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Old June 8, 2015, 04:29 AM   #1
5.56RifleGuy
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What happens if you forget your stamp?

I know the best answer would be dont forget, but what happens if you legally own an NFA item, but forget to have a copy of your stamp on you?

What happens if you are unable to immediately produce the stamp for the ATF agent?

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Old June 8, 2015, 04:56 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56RifleGuy View Post
I know the best answer would be dont forget, but what happens if you legally own an NFA item, but forget to have a copy of your stamp on you?

What happens if you are unable to immediately produce the stamp for the ATF agent?

Thanks,
Devin
You get to call your lawyer from jail.
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Old June 8, 2015, 04:59 AM   #3
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Nothing and I have to say been shooting at gun ranges for over 30 year's and never seen an atf agent at one asking to see stamps.
But as a precautionary measure I keep a copy in all of my range bags and pictures of each stamp on my phone.
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Old June 8, 2015, 06:47 AM   #4
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"You get to call your lawyer from jail"

Okay, are you just guessing or do you have some sort of source or experience?

As for never seeing it happen, I haven't ether, but if it were to happen, I'm curious as to what they do. It seems like a lot of trouble to jail someone when a minor amount of investigation would prove that the item was not illegally held.

Is not carrying the stamp a crime in itself?
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Old June 8, 2015, 07:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 5.56RifleGuy View Post
"You get to call your lawyer from jail"

Okay, are you just guessing or do you have some sort of source or experience?

As for never seeing it happen, I haven't ether, but if it were to happen, I'm curious as to what they do. It seems like a lot of trouble to jail someone when a minor amount of investigation would prove that the item was not illegally held.

Is not carrying the stamp a crime in itself?
In Texas, for example, merly having a registered and NFA compliant item is a feloney. Tex. Penal Code § 46.05(a). The NFA paperwork is to demonstrate that you qualify for a particular "defence against prosecution" and thus most cops will let you go at that.

But if you don't have your stamp on you, you cannot demonstrate that you qualify for that defence, and a LEO will proceed to process you as the armed felon the law presumes you to be by default until you prove your innocence.

forgetting the stamp should be treated as forgetting the very NFA item itself.
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Old June 8, 2015, 07:29 AM   #6
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Im sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying. You are saying that Texas state law says that you are commiting a felony by possessing an NFA regulated item, but you can't be charged if you have a stamp?
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Old June 8, 2015, 08:04 AM   #7
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Im sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying. You are saying that Texas state law says that you are commiting a felony by possessing an NFA regulated item, but you can't be charged if you have a stamp?
Texas law says posession of an NFA item, registered and Federaly legal, is a felony within TX. Your NFA paperwork does not exempt you from prosecution.

***
Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) knuckles;
(6) armor-piercing ammunition;
(7) a chemical dispensing device;
(8) a zip gun; or
(9) a tire deflation device.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
***

You can still be prosecuted for otherwise lawfull posession of an NFA item. The law just provides you some legal wiggle-room. The people to watch out for are the wildlife and forest authories. The ATF and regular LEO'S are not likely at all to even ask for your paperwork.

Last edited by Blackbook; June 8, 2015 at 08:12 AM.
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Old June 8, 2015, 08:15 AM   #8
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Interesting. I'd take it that not all states are set up this way?
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Old June 8, 2015, 10:55 AM   #9
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One of the above posts gives good advice

I carry a ziplock with copies of all my stamps in my range bag. A redundant one in my ammo box AND have pics of them all on my phone.

The chance of me not having one of those sources with me is slim. If it happens and the requesting officer wants to make an issue of my possession, then i might end up in jail for a bit.

Use my phone calls to get the wife to bring the paperwork down. You might waste a cpl hours sitting around but you wont end up in court or convicted.

You DO have the proper paperwork. It just wasnt with you at the time.
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Old June 8, 2015, 11:00 AM   #10
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Is not carrying the stamp a crime in itself?
No, but as Blackbook pointed out, some states criminalize the owning of NFA weapons. In those states, it is an affirmative defense against prosecution to produce the paperwork. In short, you are presumed to be breaking the law until you can prove you're not. Several states are like this.

