Strange 9mm ammo - what is it?

Big Al · July 28, 2000, 11:17 AM

I picked up some weird 9mm ammo at the flea market this weekend. I have no idea what it is. It was in with a bunch of other miscellaneous junk which had been wrapped up in sandwich bags and priced with masking tape, yard-sale style. There were bags of buttons, bags of paper clips, bags of old toys, bags of junk jewlry, etc. These four rounds were packed in a sandwich bag with a twist tie for $1.00.

I saw them, and figured what the heck, it's only a dollar. Once I got them home though, I realized they weren't ordinary ball rounds.

The brass is stamped HP at the top (12:00), then a star on each side (9:00 and 3:00), and 9mm at the bottom (6:00).

The really strange thing is the bullet. At first glance, it seems to be made of hard, bright blue plastic. Upon closer inspection, the bright blue stuff is just a coating and it's very slippery. There's some kind of solid ball ammo underneath the coating. Instead of being rounded, the bullet is conical - like a birthday hat with a flattened top. It's relatively tall and pointed.

I have no idea who made this ammo or what it's for. Any ideas?

------------------
Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
KelTec P32

"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

LawDog · July 28, 2000, 11:41 AM

It could be the old Federal Nyclad.

LawDog

Ben · July 28, 2000, 11:46 AM

I was thinking possibly the blue Glasers. I personally wouldn't shoot it though.

Ben

------------------
Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

VictorLouis · July 28, 2000, 11:56 AM

The old Geco BAT round: Blitz Action Trauma???

**Mike Irwin** · July 28, 2000, 12:03 PM

I don't have my books here at work with me, but I THINK that HP stands for Hirtenberg Patronen, or Hirtenberg cartridge company, in Germany.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

Jeff OTMG · July 28, 2000, 03:29 PM

The flat tipped Glaser was a copper jacket with a flat blue tip. Not a coating.

The Federal Nyclad is a dark blue almost wax or plastic coating and most were HP.

The BAT was a copper slug with a black nose cone.

Would you believe a KTW? All I have seen have a green tint to the Teflon coating though. Otherwise an accurate description.

Big Al · July 28, 2000, 04:27 PM

The coating on this bullet is bright blue, like a sky blue.

What was it made for, to defeat vests?

------------------
Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
KelTec P32

"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

George Hill · July 28, 2000, 04:36 PM

Sounds very odd - must be some form of Federal Nyclad fodder... Never seen any blue Hirtenberg bullets.

You know what... It could be an old round called the THUNDERZAP.

hksigwalther · July 30, 2000, 05:09 PM

Well, looking at my Identification Guide / Military Small Calibre Ammunition (up to 15mm) / 1989 Edition, Cartridge Headstamp Identification Guide section, it says (actually shows a drawn diagram) what you describe is a Hirtenberger Patronen 9mm. The drawing shown actually had '9mm Police' stamped at 6:00, otherwise it is as you had dedscribed it. Estimated date of manufacture is 'ca 1975'. Doesn't say what it was used for. There was no listing for Austria in the detailed section that tells what the different colors of the bullets signify.

------------------
- Ron V.

Big Al · July 31, 2000, 10:28 AM

Okay, so if it's a Hirtenberger round, what exactly is the blue coating and the strange shape for? does the coating serve a purpose, or is it just cosmetic?

Can anyone tell me about Hirtenberger rounds?

Thanks!

------------------
Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
KelTec P32

"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

**Mike Irwin** · July 31, 2000, 10:34 AM

You've got 4 of them, right?

Time to sacrifice one for science!

I think what you're going to find once you cut the plastic coating away is a hardened steel penetrator.

Do you have an bullet puller, the hammer type? Pull the bullet before you start cutting.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

glockdoc · July 31, 2000, 03:51 PM

quoting hksigwalther:

"The drawing shown actually had '9mm Police'
stamped at 6:00"

This makes me a little uneasy. If I remember what my "Ultimate Makarov Guide" says (it's at home) the "9mm Police" round is not a 9X19 Luger/Parabellum. It seems unlikely, but you may want to check the specs of your ammo before you try any to make sure you are dealing with 9mm Parabellum cartridges.

