NRA instructors and the new online course

[ncrypt]

Hey guys, I don't know how many NRA instructors we have on here, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on the new online training for the Basic Pistol Course.

https://onlinetraining.nra.org/onlin...ooting-course/

One thing that stands out to me is you can print your Certificate after the online portion. I'm wondering what the incentive will be to get hands on, live fire training.

Also, 60 bucks is a lot for the online thing which means folks may expect to pay less for the Instructor time.

[NoSecondBest]

Here in WNY, you still have to take a course through a certified instructor. Also, you don't get live fire time when taking the course. I don't believe the on-line course will provide the best training for someone who is new and has a lot of questions. I've been a trainer for around twenty years and that's just my opinion.

[jmhyer]

As I understand it, while you may be able to print a certificate, it will only indicate that you completed and passed Phase I. You don't get full credit for the NRA Basic Pistol course until you've completed both phases.

I think this is a great idea. Being able to complete the "classroom"-type educational material in the comfort of your own home and on your own time is very appealing. I have known a lot of people who had a hard time attending a number of basic pistol-type courses because of the rigidity/inflexibility of having to spend half the day with a live teacher at the teacher/instructor's appointed time. Also, it goes a step further toward guaranteeing that all the material is presented (and presented in the way it should be presented). I eliminates personal bias and variability and just adds universal uniformity to the classroom-type educational material.

As to the cost of $60, this also seems like a reasonable amount. Most full-day (half-classroom/half-actual trigger time) courses I've seen in my area cost upward of $120 anyway (often $200-300). There just need to be instructors available who are willing to recognize the need and to provide only the second half of such a course for a reasonable price.

[Don P]

It's real nice that the NRA shoots us (instructors) in the foot with this. No pun intended. As stated the student must complete the range portion with a certified NRA instructor and then we as instructors are required to go through the NRA web site for the sign off the same as if we conducted the classroom part. There is the rub, as instructors what is a fair price for our range time and home time to complete the process for the client/student. Personally I feel the NRA did a disservice to folks like myself that took the time to take a 2 day course so we could teach/instruct the basic pistol course. As stated the class environment is removed from the equation as we were instructed to get the folks involved (class participation) while conducting the class. Just my .02 worth

[BCGlocker]

I agree with Don P. NRA just took 50% of potential income from NRA instructors; yet the instructors still have to spend 100% marketing and out of pocket costs to find students for the remaining 50% income. It would be a different story if NRA would send us students (free leads) that completed the Phase I.

[BarryLee]

I’ve done a good bit of training in a corporate environment and agree that traditional classroom training is still the best. However, like it or not more and more organizations are moving to on-line training for their internal and external training. There is obviously a cost reduction associated with doing this and it also offers a certain amount of consistency that you don’t always get with traditional classroom training. We also see more and more trainees wanting to take training this way so they can learn at their own pace and convenience.

Like it or not this is a trend that is going to continue, so the best thing to do is not to fight it, but look for ways of making it work. Someone mentioned getting leads from the NRA of people who completed the classroom portion which sounds like a good idea. Also, the NRA could give trainees the names of qualified trainers in their area that can help them complete the course.

[ncrypt]

all great points. I appreciate you guys sharing your thoughts on this.

I agree it's not a bad thing, but it will make it interesting for us to determine a new cost. I'm not sure folks will want to pay an extra 60 bucks on top of what I already charge.

In looking at Phase II lessons plans, it will require classroom time to re-enforce what they learned online. You can't cover what they have in the lessons plan at a range. Well, I can't. Personally, I prefer students have some hands on experience prior to taking them to the range.

I have a feeling a lot of instructors may just do a range thing only and no classroom time.

[45Gunner]

I do not advocate the online training. I run a monthly class for the CCW permit. There is no time limit set for my class as I know that students have a million questions that only a live person can answer.

As a Certificated Flight Instructor, I have to renew my license every two years. I take an online course to renew my Certificate. That course can take up to 60 hours and lots of off line studying. But in order to take the course, a CFI must have already obtained his license by attending a school.

I could see an online course for shooters if a renewal requirement was shoved into the face of qualified shooters. (Well, not really...but it would be the least painful way to go if it became a reality.) By taking the time to teach my students in a small classroom environment, I will know them when it comes time to go to the range. I will have a good idea of what I need to look for in each individual. I would think an instructor would be at a disadvantage if they didn't know what makes their student tick.

