.357 sig and 9mm - Need some help from you handloaders

Mike H · April 23, 2000, 03:47 PM

Guys,

As a non-handloader myself, this question is by way of curiosity I'm not attempting any new wave reloading experiment here.

9mm +P+ can be loaded out to shoot 115 grain bullets at maybe 1300 fps, an equivalent velocity in .357 Sig shooting the exact same bullet would be over 1500 fps, so of course everyone is now interested in moving to this 9mm "Hyper" round because of its far superior destructive potential. My question is this, if the 9mm can be loaded to 2 clear stages above its standard pressure loading (+P and +P+) then does a 9mm cartridge have the physical load space to go to a fourth pressure level in order to match the performance of the larger .357 Sig cartridge, and if so, why hasn't someone offered a beefed up gun to shoot this round. The benefits are obvious, more rounds for the same mag size and an easier cartridge shape to handle for reloading purposes.

Also can someone tell me the pressures involved in standard 9mm versus +P and +P+.

Regards,

Mike H

swampgator · April 23, 2000, 06:12 PM

Mike,

In the early 80's attempts were made by IPSC shooters to push the 9mm into major caliber levels for a power factor over 175. Problem is a 9mm isn't the best choice for this type of Hot Rodding. The 9mm has limited case capacity, and packing enough powder into it to it to make the velocities you want would create extremely dangerous pressure levels.

The .357 SIG uses a .40 S&W as a "parent" case. It has a larger case capacity which allows it be loaded to "hotter" level without suffering case failure.

If you have to have a .355 bullet at 1500 fps do it with the .357 SIG. Pushing a 9mm bullet to those extremes out of a 9mm case is a recipe for disaster.

Gator

Banzai · April 24, 2000, 02:59 PM

What does "BOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!" mean?

How do you say "KKKKAaaaaaaaaaBBBOoooooooommm"?

Wanna be called "Lefty"?

Anyway, 9mm is 35,000psi, +P is 38,500, and +P+ is anything above that and is neither SAAMI regulated/monitored/suggested for handloaders.

Never mind that the bullets currently available for 9mm are built for a certain velocity range FOR A PURPOSE!! Over that, they overexpand and seperate the core from the jacket and/or fragment, thus REDUCING their effectiveness, not increasing it.

BBBBBOOOOOMMMMMMM!!

Nice gun, Lefty!

------------------
A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!

swampgator · April 24, 2000, 07:12 PM

Lefty beats being called "faced" I guess.

If Banzai's post didn't spell it out, this is really, a BAD IDEA.

Gator

WESHOOT2 · April 25, 2000, 07:40 AM

I've made 9x19 'Major' before (Major stupid!), but just for fun, as it's a bit hard on the launch platform. LOL

If you want more power get a bigger gun...38Super...9x23...but it is a bigger gun!

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

Deathwish · April 26, 2000, 09:22 AM

This is a curious post. COULD a hand gun be built to handle say...60,000 PSI? I understand that for many rifles that is nothing, but... COULD IT BE DONE??
My line of hought is that very compact, fast burning powders could be developed if their were stronger guns... Perhaps a VERY thick titanium auto-pistol?
DW

------------------
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
-Rudyard Kipling

**Mal H** · April 26, 2000, 11:31 AM

"COULD a hand gun be built to handle say...60,000 PSI?"

Sure, they are called Thompson/Center handguns. ( www.tcarms.com ) Don't forget that the casing has to be able to withstand the pressure as well as the gun. A strong gun with a weak casing is just another definition of KB.

Mike H · April 26, 2000, 01:29 PM

I'm a little disappointed.

If I ask a simple question like "can it be done" or "why hasn't it been done", I expect some technical explanation about case sizing versus pressure curve, powder selection and burn rate, case tensile strengths etc etc, not, BBBOOOOOMMMMM and BBBBAAAANNNNGGG. I'm interested and I'd like to learn more about the limits of certain cartridge designs and why it simply isn't possible to cram a 1.5x load of Bullseye under a 90 grain .355 FMJ and reach 1600 fps out of a 4" Bbl.

