Protection From Theft/Ambush While At The Range

[Frisco]

Originally Posted by Skippy

I have no sympathy for people who leave their cars unlocked and valuables get stolen, particularly when firearms are stolen. I have little sympathy for people who leave firearms in their locked vehicles and are stolen anyway.

I may pity them, but I'm unsympathetic.

Just had a FB post the other day on our local neighborhood page that a Springfield 9mm was stollen from a car. "We ALWAYS lock our car and NEVER leave the gun in it..... Except last night."

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

I wish there was a LIKE button for that.

As soon as I got home from work, my patrol rifle, my shotgun, my duty belt and pistol went from my take home rig into the safe I installed in the laundry room of our old house ("pretirement") which was just inside the door that went from the garage into the laundry room vestibule before you got to the kitchen. I parked my rig in the garage, but still, that one extra step of removing them to secure storage was better than having two department owned NFA long guns and my issue sidearm come up "missing" because of laziness or complacency.

Once home, then MY own SD/CCW pistol came out of the safe (same make/model/caliber as my duty gun). This way O.P.S. could never try to rip me for "unauthorized use of city property".

I never wanted to have my name/face on the news for losing his guns because he was stupid.

[FireForged]

I have regularly kept a firearm out of sight in my locked car for more than 30 years. Sure, someone might decide that they are willing to commit a felony and steal my gun. Bad people do bad things all the time and there is always a risk that their bad deeds my impact the lives of good people. Its life

[eflyguy]

My ex's vehicle was broken into and her purse taken while she was exercising at a local park. Her revolver was still in the vehicle when she returned.

Why she always insisted on taking her purse when the park is a mile from home, then why she DIDN'T carry the weapon while exercising in a secluded, wooded park where assaults on females are not unheard of, well, those are questions best left to rest. Like I said, my ex.

[Frisco]

Yeah. Their bad deeds coupled with the irresponsible behavior of the so-called victims (like idgits who get valuables stolen from their cars) can and will affect the lives of others who have a tendency NOT to make bad/stupid/irresponsible decisions.

Then again, trying to get some people to understand common sense, logic, and reason is about as useful as trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

One thing is dead certain....a gun that is NOT left in a car will not be stolen FROM the car.

[FireForged]

Yeah. Their bad deeds coupled with the irresponsible behavior of the so-called victims (like idgits who get valuables stolen from their cars) can and will affect the lives of others who have a tendency NOT to make bad/stupid/irresponsible decisions.

Then again, trying to get some people to understand common sense, logic, and reason is about as useful as trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

One thing is dead certain....a gun that is NOT left in a car will not be stolen FROM the car.

I am familiar with the protectionist mentality. I guess there is plenty of room for it in this rather large world of ours. I simply do not subscribe to the usual protectionist tenets. I will however, abide by the laws regarding proper storage (where they exist). If you want to call it being an idgit, stupid or irresponsible..you can. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wisdom.

I feel that this subject matter is worth the discussion. Sadly, when people feel that disparaging or rude remarks are necessary to make a point, the thread is often locked. The firingline has quite a culture of locking threads over little of nothing. Ultimately it does not really help the curb appeal of this forum. Most of us try to avoid such a result but ya know, it doesnt always work out.

Best regards

[MagDiddy]

I always carry one I don't intend to shoot. Nobody is going to rob a gun store but someone alone at an outdoor range seems like a good place for a criminal to find a gun to steal.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by MagDiddy

I always carry one I don't intend to shoot. Nobody is going to rob a gun store but someone alone at an outdoor range seems like a good place for a criminal to find a gun to steal.

My FFL has been robbed at gun point. After two or three burglaries, the robbery was what finally convinced him to move his shop out of the location where had had been for twenty years.

And, yes -- he always carries, and he was carrying that day. A pistol is a weapon, not a magic talisman. If they have the drop on you ...

[Frisco]

Originally Posted by MagDiddy

I always carry one I don't intend to shoot. Nobody is going to rob a gun store but someone alone at an outdoor range seems like a good place for a criminal to find a gun to steal.

Uh huh....

My buddy, and retired FTO, then gun shop owner George Lind (RIP) dirt napped some chud who tried to rob his gun shop on North Oracle back in the early 90's.