Flying and Shooting are two disciplines that can be deadly if proper safety and techniques are not taught. Both require a "hands on" method of teaching and while "online training" can impart some knowledge to the student, nothing can take the place of a qualified instructor imparting his advice at exactly the right time. True learning takes place when the actions of the student are correctly altered to gain the desired results. No computer can do that.

[JohnMoses]

I'm an NRA instructor in Illinois. My understanding is ALL instruction must be in person,as the ISP pulled the instructor certificates from those who tried do do it on line. Not only does this smell like a money grab for the NRA, but if they discontinue the packets, It could leave us Illinois instructors in a bad way. I e-mailed the NRA with my concerns, but have not heard back.

[rburch]

From what I've seen, the Online portion covers the types of actions, parts of guns and cartridges, and how ammo works, etc.

Then phase 2 covers the actual handling, loading, unloading, stance, sighting, etc. In the classroom, and then goes out to the range for the live fire.

In my area where pretty much every range offers a beginning handgun class for around $125.

So that is where my total cost for my classes have to be.

With NRA charging them $60 to do the online training, I can charge a maximum of $65 for my part, or I can take them to the range where they see signs plastered all over the place for a cheaper class than the one I'm giving them...

I have to rent ranges to do the class, so my expenses are $50 an hour to rent a classroom, and $150 per hour on the range.

So I have to spend at least $200 and that's if I can cover everything in just 2 hours (which I doubt)

To break even I will need at least 4 students per class.

That's not including ammo costs.


In addition the NRA Requires a maximum of 2 shooters for every Certified Instructor, which means my options are:

Only allow 2 people to shoot at a time.

Pay other Instructors to observe for the range period.

Each student is supposed to shoot about 100 rounds, going 2 at a time that isn't going to happen in an hour, which adds at least another $150 to my costs.

Or I can add to the costs to pay a 2nd instructor, but even that only offers 4 shooters at a time. Which means I can have 8 students or offer less than 30 minutes of range time each.


Finally, to find out what the students actually see in Phase 1 I have to pay $60 and take it myself which is completely stupid.


To sum up, I have no problem with an online portion, if they offered such at $20-$30 per student I would back it fully, providing they also offered the online access to Instructors for free.

The current plan takes about half my income while also increasing the costs for me to run the classes.


Basically it means I'm looking hard at a USCCA, Rangemasters, ICE Training, etc instructor development class in the near future, and I'm unsure if I will even bother to renew the NRA Credentials when they expire...

[raimius]

Depending on how the details work out, it makes sense.

Online training can provide a good "baseline" of academic understanding. There still needs to be in-person training, in my opinion. The two should be complementary.

The Air Force does something similar. Multiple online courses must be completed before going to Instructor Pilot courses (which have both academic and hands-on components).

[ncrypt]

rburch, That's exactly the situation I find myself in.

BTW - as an instructor, you should have received an email that gave you sign-in instructions to navigate the class freely. I reviewed the course with no problem.

[JohnMoses]

I got that email but the link was broken. My email to the NRA was not returned. Perhaps the Millennial generation wants to do everything on line, but I find most people benefit from face to face instruction.

[sliponby]

I've been conducting NRA Basic Pistol Courses since January 2012. I never, repeat, never received a student through the NRA. All came through my outreach to local gun stores, speaking to civic groups, an occasional article I write for the local newspaper and word of mouth.

I no longer conduct NRA courses. I have classes scheduled for the next 4 Saturdays with 10-12 students per class, and I'm forming classes beyond that. I do not agree with this change, regardless of what the trends may be. I don't have to follow them and my students are getting excellent instruction from my courses. I always supplemented the NRA course with additional information and handouts. At the end of the classroom session, I had a pretty good feel of the abilities and mindset of each student before we started the range portion. I don't like the idea of not having that advantage. YMMV.

I regularly attend advanced training to stay sharp and abreast of the latest tactics and techniques. Just recently attended a MAG 20 with Mas Ayoob. I do my dead level best to give my students the best basic pistol course I can deliver and encourage them to continue their training and practice.

I hold no animosity with the NRA, although I have let their education dept. know by phone and email that I don't agree with this change.

[DPI7800]

@ rburch

When did the NRA standard change to a 2 to 1 student to instructor ratio? The last instructor level class I took from the NRA 2 1/2 years ago it was 5 to 1 day time and 3 to 1 night time and I'm certain it has been that way for a really long time.

[JimPage]

I taught NRA Basic Pistol for several years. Gave it up when the state (county)requirement for the course conflicted with the NRA rules. NRA has become a typical bureaucracy that I no longer will deal with. The state and county are also typical bureaucracies I won't deal with. My interest was/is only to get people to be safe and competent. That does not seem to be the objective of any bureaucracy!