All I've learnt is the pressure loadings of standard and +P 9x19mm. I'm still wondering for example what pressure Remington's 115gr +P+ police JHP develops, or Federals equivalent 9BPLE, I'm still wondering what pressure .357 Sig reaches and what 9x19 could do if it was loaded to similar pressures (as it must be possible to design a gun to withstand them).

Give me a break guys I'm just trying to learn.

Mike H

bk40 · April 26, 2000, 10:57 PM

Mike,

You might want to check out Oehler's M43 PBL http://www.oehler-research.com/model43.html

I'm still wondering for example what pressure Remington's 115gr +P+ police JHP develops, or Federals equivalent 9BPLE, I'm still wondering what pressure .357 Sig reaches and what 9x19 could do if it was loaded to similar pressures

Stephen Ewing · April 26, 2000, 11:53 PM

The 9mm has a relatively small case capacity. When you start to hit the edge of that capacity, you wind up seating the bullet into the powder occasionally, creating a "compressed load." When this happens, pressures spike straght up, which is bad. Variations in case thickness, cleanliness of the interior of the brass, and powder settling mean that it gets hard to predict which ones will compress. Because of the volume of pistol reloading, adding powder is usually done automatically, and might be as much as .2 grains high for most handloaders, or even worse if the measure gets really wacky or is at a factory. All of this happening at once in an already insanely hot load will lead to a very unpleasant experience. The volume of pistol reloading means that all of that will happen at once, sooner or later, and you'll wish it hadn't. If you're lucky, it's usually easy to tell after the fact, since your wrist now hurts, the case on the ground has a blown primer, that bullet was the flyer, and it probably separated upon impact. If you're not lucky, your autopsy will explain everything.

And then there's barrel wear. Not to mention that this will beat up your action.

In a nutshell, the answer to your question is: Living on the edge means you get cut every so often. Never gamble with explosives, and never wager body parts. I did it once as a stupid teenager, and won. Please, be smarter. If you want faster, get a 9X21, or a .357, or something similar, and forget about the Parabellum.

Steve

April 23, 2000, 03:47 PM	#1
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Guys, As a non-handloader myself, this question is by way of curiosity I'm not attempting any new wave reloading experiment here. 9mm +P+ can be loaded out to shoot 115 grain bullets at maybe 1300 fps, an equivalent velocity in .357 Sig shooting the exact same bullet would be over 1500 fps, so of course everyone is now interested in moving to this 9mm "Hyper" round because of its far superior destructive potential. My question is this, if the 9mm can be loaded to 2 clear stages above its standard pressure loading (+P and +P+) then does a 9mm cartridge have the physical load space to go to a fourth pressure level in order to match the performance of the larger .357 Sig cartridge, and if so, why hasn't someone offered a beefed up gun to shoot this round. The benefits are obvious, more rounds for the same mag size and an easier cartridge shape to handle for reloading purposes. Also can someone tell me the pressures involved in standard 9mm versus +P and +P+. Regards, Mike H

April 23, 2000, 06:12 PM	#2
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Mike, In the early 80's attempts were made by IPSC shooters to push the 9mm into major caliber levels for a power factor over 175. Problem is a 9mm isn't the best choice for this type of Hot Rodding. The 9mm has limited case capacity, and packing enough powder into it to it to make the velocities you want would create extremely dangerous pressure levels. The .357 SIG uses a .40 S&W as a "parent" case. It has a larger case capacity which allows it be loaded to "hotter" level without suffering case failure. If you have to have a .355 bullet at 1500 fps do it with the .357 SIG. Pushing a 9mm bullet to those extremes out of a 9mm case is a recipe for disaster. Gator

April 24, 2000, 02:59 PM	#3
Banzai Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 275	What does "BOOOOOOOOMMMMM!!" mean? How do you say "KKKKAaaaaaaaaaBBBOoooooooommm"? Wanna be called "Lefty"? Anyway, 9mm is 35,000psi, +P is 38,500, and +P+ is anything above that and is neither SAAMI regulated/monitored/suggested for handloaders. Never mind that the bullets currently available for 9mm are built for a certain velocity range FOR A PURPOSE!! Over that, they overexpand and seperate the core from the jacket and/or fragment, thus REDUCING their effectiveness, not increasing it. BBBBBOOOOOMMMMMMM!! Nice gun, Lefty! ------------------ A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration! You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!