Guy came in with his girlfriend, picked up a shotgun from a floor display, dropped in a 12 gauge slug from his pocket, demanded money and caught a pair of 38 JHPs to his chest.

Darwin Prize Awarded.

[Frisco]

Originally Posted by FireForged

I am familiar with the protectionist mentality. I guess there is plenty of room for it in this rather large world of ours. I simply do not subscribe to the usual protectionist tenets. I will however, abide by the laws regarding proper storage (where they exist). If you want to call it being an idgit, stupid or irresponsible..you can. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wisdom.

I feel that this subject matter is worth the discussion. Sadly, when people feel that disparaging or rude remarks are necessary to make a point, the thread is often locked. The firingline has quite a culture of locking threads over little of nothing. Ultimately it does not really help the curb appeal of this forum. Most of us try to avoid such a result but ya know, it doesnt always work out.

Best regards

I am also familiar with the diffusion of responsibility.

Claiming that (your words follow)

"I have regularly kept a firearm out of sight in my locked car for more than 30 years. Sure, someone might decide that they are willing to commit a felony and steal my gun. Bad people do bad things all the time and there is always a risk that their bad deeds my impact the lives of good people. Its life"

Is a perfect example of sluffing off responsibility to others and assuming none of your own. Good for you. It's the same sort of "nuh uh" argument or "It ain't my fault" excuse that is worked to death when one small, tiny shred of personal responsibility could be taken at zero cost could prevent "the bad people who do bad things to good people" from having the ability and opportunity to DO those bad things.

It's an especially weak argument to make when you acknowledge that "bad people do bad things all the time...". How about if that gun you so proudly leave in your car gets stolen and used to kill your neighbor? Probable? No, maybe not...but possible? Yes, IF it's left in the car.

How about if you take 3 seconds to take it inside? The odds of it being stolen from your car drop to ZERO. But, of course...it wouldn't be your fault anyway because well...bad people and risks and excuses and blah blah blah

It's nothing short of negligent behavior.

[Blue Jays]

At typical outdoor ranges with limited user traffic my technique is to visit with attentive, savvy, and likeminded friends.
We naturally cannot thwart every situation, like if ten Special-Forces-turned-insane-criminal-evildoers happened upon us.
We never leave firearms completely unattended to check targets, either. Someone stays behind to babysit belongings.

[JohnKSa]

Is a perfect example of sluffing off responsibility to others and assuming none of your own. Good for you. It's the same sort of "nuh uh" argument or "It ain't my fault" excuse that is worked to death when one small, tiny shred of personal responsibility could be taken at zero cost could prevent "the bad people who do bad things to good people" from having the ability and opportunity to DO those bad things.

It's an especially weak argument to make when you acknowledge that "bad people do bad things all the time...". How about if that gun you so proudly leave in your car gets stolen and used to kill your neighbor? Probable? No, maybe not...but possible? Yes, IF it's left in the car.

How about if you take 3 seconds to take it inside? The odds of it being stolen from your car drop to ZERO. But, of course...it wouldn't be your fault anyway because well...bad people and risks and excuses and blah blah blah

Any time an issue is boiled down to pure black vs. white something is being lost.

1. A person doesn't suddenly acquire the mindset of a murderer when they steal a gun. Pretending that the illegal acquisition of a gun (however easy) is going to be the key issue in the death of an innocent is a pretty significant oversimplification.

2. Different people are going to have different ideas about what is an acceptable amount of security for an unattended gun. I think we can all agree that leaving it in a store is negligent. I think we can all agree that locking it in a high-quality gun safe that is bolted to a concrete floor is responsible. Somewhere between those two extremes is where the line will be drawn, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone will draw it in exactly the same place. There are people out there who feel strongly that any unattended gun needs to be locked in a gun safe while others feel that having it in a locked house is sufficient. Others feel a locked car is sufficient. Others believe that a locked car is ok if there's an additional security measure such as a secure car safe that's bolted to the chassis.

