Breathalyzer test required for Homecoming Dance - Page 9

MLeake · September 19, 2011, 07:07 PM

So, langenc, your point is that the Europeans actually deal with people harshly for committing the offense? Instead of raising legal ages, performing arbitrary tests, and generally annoying those who aren't doing anything?

Ironic, when the Land of Liberty has fallen behind Europe as far as the concept of liberty goes...

oneounceload · September 19, 2011, 07:11 PM

In many Euro countries a DUI means loss of license for life and any gun permit is also gone for life - if that happened here, things might change as cab companies exploded

MLeake · September 19, 2011, 07:38 PM

oneounceload, as somebody with a family member who required massive reconstruction after a drunk driver nailed her car, I don't have a problem with certain levels of DUI bringing a potential lifetime ban.

oneounceload · September 19, 2011, 08:15 PM

I am NOT disagreeing with you at all..................my first wife wound up in a wheel chair with all of that BS, so I understand

Just saying how it amazes me that some folks get multiple DUIs or felony arrests or similar BS and still get out to do it again

If they lost it all for that offense, it might make some think twice - in a good way

Carry_24/7 · September 21, 2011, 10:04 AM

Langec; we don't live in Italy. There's no point in comparing countries on this subject.

But, Italian TV does rule compared to ours...if you've ever been to Italy, you know what I mean

MLeake · September 21, 2011, 10:08 AM

Carry24/7, there is a great point in comparing the two. We could also add Germany, which is another country where teens are allowed to drink for years before they are allowed to drive. Want to guess how their DUI rates compare?

While we are at it, Scandinavian countries have fewer sexual taboos; yet they also have lower rates of teen pregnancy and venereal disease.

One of our major problems in the US is the creation of taboos. They only challenge kids to find ways to get around them. Our Puritan vestiges really cause a lot of problems.

booker_t · September 21, 2011, 12:16 PM

MLeake, indeed. It's the old "bird out of the cage" effect.

Carry_24/7 · September 21, 2011, 12:56 PM

This is not a geography lesson, this is about people raised in entirely different cultures. These countries also broadcast adult movies on public TV after 10pm, but I guess that's ok, they allow their kids to drink, smoke, club.... If that's all ok, then thats you and yours.

Other countries do a lot of things we don't do and vice versa.... But hey, we can agree to disagree.

MLeake · September 21, 2011, 01:26 PM

Carry24/7, for a country that theoretically was founded on the major premise that individuals are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the US seems to have fallen a long way toward the government regulating things it should have left to parents.

There is no reason (at least, not one that should satisfy the Constitution) that the government should be able to tell a parent that they can't let their teenager drink in their home.

There is no reason the government should consider telling parents what video games they can buy for their kids.

Edit: For that matter, Carry24/7, if you don't want your kids to watch adult movies - don't let your kids watch adult movies. That should be your right, as a parent, shouldn't it? Do you really need to relinquish that right to any level of government? If so, what other parental prerogatives do you think you should delegate?

Laws have been on the books for centuries as far as dealing with people who harm others; whether they are acting under the influence of alcohol, drugs, religious fervor, pornography, or video games is (or should be) inconsequential.

Yet everybody wants to keep passing more laws, as though that will fix the problem - instead of nailing those who harm others, when they do so.

Because we all know that redundant legislation is the fix for societal ills - except, of course, when it comes to guns.

Carry_24/7 · September 21, 2011, 01:44 PM

Mleake; on a lot of levels I agree with you. It's up to parents first to protect our kids, and believe me, we're protective of our kids. In doing that, we accept the protective measures of the school, it's not like they're getting cavity searches in there.

This is all my opinion, and we all raise our kids differently, which is why me and the wife are so protective in the first place! Especially if different is the opposite of our house (no drinking, adult movies, smoking, s#x, etc... For kids).

I'll accept being the bad guy on this one, 100%.

But I do agree with you that it's not a government responsibility.

MLeake · September 21, 2011, 02:04 PM

Speaking of adult movies... several years ago, a then-girlfriend of mine walked in on her teenage son and a buddy, who were watching an adult tape. Don't know where they got it.

Anyway, she dealt with it in a way that amused me no end.

She didn't yell, she didn't get mad. She just sat down next to the two boys and said, "Ok, let's critique this..."