Quote:
It seems like a lot of trouble to jail someone when a minor amount of investigation would prove that the item was not illegally held.
It'll depend on a number of factors. The weapon could be confiscated at the very least. The owner may have to resort to legal action to get it back. They could push for prosecution. Even if the case were to be dropped, the financial and personal burden to the owner would be daunting.
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Old June 8, 2015, 11:01 AM   #11
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I do something similar with carring copies, I've just never seen any firsthand accounts of someone having the correct paperwork, but not on their person.
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Old June 8, 2015, 11:02 AM   #12
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Thank you guys for taking the time to reply?
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Old June 8, 2015, 12:23 PM   #13
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Ive never been asked for my paperwork. Even after mtpl LEO interactions. The "boys in blue" are often at the range, on duty and off, training/qualifying
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Old June 8, 2015, 12:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 5.56RifleGuy View Post
Interesting. I'd take it that not all states are set up this way?
Not at all. Some states have no regulation with respect to NFA items beyond stipulating that the item must comply with the NFA.
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Old June 8, 2015, 01:28 PM   #15
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Really, its more likely that a local or state le will ask for paperwork than an atf agent. They dont just go around looking for nfa weapons to see if they are registered or not.
So, while not necessarily illegal to not have the paperwork, it is what proves you not guilty at the moment of le interaction.
This is also going to depend on the officer. Finding an sbr in a car full of gangbangers isnt the same as being two lanes down at the local range from joe citizen with an sbr. Joe citzen, who isnt concerned with who sees it in public, and still isnt concerned if an le officer walks up and identifies himself is either legal, or woefully ignorant.
Also, you can carry a copy, and nothing says it has to be full sized. I shrink copies by 50%, then cover it with plastic, either laminating, or "poor boy" laminating with clear shipping tape, to make it last longer. The smaller sheet is much easier to take along. A friend shrinks his until it fits in his wallet but i can hardly read it. Personally, i like to stick with easily readable.
If you have a trust, you should also carry a copy of the page that lists the trustees. The f4 only proves the trust owns it, not that you are a qualified person to possess it. The trustee page establishes that. In all cases, your id shows that you are the named person.
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Old June 8, 2015, 01:33 PM   #16
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You should try carrying an nfa item as a company employee.
Its a copy of the company ffl, the company sot, a copy of the f2 or f3 showing the company currently owns it, and a letter naming you as an employee and authorized to have it by the company.
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Old June 8, 2015, 04:31 PM   #17
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I don't even carry paper anymore. Just put the PDF on my Cell Phone and call it good.

If the ATF can now issue PDF "Stamps" then I would argue that a PDF "copy" will suffice.

Either way, no one has ever asked me for a copy, including 3 gun matches and carbine classes.
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Old June 8, 2015, 05:20 PM   #18
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I did have a local gunsmith ask if i had a stamp for a 7" AR pistol!!!
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Old June 8, 2015, 05:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
In Texas, for example, merly having a registered and NFA compliant item is a feloney. Tex. Penal Code § 46.05(a). The NFA paperwork is to demonstrate that you qualify for a particular "defence against prosecution" and thus most cops will let you go at that.
That law has been changed but the new law hasn't gone into effect yet. The new law says that possessing an NFA item is not an offense if the proper NFA paperwork is possessed.

I don't know when the new law goes into effect--either September of this year or at the beginning of next year.
Quote:
Im sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying. You are saying that Texas state law says that you are commiting a felony by possessing an NFA regulated item, but you can't be charged if you have a stamp?
Under the old law you could be arrested, charged and taken to court. At that point if you presented your paperwork it would be a defense to prosecution and you could have the charges dropped.

In all fairness, I've never heard of this happening--the LEOs would ask for your paperwork at the scene and then all was well if things were in order. But that was how the law was written.

I have heard of TX LEOs asking machinegun shooters for their paperwork. In fact, one friend of mine finally quit shooting his machineguns because he said that every time he shot them he ended up having to deal with LEOs showing up and asking for his paperwork and then wanting to shoot them (using his ammo) after they found that things were legal.
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Old June 8, 2015, 09:06 PM   #20
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According to the ATF, the stamp has to be "available." They do not define "available." They "suggest" you have a photocopy with the weapon.
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Old June 8, 2015, 09:31 PM   #21
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I'll bet a doughnut on next National Doughnut Day, that 'available' to the ATF does NOT mean 'It's at the house', or 'I forgot to make the copies I was going to make, it's in the deposit box at the bank', or something like that.

You'll get the same response anyone would get for a concealed pistol while the permit is at home in their other pants.
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Old June 8, 2015, 10:12 PM   #22
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I would bet you would get treated decent by the ATF. When I was assigned to the regional drug task force, I did a lot of joint investigations with the ATF. I got to know many of their agents. All the agents I met were good people. They had a lot of common sense. They wanted to arrest criminals. They had absolutely NO desire to aggravate or annoy law abiding citizens. They were ,surprisingly, pretty laid back people. In my dealings with them, their focus was guns used in the drug trade. They did not bother legal gun owners. There is a stigma that the ATF are a bunch of SS agents trying to disarm the citizens of the United States. The truth is that they stay pretty focused on their duty which is arresting criminals.

Last edited by reynolds357; June 8, 2015 at 10:27 PM.
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Old June 10, 2015, 10:18 PM   #23
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That has been my experience as well.
Personally, i would have a copy. I have never been asked for it. Technically, you should have something to show that you legally possess the controlled item.
I carried all the company/employee stuff to take a full auto shotgun to a recon match in another state. A state that doesnt allow machinegun ownership. Nobody asked for a thing.
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Old June 11, 2015, 10:14 AM   #24
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I always leave my original paperwork in the safe and when I shoot my NFA stuff, I just bring a copy of the stamped form 1 or 4 with me. I can't cite any law on this, but this is what I've been told and what I do.
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Old June 11, 2015, 06:55 PM   #25
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I had a local police officer ask to see my stamp a while back. I did not have a copy on me but I was able to call the BATFE (the place you call to get a pending date) and they confirmed to me over the speaker phone that the fire arm was registered to me (the officer had my photo ID), she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents. The police officer was very polite after that.

I do try to carry a copy of the stamp but I admit I forget now and then. I need to just keep the copy's in my range bag.
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