3. Circumstances vary from person to person. Assuming that there are always "zero cost" alternatives to leaving a gun in a car is an oversimplification. There are certainly circumstances where there is no other option other than not carrying. Given the time, effort and money required to carry in some places, it's obvious that some folks feel that carrying is very important and therefore being forced to not carry wouldn't be "zero cost". My state actually has a law forcing employers to allow employees to keep guns in their locked car at work. Getting the law passed wasn't easy and the effort required to get it passed wasn't expended because people felt that not being able to carry a gun on the way to/from work was "zero cost".

Maybe we could try just a little harder to understand that our opinions are not everyone's opinions, nor are our procedures the only right way. That's the happiness and light version.

Here's the practical version: This is a discussion forum. It's for discussion. Jumping right from "I disagree" to "Everyone who doesn't do it like I do is negligent" is problematic in that context. There are some topics where that kind of harsh response is legitimate but the righteous rage response is definitely overworked.

[reubenray]

For a person getting ready to go to a range for the first time is this something I should be concerned about. The range I am going to is in a small rural town. I do have one question is where are the range marshals or employees at?

[Blue Jays]

@reubenray...be practical, reasonable, thoughtful, and aware...yet no need to feel killers lurk at every range.
Enjoy your visit and have lots of fun.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by reubenray

The range I am going to is in a small rural town. I do have one question is where are the range marshals or employees at?

Every range is different, and not all ranges have RSOs (Range Safety Officers) on duty at all times.

[Moonglum]

Originally Posted by reubenray

For a person getting ready to go to a range for the first time is this something I should be concerned about. The range I am going to is in a small rural town. I do have one question is where are the range marshals or employees at?

It's something you should reasonably take into account because it's a real thing that happens.

The best way to avoid it is to take a friend to the range with you and have one do over watch while the other shoots

[bamaranger]

The two bad guys involved in the big FBI Miami shoot out 30 yrs or so ago, ambushed and murdered a guy at a remote spot while he was plinking. If memory serves, that's where the Mini14 used in the death of three of the agents was acquired. I could wrong about the Mini however.

I lock the gate on our private/club range behind me, and typically carry a handgun on my person full time anyhow. I've grown to despise the state run public range near home.....too many idiots.

Guns get stolen from vehicles all the darn time, I see it in the paper on a regular basis. A rock or hammer will open any locked vehicle via the window, every time. About the only way I could rationalize keeping a firearm in a vehicle is if the vehicle is equipped with some type of designated, tough, lock box , car safe or maybe a serious quality locking rack. Even then, your rolling the dice. Just because one has kept a firearm in a vehicle 30 yrs does not promise that it will not be stolen at some point in the future. When that stolen firearm is then used in a crime, perhaps in a homicide , perhaps of another officer, I cannot understand how one could live with themselves. I'm with Frisco on this one.

[FITASC]

I have use public ranges, BLM land, and now a commercial range open to the public and members and I have never seen any of this in over 40 years. With no RSOs at any of them either. Folks call a cold range and folks go change targets; folks come over and chit chat about what you're shooting, etc. My time at ranges is my "alone time"; my de-stress time if you will - at least when shooting pistol and rifle; shotguns are a social gun for fun.

[FireForged]

Is a perfect example of sluffing off responsibility to others and assuming none of your own. Good for you. It's the same sort of "nuh uh" argument or "It ain't my fault" excuse that is worked to death when one small, tiny shred of personal responsibility could be taken at zero cost could prevent "the bad people who do bad things to good people" from having the ability and opportunity to DO those bad things.

If you want to allow the possibility that some criminal will commit a felony, break into your car and steal a firearm- deprive you of a right that many enjoy in many places around the Country, you can.. but I wont.

Call it what you will. I wish you the best

[GarandTd]

It's not necessarily as easy, but houses get broken into as much as cars. Are we all stupid for keeping guns where we think they are safe and secure? I don't leave guns on my dashboard in a parked car, I don't leave unattended guns on the bench, I don't leave guns leaning against the living room window. They are secure enough to keep honest people and children away

[FITASC]

And as long as you leave the political bumper stickers, the Buckmarks and other decals off your vehicle that might indicate gun ownership, and do not leave any valuables in plain sight, there is no reason why your vehicle would be targeted over any other.
I wonder of a Biden or Bernie sticker might make you even less of a potential target?