She then pointed out, in clinical detail (she was a Nurse Practitioner) how some things were just unlikely in real life; some would be painful; some could cause certain types of injuries, etc.

Both boys, and especially her son, were embarrassed, and wanted to squirm under the couch.

Her son never tried to sneak another porno into the house, though.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 21, 2011, 02:51 PM

Hmmm!

Let's not wander into policing teenage sexuality. Do we have anything more to say about the OP?

Yep, get those rotten kids off my lawn. Where are their rotten parents?

Glenn

hogdogs · September 21, 2011, 03:13 PM

I am utterly surprised this thread stayed anywhere near on track this long...

Brent

Hitthespot · September 21, 2011, 03:51 PM

............and I never even expected to get more than one or two replies.

While there were a lot of opinions given, unless I missed reading some responses, we never really answered the question: Is breath testing every high school student who enters the dance a violation of their civil rights and / or the 4 amendment?

What no lawyers in here?

hogdogs · September 21, 2011, 04:18 PM

Nope... Kids are not afforded the exact same civil rights as adults...

One issue I battled in school was "illegal search and seizure"... I was always trying to stand for something (so I wouldn't fall for anything). I tried to refuse permission for them to search "my" locker with out a warrant... well, they did as they wished including cutting off MY lock to search.

Nothing was in there to find... I was told that the locker was their locker on their property so I had no right to refuse search and wasn't entitled to have my lock replaced on their dime.

My parents even backed me and helped me battle the system...

I argued that a landlord of a rental house had no right to search or allow search of a tenants house just because he "owned" the home.

Since I was issued the locker I took this to mean I should have the same "expectation of privacy" as a rent house tenant... I lost...

My parents were told "kids do not have the civil rights afforded everyone else as a student of the public school system...

So I reckon your case will parallel mine...

But I sure ain't a lawyer...

Brent

Isk · September 22, 2011, 02:21 PM

Our apologies OP. Someone should have answered the question. No, it is not a violation of their constitutional rights under the current case law.

Carry_24/7 · September 22, 2011, 11:17 PM

Isk; the question had been answered, even in the post directly before yours.

shortwave · September 23, 2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Is breath testing every high school student who enters the dance a violation....

After reading the reference trophyhunter gave in post #199, I'd say not. Especially if the school can show valid reasoning such as prior incidents showing cause for such testing. Too, according to the reference, locker searchs,car searchs etc, are legal as well.

Not a lawyer but you may want to check your state laws or reference 'case laws' in your state.

csmsss · September 23, 2011, 09:12 AM

I don't see this as a civil rights issue in any way, shape, or form. The students are not compelled to take a breathalyzer - it's just a condition of an event. If they don't want the breathalyzer, they don't have to go to the dance. Has nothing to do with their age or status as students. It's just a question of whether the contractual conditions of attending the dance violate public policy in any way.

zukiphile · September 23, 2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitthespot

What no lawyers in here?

Yes, and I am not the only one.

This is an issue in which I find the reasoning more interesting than the conclusion.

Hitthespot · September 23, 2011, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Yes, and I am not the only one.

This is an issue in which I find the reasoning more interesting than the conclusion.

lol... Yep, your a lawyer. Would you care to elaborate?

zukiphile · September 25, 2011, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Would you care to elaborate?

In some way that I haven't in posts 30, 33, 36, 37, 40, 57, 60, 63, 66, 68, 70 and 76?

I've read reasons people do not like the teens being breath tested as a requirement for admission to a dance, but I've yet to read a compelling basis for concluding that it is a fourth amendment violation.

In Ohio, drivers can be stopped at checkpoints for a breath test. If an adult with the whole array of civil liberties available can be stopped that way, I don't see a teen would have a reasonable expectation that his sobriety would not be monitored at school.

Hitthespot · September 25, 2011, 09:08 AM

Well I've talked to enough parents around here now to know one thing. Most of them if not all, like it and wish they would do it on the way out of the dance too. The last parent I spoke to said the school is way too big, there are way to many problems, and anything the school can do to keep the children safe and on the straight is a blessing to her.

So there you have democracy at work. Who am I to argue with the masses.

after all they do say, "It takes the village to raise the child."

hogdogs · September 25, 2011, 11:02 AM

Quote:

"It takes the village to raise the child."

