.E. said. If these guns were sold using modern method measurements they would be sold as .45's.

February 22, 2018, 11:36 AM	#12
TruthTellers Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2016 Posts: 3,887	Not sure I get the question, but any .44 caliber Pietta/Uberti that shoots .45 Colt through a conversion cylinder is going to work. The .44 caliber designation is a misnomer, it's a measure of the bore diameter, not the groove diameter. The groove diameter is .45, what it is to the third decimal Idk, but you'd have to slug your bore to find out. I've never slugged my 1858, but it shoots .45 Colt very, very accurately. As others have said, lead bullets only, the frames on these reproductions aren't strong like the Ruger Old Army and can't do jacketed bullets. __________________ "We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

February 22, 2018, 12:09 PM	#13
DLMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2018 Posts: 6	Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm sure you're right. I'll slug my barrels though, so I can show it to the guys at the range.

February 22, 2018, 01:03 PM	#14
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Along with slugging your bore you might want to add how they used to measure the bore differently back then.

February 24, 2018, 10:40 AM	#15
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy I have been shooting 45 Colt Black Powder ammo through conversion cylinders in '44' caliber C&B revolvers for years. 1. A caliper, particularly a cheap one is the wrong tool for measuring rifling groove diameter. The inside measuring points usually have a flat on them, which introduces an error. Even with expensive calipers. Inexpensive calipers will only make it worse. 2. As was stated, it is difficult to measure rifling, even when slugging the barrel, when there are an odd number of grooves. About the best you can do with a slug from a barrel with an odd number of grooves is measure from land to groove on the slug, then use the extension portion of the caliber to measure the height of the land on the slug, and add that to the groove to land diameter. A difficult task at best. Standard groove diameter for 45 Colt today is .451. When I first started fooling around with conversion cylinders I slugged the barrel of my old EuroArms Remmie. It turns out the groove diameter was about .449. A little bit tight for 45 Colt, but with soft lead bullets it created no problems. When Colt 44 caliber C&B revolvers were first modified to shoot cartridges, the 44 Colt cartridge was developed. The 44 Colt round was sized to fit the 44 caliber chambers. Of course, the rear end of the cylinders where the nipples were located was cut away. A heeled bullet of about .451 was used because that fit the rifling grooves of the C&B revolvers. Here is a photo of some old cartridges. Left to right they are 44-40, 44 Henry Rimfire, 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Colt, 44 Special, and 45 Colt. This is a Richards Conversion of the 1860 Army Colt, with a few of the 44 Colt cartridges developed for it. Last edited by Driftwood Johnson; February 24, 2018 at 10:49 AM.

February 25, 2018, 04:58 PM	#16
DLMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2018 Posts: 6	Success! I just got back from the range with my .45 Colt Army cartridge conversion. It fired beautifully despite all of my misgivings. Your guy's advice gave me the confidence I needed to take it to the range. Thanks a bunch! Happy trails!

February 25, 2018, 06:18 PM	#17
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Was it hard to convince the range officer(s)?

February 25, 2018, 07:38 PM	#18
DLMiller Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2018 Posts: 6	No. I explained my research and the things senor members of this forum said and they waved me in.

February 25, 2018, 08:44 PM	#19
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Nice!

December 16, 2023, 04:53 PM	#20
JimCunn Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2019 Posts: 124	I've just installed a Kirst .45 acp Converter in a Uberti 1860 Army. Looks great but haven't shot it yet. Wish me luck.

December 16, 2023, 07:43 PM	#21
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,102	Your .36 caliber cap n ball pistol has a groove diameter closer to .375, so 357 - 358 bullets are a loose fit. That’s why they keyhole. Pure lead hollow base bullets will expand when fired and get a grip on the rifling. 44 caliber revolvers have a bore .450 or larger, that’s why you use .454 - .457 balls in them.

December 16, 2023, 08:34 PM	#22
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	Pure lead and soft alloys will bump up or squeeze down quite a bit and still be perfectly safe and usually accurate. Early pistol cartridges were loaded with heel type bullets and the widest part of the bullet was the same diameter as the case, and since lead squeezes down and all the bullets were lead, the .36s became .38s and later when .38 had become the known standard term, cartridge tech changed again, and bullets were sized to fit inside the case, and became actual ".36s" (.357-358) again, but the name ".38" stuck. Modern .44s are loaded with ".43" (.429") bullets as a result of the same process. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 26, 2024, 07:08 PM	#23
JimCunn Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2019 Posts: 124	.45 acp in Uberti 1860 works great. Haven't tried it in Centaure yet.

March 26, 2024, 08:43 PM	#24
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,466	There's nothing as satisfying as dredging up a six-year old thread for excitement ... __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

March 29, 2024, 12:37 PM	#25
joker18 Junior Member Join Date: May 11, 2012 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 2	This is true. It was an old thread, however new-ish components are available or at the least better known. I am not sure how long the Kirst Konverters have been available because I just found out about them a couple of years ago. It is a great system and much better than the conversion cylinders one has to remove to reload. Additionally I can change back to my percussion cylinder in 30 seconds. The 45 Colt conversion is better accuracy wise that the 38 conversion for the 36 caliber Navy due to what the 44 Caliber Kid stated above. The only problem with the 1860 Pietta conversion is the little tiny front blade sight causing the revolver to shoot very high. It needs a taller front sight blade.