April 24, 2000, 07:12 PM	#4
swampgator Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 619	Lefty beats being called "faced" I guess. If Banzai's post didn't spell it out, this is really, a BAD IDEA. Gator

April 25, 2000, 07:40 AM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	I've made 9x19 'Major' before (Major stupid!), but just for fun, as it's a bit hard on the launch platform. LOL If you want more power get a bigger gun...38Super...9x23...but it is a bigger gun! ------------------ "All my ammo is factory ammo"

April 26, 2000, 09:22 AM	#6
Deathwish Member Join Date: March 13, 2000 Posts: 79	This is a curious post. COULD a hand gun be built to handle say...60,000 PSI? I understand that for many rifles that is nothing, but... COULD IT BE DONE?? My line of hought is that very compact, fast burning powders could be developed if their were stronger guns... Perhaps a VERY thick titanium auto-pistol? DW ------------------ "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Rudyard Kipling

April 26, 2000, 11:31 AM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,948	"COULD a hand gun be built to handle say...60,000 PSI?" Sure, they are called Thompson/Center handguns. ( www.tcarms.com ) Don't forget that the casing has to be able to withstand the pressure as well as the gun. A strong gun with a weak casing is just another definition of KB.

April 26, 2000, 01:29 PM	#8
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	I'm a little disappointed. If I ask a simple question like "can it be done" or "why hasn't it been done", I expect some technical explanation about case sizing versus pressure curve, powder selection and burn rate, case tensile strengths etc etc, not, BBBOOOOOMMMMM and BBBBAAAANNNNGGG. I'm interested and I'd like to learn more about the limits of certain cartridge designs and why it simply isn't possible to cram a 1.5x load of Bullseye under a 90 grain .355 FMJ and reach 1600 fps out of a 4" Bbl. All I've learnt is the pressure loadings of standard and +P 9x19mm. I'm still wondering for example what pressure Remington's 115gr +P+ police JHP develops, or Federals equivalent 9BPLE, I'm still wondering what pressure .357 Sig reaches and what 9x19 could do if it was loaded to similar pressures (as it must be possible to design a gun to withstand them). Give me a break guys I'm just trying to learn. Mike H

April 26, 2000, 10:57 PM	#9
bk40 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 1999 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1,004	Mike, You might want to check out Oehler's M43 PBL http://www.oehler-research.com/model43.html I'm still wondering for example what pressure Remington's 115gr +P+ police JHP develops, or Federals equivalent 9BPLE, I'm still wondering what pressure .357 Sig reaches and what 9x19 could do if it was loaded to similar pressures

April 26, 2000, 11:53 PM	#10
Stephen Ewing Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2000 Posts: 329	The 9mm has a relatively small case capacity. When you start to hit the edge of that capacity, you wind up seating the bullet into the powder occasionally, creating a "compressed load." When this happens, pressures spike straght up, which is bad. Variations in case thickness, cleanliness of the interior of the brass, and powder settling mean that it gets hard to predict which ones will compress. Because of the volume of pistol reloading, adding powder is usually done automatically, and might be as much as .2 grains high for most handloaders, or even worse if the measure gets really wacky or is at a factory. All of this happening at once in an already insanely hot load will lead to a very unpleasant experience. The volume of pistol reloading means that all of that will happen at once, sooner or later, and you'll wish it hadn't. If you're lucky, it's usually easy to tell after the fact, since your wrist now hurts, the case on the ground has a blown primer, that bullet was the flyer, and it probably separated upon impact. If you're not lucky, your autopsy will explain everything. And then there's barrel wear. Not to mention that this will beat up your action. In a nutshell, the answer to your question is: Living on the edge means you get cut every so often. Never gamble with explosives, and never wager body parts. I did it once as a stupid teenager, and won. Please, be smarter. If you want faster, get a 9X21, or a .357, or something similar, and forget about the Parabellum. Steve