And all along I thought they said "It takes a child to raze a village" and I tried to be that kid...

Brent

langenc · September 25, 2011, 02:45 PM

Langec; we don't live in Italy. There's no point in comparing countries on this subject.

No we dont leve in Italy.

The point was some countries enforce their laws. I didnt read 40 or 50 posts back so I dont know how this discussion went.

I guess the orig question was about a school requiring breathalizer to attend a dance.

Couple questions-perhaps I already asked-did the adults attending also have to blow in the thing?? Oh you say-different rules.. Dont all states have some DUI standard? Maybe the adults should blow every day..

Wonder how adults are doing now since I suspect most schools dont allow smoking anywhere on the grounds(campus)?? Probably smokeless weed.

September 21, 2011, 10:08 AM	#206
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Carry24/7, there is a great point in comparing the two. We could also add Germany, which is another country where teens are allowed to drink for years before they are allowed to drive. Want to guess how their DUI rates compare? While we are at it, Scandinavian countries have fewer sexual taboos; yet they also have lower rates of teen pregnancy and venereal disease. One of our major problems in the US is the creation of taboos. They only challenge kids to find ways to get around them. Our Puritan vestiges really cause a lot of problems. Last edited by MLeake; September 21, 2011 at 10:41 AM.

September 21, 2011, 02:51 PM	#212
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Hmmm! Let's not wander into policing teenage sexuality. Do we have anything more to say about the OP? Yep, get those rotten kids off my lawn. Where are their rotten parents? Glenn __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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September 19, 2011, 07:07 PM	#201
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	So, langenc, your point is that the Europeans actually deal with people harshly for committing the offense? Instead of raising legal ages, performing arbitrary tests, and generally annoying those who aren't doing anything? Ironic, when the Land of Liberty has fallen behind Europe as far as the concept of liberty goes...

September 19, 2011, 07:11 PM	#202
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	In many Euro countries a DUI means loss of license for life and any gun permit is also gone for life - if that happened here, things might change as cab companies exploded

September 19, 2011, 07:38 PM	#203
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	oneounceload, as somebody with a family member who required massive reconstruction after a drunk driver nailed her car, I don't have a problem with certain levels of DUI bringing a potential lifetime ban.

September 19, 2011, 08:15 PM	#204
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	I am NOT disagreeing with you at all..................my first wife wound up in a wheel chair with all of that BS, so I understand Just saying how it amazes me that some folks get multiple DUIs or felony arrests or similar BS and still get out to do it again If they lost it all for that offense, it might make some think twice - in a good way

September 21, 2011, 10:04 AM	#205
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	Langec; we don't live in Italy. There's no point in comparing countries on this subject. But, Italian TV does rule compared to ours...if you've ever been to Italy, you know what I mean

September 21, 2011, 12:16 PM	#207
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	MLeake, indeed. It's the old "bird out of the cage" effect.

September 21, 2011, 12:56 PM	#208
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	This is not a geography lesson, this is about people raised in entirely different cultures. These countries also broadcast adult movies on public TV after 10pm, but I guess that's ok, they allow their kids to drink, smoke, club.... If that's all ok, then thats you and yours. Other countries do a lot of things we don't do and vice versa.... But hey, we can agree to disagree.

September 21, 2011, 01:26 PM	#209
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Carry24/7, for a country that theoretically was founded on the major premise that individuals are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the US seems to have fallen a long way toward the government regulating things it should have left to parents. There is no reason (at least, not one that should satisfy the Constitution) that the government should be able to tell a parent that they can't let their teenager drink in their home. There is no reason the government should consider telling parents what video games they can buy for their kids. Edit: For that matter, Carry24/7, if you don't want your kids to watch adult movies - don't let your kids watch adult movies. That should be your right, as a parent, shouldn't it? Do you really need to relinquish that right to any level of government? If so, what other parental prerogatives do you think you should delegate? Laws have been on the books for centuries as far as dealing with people who harm others; whether they are acting under the influence of alcohol, drugs, religious fervor, pornography, or video games is (or should be) inconsequential. Yet everybody wants to keep passing more laws, as though that will fix the problem - instead of nailing those who harm others, when they do so. Because we all know that redundant legislation is the fix for societal ills - except, of course, when it comes to guns.

