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Old May 21, 2010, 10:06 AM   #1
Darren007
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7.62 Nato and primers...

Hi all,

Just purchased a Springfield M1A and was set to start reloading. I read the section about reloading for gas operated semis in the Sierra manual as well as the data listed in the Hornady manual for ".308 Winchester Service Rifle".

The Hornady loads are listed as having used "Winchester WLR" primers in their M1A test rifle, so thats what I used. Worked up some loads and headed for the range.

Shortly after getting there and setting up my gear, i started chatting with the the range officer. After admiring my new rifle he noticed I was using my own reloads. No problem but then he asked what components I used. As soon as i mentioned the Winchester primers he immediately forbade me from shooting anymore unless i had "mil-spec ammo or reloads that comformed to mil-spec".

Specifically he stated that the primers I used were dangerous in a gas operated semi auto rifle. He warned that using anything other then mil-spec primers was a guaranteed slam fire waiting to happen. Fair enough I thought, so i packed up my stuff headed home.

So now my questions. Should I not have used these primers despite being listed in the manual? Im fully aware of what a slam fire is, but my understanding was that it was caused by primers not fully seated in the primer cup, not from using non-mil spec primers. Am I wrong in this assertion? And if so, why would Hornady use Winchester primers in their test rifle (also an M1A)?

I did a lil' research on the net and now im afraid I'm even more confused. It seems like Im getting 50/50 answers to this one. Everything from "I've never used mil-spec primers ever in my M1A and have never had a problem" to "NEVER use non-mil spec primers or you WILL have a slam fire".

What are your guy's thoughts?
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Old May 21, 2010, 10:15 AM   #2
crockett007
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I think you ran into a range nazi. I use the same primers in the same weapon as well as my DPMS and have never had a slam fire. Not to mention that slam fires can and have occured with "mil-spec" primers that are not properly seated. Primer seating is the key, so basically what he is telling you is that all reloads or handloads are suspect?.

You are on a range with the muzzle pointed safely down range when you lock and load.....?

The guy basically ruined your day, and that was wrong. There are no product warnings for Winchester primers in semi-auto rifles regarding "slam fires" that I know of.

Hyper paranoia - If it were me, I'd complain to the range management, and find another place to shoot where you won't be subjected to an interrigation
by an autocratic overseer.

regards

Last edited by crockett007; May 21, 2010 at 10:21 AM.
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Old May 21, 2010, 10:44 AM   #3
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Quote:
I think you ran into a range nazi.
+1
I'm an R.S.O. at a public range. All I'm going to ask about your ammo is " Are you shooting soft points or hollow points? We don't allow FMJ on this range"
BTW, the No FMJ rule is dictated by the range's insurance company.

Now if the weapon did slam fire, I would ask you to clear and safe the weapon. Then I would ask you to walk it off the line and have it checked for malfunctions by a gunsmith. That's for your safety and the safety of other shooters.
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Old May 21, 2010, 10:53 AM   #4
Slamfire
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but my understanding was that it was caused by primers not fully seated in the primer cup, not from using non-mil spec primers.
That is conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom is that ONLY high primers cause slamfires. And this is 100% incorrect.

I do believe that slamfires can occur with high primers, but the primary cause of slamfires are overly sensitive primers.

Slamfires due to mechanical issues, such as the hammer following the bolt, are real, but this is a mechanical defect and will cause a slamfire with all ammo.

Mil Spec primers are less sensitive than commerical primers.

Take a look at the primer of a chambered, but not fired round. It will be dimpled. That is due to the free floating firing pin in the M1a bolt. Given a sensitive enough primer, that free floating firing pincan, and has, ignited primers resulting in slamfires. It has happened with military ammunition, though I have more reports of military ammunition slamfiring in the Garand due to its longer and heavier firing pin.

I think the Range Officer was a bit too strick with Winchesters, but I would have kicked you off the range had you been using Federal Primers. Federal primers are the most sensitive primers around, most reported slamfires are with Federals.
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Old May 21, 2010, 12:18 PM   #5
res45
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+1 on what Slamfire said,I load for several SKS rifles of different country of origins with free floating firing pins. I've only experienced one slamfire in five years and it wasn't with my reloads.

I pretty much use the CCI#34 LR primer most of the time but I have experiments with Win. LR in both the nickel and brass cup versions and had no problem I take precautions to make sure my primer pockets are clean and uniform and that all my primer are seated properly. Not all free floating firing pin are the same,the dimple mark is totally different between the Chinese and the Yugo,it can be different even in same make of rifle as well as the pins protrusion.

One thing to remember is to never to drop the bolt on a chamber round,let the bolt strip the rd. from the magazine to cut down on the bolt speed.

Here is a pic of four different rds. from my Chinese SKS with various primers used and the affects of the primer strike as stripped from the magazine. I no longer use the Rem cases with the SR primers,as I only had a few and there history now. The CCI SRBR primers seemed to be a bit softer than any of the others although I never had one slamfire,it actually appears worse than it actually is.
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Last edited by res45; May 21, 2010 at 12:25 PM.
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Old May 21, 2010, 12:28 PM   #6
Tomas
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I've had a slam fire in my DPMS AP4 (7.62 NATO), but it was due to the knucklehead who loaded them (Me) not seating the primers deeply enough. I have since made sure that my primers are deeply seated, and stick to CCI for it, as they seem to be the toughest primers not specifically designated as military.

My M1A has never had one, even with loads where I wasn't really paying attention to the primer depth because I was new at reloading back in 1995 when I started (who is it again God protects? fools and small children?). It seems to be more forgiving than the DPMS.