[Don P]

Luckily my class fees charged by the range I use are $20 per student or $150 which ever is less and range fee's are $15 per student. In order to teach/instruct for the Florida CCWP I have to maintain my NRA cert for pistol instructor. So in stating this a student that comes to me with the online proof has to come up with $35 before I put a buck in my pocket. Now what do I charge to make my time worth my while. As some others have found, I learned of the NRA doing the online courses at the 2 day class for instructors. As they say life goes on and we have to deal with it.

[rburch]

This is from the Phase 2 lesson plan available on the NRA Instructor Website.

STUDENT-TO-INSTRUCTOR RATIO
During the range exercises for the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course, a one-to-one student-to-instructor ratio on the firing line is encouraged whenever possible.

If this is not possible, the ratio on the firing line should not exceed two shooters for every NRA Certified Pistol Instructor.

Whenever possible, use the coach/pupil method, with one student coaching the shooter on the line through the proper technique. This promotes student learning and provides an extra pair of eyes on the shooting line for greater safety.

Additionally, it is recommended that a range safety officer oversee the safety of the entire line. The range safety officer’s responsibility is to ensure safety, not to give individual instruction.

Depending upon the range facilities used and the number of instructors available, it may be advantageous to split the class into two or more separate groups or to use two relays for the range sessions.

So they really want 1 certified instructor for each student with a 2nd student acting as a safety coach in each lane and a RSO overseeing everything...

For the moment though they will allow 2-1...

[johnwilliamson062]

I've sat in a couple basic pistol courses with different instructors.
The quality of the instructors and content covered varied widely.
The shooting portion varied widely.
One class had a 5:1 ration with some new shooters mixed in and it wasn't safe.
I felt much better int he course where it was 1:1 on the line.

[Pahoo]

Iowa is fairly new to "Shall-Issue" and many of the classes offered, list that it conducted by a certified NRA instructor. I'm seeing a bunch of replies that seem to stray away from this. ....

Is an NRA certification required to teach these classes. I also see that some states accept the basic Hunter Ed classes for issuing of the permit. I don't feel that this is adequate and glad that this route was shot down or at least postponed, in Iowa. I'm not indicating that an instructor has to have this NRA certification as I know some LEO's that are more than qualified to teach. ..

I guess my basic question is; How good is good enough?? ......


Be Safe !!!

[Don P]

Is an NRA certification required to teach these classes. I also see that some states accept the basic Hunter Ed classes for issuing of the permit. I don't feel that this is adequate and glad that this route was shot down or at least postponed, in Iowa. I'm not indicating that an instructor has to have this NRA certification as I know some LEO's that are more than qualified to teach

The state will decide what instructor criteria will be acceptable along with any other program they see meets state requirements that they set

[johnwilliamson062]

Basic pistol never made any sense to me as a CCW course. It just seemed like someone looked at the NRA classes available and decided that was the best. In Ohio one can also take the OPOTA firearms segment. It is a MUCH MUCH better class for CCW.

[4V50 Gary]

Concur with NoSecondBest.

One thing about instructing a class is that as an instructor, you test the communication level between yourself and your students. You can also do hands-on demonstration in class without live ammunition so as to get the students acquainted with their firearm or a variety of firearms before going to the range. This helps build confidence and competence and also ensures that safe handling practices are drilled into the student. As an instructor, you don't want to take any one who is dangerous or careless with a firearm out to the range.

You can't do those things online and the online/distant learning students would be total strangers to the instructor. They will have various levels of competence and safety practices. With the online training, all you're really doing is playing range offcer (or range safety officer).

I can see why the NRA does it though as it generates more revenue directly to the NRA. Second, it makes the training more readily accessible to anyone who can't attend classes because of distance, time committments (work, family, school).

[rburch]

According to the lesson plans for phase 2 (the in person training)

The actual handling of the gun is still covered in person in the classroom, or dry on a cold range before moving on to live fire.

The online training focuses more on the action types, parts, components of ammo and how they work, etc.

I honestly don't believe those topics require or really benefit from in person instruction.

As I'm looking into transitioning, I fully expect to spend a minimum of 1-2 hours in the classroom covering the safe handling, and getting students acquainted with the handguns they will be using.

That said I fully agree with your last sentence.

[ncrypt]

Yes, you have to provide some hands on prior to the range. However, the NRA promotes it as if there is no classroom time after the online portion. Like others, I will be making sure students can handle a firearm safely prior to the range. Plus, how could you possibly teach someone to clean a firearm at the range.