[FireForged]

It's not necessarily as easy, but houses get broken into as much as cars. Are we all stupid for keeping guns where we think they are safe and secure? I don't leave guns on my dashboard in a parked car, I don't leave unattended guns on the bench, I don't leave guns leaning against the living room window. They are secure enough to keep honest people and children away

This makes perfect sense to me but some people here seemingly have a rather draconian sense of what "responsible" means. Leaving a firearm hidden inside of a locked vehicle should not shock the conscience. I imagine them driving around with a nascar helmet and 12 point roll cage in their daily driver.. you know, because it might be irresponsible not to.

If you know or should have known that someone breaking into your car is probable or even "likely", I might be on board with some honest criticism but that is not the case here. I do not consider it probable or likely that someone is going to break into my car. I consider it merely possible. Negligence, indifference, recklessness or irresponsibility is often qualified with something more than simply saying that someone failed to safeguard against ALL things possible.

The next thing you know, people will claim that reasonableness demands that that you carry in a level 6 holsters with steel lanyard attached to your body and biometric or individualized RF locking device. Heck, maybe we dont carry weapons loaded at all.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by FireForged

This makes perfect sense to me but some people here seemingly have a rather draconian sense of what "responsible" means. Leaving a firearm hidden inside of a locked vehicle should not shock the conscience. I imagine them driving around with a nascar helmet and 12 point roll cage in their daily driver.. you know, because it might be irresponsible not to.

If you know or should have known that someone breaking into your car is probable or even "likely", I might be on board with some honest criticism but that is not the case here. I do not consider it probable or likely that someone is going to break into my car. I consider it merely possible. Negligence, indifference, recklessness or irresponsibility is often qualified with something more than simply saying that someone failed to safeguard against ALL things possible.

How does wearing a helmet and using a roll cage for your personal protection relate to not storing a firearm in a car for concern that it may be stolen and used against another person? I imagine you’re going for a comparison that shows what you see as a similar abundance of caution, but the motivations of the person in your example versus what is being discussed are pretty different (at least to me).

My guess is the rate of thefts from automobiles exceeds the rate of people using firearms for self defense. It may well not be overly likely that your car will be broken into, but the same is likely even more true about needing a firearm to defend yourself. If it seems reasonable to prepare for the latter, it seems odd to dismiss the former (again, at least to me).

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[FireForged]

How does wearing a helmet and using a roll cage for your personal protection relate to not storing a firearm in a car for concern that it may be stolen and used against another person?

I am simply referencing to the protectionist mindset. A hyper sense of safeguarding against danger. thats all

If it seems reasonable to prepare for the latter, it seems odd to dismiss the former (at least to me).

I prepare for the risk of theft by locking my car and keeping the weapon out of sight. I never said to dismiss any attempt at security. If you do not want to leave a gun in your car, dont. Still, laws allow for it in many places for good reason.

[TunnelRat]

To clarify, I don’t think the law should prohibit a person from keeping a firearm in a car. At times I have to do this myself in order to follow the rules associated with certain establishments.

Would I personally keep a weapon locked in my car when I am at home? No. My home is harder to break into than my car. Even if the argument is that worrying that a stolen firearm could be used for nefarious purposes is “protectionist”, a firearm has monetary value. It’s my property and I try to minimize the chances it could be stolen. Now in the event the car is locked in a locked garage rather than parked on a street I would agree the difference between being in the home as opposed to in a car decreases a lot, imo.

As I said, I don’t believe the government should prohibit someone from keeping a firearm in their car. Do I think it shows a degree more of personal responsibility to minimize the time for which a firearm is stored in a car as opposed to a home? Yes. Do I think it’s odd to consider it not likely that a car will be burglarized while seemingly considering it likely that a firearm will be needed (to the point where it is regularly kept on your person or in your vehicle)? Yes. But my personal judgements aren’t law, nor do I want them to be.

It doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our personal opinions in a forum like setting, and we should all be able to do so politely (with that last part not directed at anyone in particular).


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[FITASC]

My guess is the rate of thefts from automobiles exceeds the rate of people using firearms for self defense. It may well not be overly likely that your car will be broken into, but the same is likely even more true about needing a firearm to defend yourself. If it seems reasonable to prepare for the latter, it seems odd to dismiss the former (again, at least to me).

Well, if we're going to GUESS, I would guess more guns are stolen from homes than cars........................