With the dearth of primers out there, it may be tough to find the proper military primers, or even CCI. Federals ARE very sensitive, so avoid those for this rifle. Live and learn and be safe.
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Old May 21, 2010, 02:15 PM   #7
hagar
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Winchester small rifle primers ARE dangerous in semi-autos, but the large rifle primers are fine. Next time you go, take the same ammo, and tell the range nazi you used those CCI military primers. He will never know..
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Old May 23, 2010, 12:35 PM   #8
Darren007
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Thanks for the replies everyone. After reading everyone's responses and doing a little more research, I'm thinking these rounds are probably safe to shoot. But in the interest of "just in case", I think in the future I'll just use the mil-spec primers from CCI. One less thing to potentially worry about.
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Old May 24, 2010, 11:39 PM   #9
Tim R
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I've used a ton of CCI 200's in my Garands without a problem.

I would uniform the primer pockets unless you have USGI match brass you are loading.

Federal primers do seem to be at the root of most slam fires in service rifles.

Like others have said next time you run into the range nazi and he askes the same question, just say you loaded with the mil spec CCi's and he will never know the difference.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:26 AM   #10
geetarman
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I asked a similar question to a range officer here at Rio Salado. He said there should be no problem with commercial primers at all. I was curious as to using Federal Premium ammunition 168gr SMK in my M1A. Those rounds do NOT have a crimp and they fed and fired just fine. I have since loaded up my own handloads in commercial brass and WLR primers and have no problems.

I really do not think there is a problem with using components off the shelf today in military platforms. I load commercial brass in .223 with WSR primers and have no problems with that either,


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Old May 25, 2010, 08:47 AM   #11
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Over the years I've seen more then a few so called "slam fires" , most were incorrectly blamed on the primers.

When you run across a slam fire, on yours or anyone else's rifle, before you start blaming primers or anything else, take a gander and the unfired reloads for that gun. Run them through a Wilson or simular case gage, I bet you will find that the problem is the shoulder wasnt set back to specs. That WILL cause slam fires in gas guns. M14/M1As more so then ARs.

In my 30+ years of HP shooting, I never ran across a "slam fire" where, when I was able to check the reloads, did I find them all to be within specs. This is the reason I carry a Case Gage with me when I'm running a range, if I suspect impropertly sized reloads, I check them, if they don't fit the gage, I have the ammo removed from the firing line.

So take it for what its worse, I'm sure for liability purposes, if Winchester Primers cause slam fires, Winchester would have some sort of warning not to use them in gas guns.

I've never had a problem with Winchester Primes, but I must confess, I use Fed Match Primers in my M1A, but thats because its worked in my gun, accuracy wise, and I see no reason to change, NOT BECAUSE I'M AFRAID OF SLAM FIRES WITH WINCHESTER PRIMERS.

Having said that, if it bothers you, dont use winchester primers. The thing is Shooting is 90% mental, if that little doubt is laying in the back of your mind, then by all means dont use them, one less thing to worry about. There are enough grimlins out there, real or imagined, that we dont need another one.
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Old May 25, 2010, 09:24 AM   #12
riverwalker76
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The range officer is full of beans! To put it politely.

Whenever Olin ran the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant they used standard Winchester LR primers in both their .30 cal Army Piercing Incendiary #M14 and their .30 Cal. Ball Frangible #M22 cartridges. IN all of the others they used the equivalent of the CCI#34 primer.

Next time you run into the guy set him straight. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:06 PM   #13
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When you run across a slam fire, on yours or anyone else's rifle, before you start blaming primers or anything else, take a gander and the unfired reloads for that gun. Run them through a Wilson or simular case gage, I bet you will find that the problem is the shoulder wasnt set back to specs. That WILL cause slam fires in gas guns. M14/M1As more so then ARs.

In my 30+ years of HP shooting, I never ran across a "slam fire" where, when I was able to check the reloads, did I find them all to be within specs. This is the reason I carry a Case Gage with me when I'm running a range, if I suspect impropertly sized reloads, I check them, if they don't fit the gage, I have the ammo removed from the firing line.
Very interesting.

I have always been an advocate of full length resizing semi auto cases, in fact small base sizing. And sizing to gage minimum.

You did not say as much, but the ammunition you gauged too long, you did not find high primers?

If so, then as the bolt is crush fitting the case to the chamber, that free floating firing pin must be tapping the primer with enough force to ignite the primer.

Am I wrong on this?
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Old May 30, 2010, 09:45 AM   #14
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I've never had doubling with Winchester primers

I used to use the even more sensitive Federal primers in M1 and M1A rifles, and never had a problem, but then I full length size and case gauge everything. I've shot countless thousands of Winchester Large and Small Rifle primers, with never a pierce or a double.

I have had doubling in the 7.62x39 with some really soft Berdan primers that were available for awhile from PMC.
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Old May 30, 2010, 10:55 AM   #15
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I have had a double with Winchester primers in a 7.62X39 SKS. That was a wake up call.

Service rifles use a "floating firing pin" and the closing of the bolt can produce a light strike on the primer. Therefore it is "recommended" that any ammo made for "service rifles" use primers that are manufactured with heavier materials than a standard primer used in a bolt action rifle or one where the firing pin is retained untill released.

Some older "service rifles" will have more play in the firing pin chanel, and that is why in the Granad M1, the M1A and SKS it is WISE to use the Mil Spec primers to avoid slamfires. Military requires all ammo that they purchase to be made to these specs. So use of Mil Supplus ammo is no problem, your reloads, your choice and your liability.

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