September 21, 2011, 01:44 PM	#210
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	Mleake; on a lot of levels I agree with you. It's up to parents first to protect our kids, and believe me, we're protective of our kids. In doing that, we accept the protective measures of the school, it's not like they're getting cavity searches in there. This is all my opinion, and we all raise our kids differently, which is why me and the wife are so protective in the first place! Especially if different is the opposite of our house (no drinking, adult movies, smoking, s#x, etc... For kids). I'll accept being the bad guy on this one, 100%. But I do agree with you that it's not a government responsibility.

September 21, 2011, 02:04 PM	#211
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Speaking of adult movies... several years ago, a then-girlfriend of mine walked in on her teenage son and a buddy, who were watching an adult tape. Don't know where they got it. Anyway, she dealt with it in a way that amused me no end. She didn't yell, she didn't get mad. She just sat down next to the two boys and said, "Ok, let's critique this..." She then pointed out, in clinical detail (she was a Nurse Practitioner) how some things were just unlikely in real life; some would be painful; some could cause certain types of injuries, etc. Both boys, and especially her son, were embarrassed, and wanted to squirm under the couch. Her son never tried to sneak another porno into the house, though.

September 21, 2011, 03:13 PM	#213
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I am utterly surprised this thread stayed anywhere near on track this long... Brent

September 21, 2011, 03:51 PM	#214
Hitthespot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 227	............and I never even expected to get more than one or two replies. While there were a lot of opinions given, unless I missed reading some responses, we never really answered the question: Is breath testing every high school student who enters the dance a violation of their civil rights and / or the 4 amendment? What no lawyers in here?

September 21, 2011, 04:18 PM	#215
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Nope... Kids are not afforded the exact same civil rights as adults... One issue I battled in school was "illegal search and seizure"... I was always trying to stand for something (so I wouldn't fall for anything). I tried to refuse permission for them to search "my" locker with out a warrant... well, they did as they wished including cutting off MY lock to search. Nothing was in there to find... I was told that the locker was their locker on their property so I had no right to refuse search and wasn't entitled to have my lock replaced on their dime. My parents even backed me and helped me battle the system... I argued that a landlord of a rental house had no right to search or allow search of a tenants house just because he "owned" the home. Since I was issued the locker I took this to mean I should have the same "expectation of privacy" as a rent house tenant... I lost... My parents were told "kids do not have the civil rights afforded everyone else as a student of the public school system... So I reckon your case will parallel mine... But I sure ain't a lawyer... Brent

September 22, 2011, 02:21 PM	#216
Isk Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2011 Location: Alaska Posts: 206	Our apologies OP. Someone should have answered the question. No, it is not a violation of their constitutional rights under the current case law.

September 22, 2011, 11:17 PM	#217
Carry_24/7 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Posts: 801	Isk; the question had been answered, even in the post directly before yours.

September 23, 2011, 09:12 AM	#219
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I don't see this as a civil rights issue in any way, shape, or form. The students are not compelled to take a breathalyzer - it's just a condition of an event. If they don't want the breathalyzer, they don't have to go to the dance. Has nothing to do with their age or status as students. It's just a question of whether the contractual conditions of attending the dance violate public policy in any way.

September 25, 2011, 09:08 AM	#223
Hitthespot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 227	Well I've talked to enough parents around here now to know one thing. Most of them if not all, like it and wish they would do it on the way out of the dance too. The last parent I spoke to said the school is way too big, there are way to many problems, and anything the school can do to keep the children safe and on the straight is a blessing to her. So there you have democracy at work. Who am I to argue with the masses. after all they do say, "It takes the village to raise the child."

September 25, 2011, 02:45 PM	#225
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Langec; we don't live in Italy. There's no point in comparing countries on this subject. No we dont leve in Italy. The point was some countries enforce their laws. I didnt read 40 or 50 posts back so I dont know how this discussion went. I guess the orig question was about a school requiring breathalizer to attend a dance. Couple questions-perhaps I already asked-did the adults attending also have to blow in the thing?? Oh you say-different rules.. Dont all states have some DUI standard? Maybe the adults should blow every day.. Wonder how adults are doing now since I suspect most schools dont allow smoking anywhere on the grounds(campus)?? Probably smokeless weed.