George Hill · August 1, 2000, 01:16 PM

If its a Hirtenburger with a steele core as suspected - then this round is intended for SMGs and probably dangerous for use in a pistol... Keep them as curios - but dont fire one of them.

hksigwalther · August 1, 2000, 05:59 PM

I've learned my lesson a number of times concerning putting stuff through my guns that I have little or no info on. Was given a box of military issue .45ACP that I found was probably subgun ammo after putting a couple rounds through my P220. Also bought a bag of reloads at a gunshow that were underpowered.

------------------
- Ron V.

Big Al · August 1, 2000, 06:10 PM

I was wondering if this ammo would be overloaded. If I were to fire it, it would be through a Glock. I've heard of some guys firing SMG ammo though Glocks before, but I still don't know if I want to chance it.

------------------
Glock 19
S&W 629 Classic
KelTec P32

"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

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July 28, 2000, 11:17 AM	#1
Big Al Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: West "By God" Virginny, USA Posts: 364	I picked up some weird 9mm ammo at the flea market this weekend. I have no idea what it is. It was in with a bunch of other miscellaneous junk which had been wrapped up in sandwich bags and priced with masking tape, yard-sale style. There were bags of buttons, bags of paper clips, bags of old toys, bags of junk jewlry, etc. These four rounds were packed in a sandwich bag with a twist tie for $1.00. I saw them, and figured what the heck, it's only a dollar. Once I got them home though, I realized they weren't ordinary ball rounds. The brass is stamped HP at the top (12:00), then a star on each side (9:00 and 3:00), and 9mm at the bottom (6:00). The really strange thing is the bullet. At first glance, it seems to be made of hard, bright blue plastic. Upon closer inspection, the bright blue stuff is just a coating and it's very slippery. There's some kind of solid ball ammo underneath the coating. Instead of being rounded, the bullet is conical - like a birthday hat with a flattened top. It's relatively tall and pointed. I have no idea who made this ammo or what it's for. Any ideas? ------------------ Glock 19 S&W 629 Classic KelTec P32 "Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

July 28, 2000, 11:41 AM	#2
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	It could be the old Federal Nyclad. LawDog

July 28, 2000, 11:46 AM	#3
Ben Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,633	I was thinking possibly the blue Glasers. I personally wouldn't shoot it though. Ben ------------------ Almost Online IM: BenK911 ICQ # 53788523 "Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

July 28, 2000, 11:56 AM	#4
VictorLouis Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,302	The old Geco BAT round: Blitz Action Trauma???

July 28, 2000, 12:03 PM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	I don't have my books here at work with me, but I THINK that HP stands for Hirtenberg Patronen, or Hirtenberg cartridge company, in Germany. ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

July 28, 2000, 03:29 PM	#6
Jeff OTMG Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: OKC, OK & Austin, Tx Posts: 3,707	The flat tipped Glaser was a copper jacket with a flat blue tip. Not a coating. The Federal Nyclad is a dark blue almost wax or plastic coating and most were HP. The BAT was a copper slug with a black nose cone. Would you believe a KTW? All I have seen have a green tint to the Teflon coating though. Otherwise an accurate description.

July 28, 2000, 04:27 PM	#7
Big Al Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: West "By God" Virginny, USA Posts: 364	The coating on this bullet is bright blue, like a sky blue. What was it made for, to defeat vests? ------------------ Glock 19 S&W 629 Classic KelTec P32 "Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

July 28, 2000, 04:36 PM	#8
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Sounds very odd - must be some form of Federal Nyclad fodder... Never seen any blue Hirtenberg bullets. You know what... It could be an old round called the THUNDERZAP.

July 30, 2000, 05:09 PM	#9
hksigwalther Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1998 Location: NE OH, USA Posts: 3,198	Well, looking at my Identification Guide / Military Small Calibre Ammunition (up to 15mm) / 1989 Edition, Cartridge Headstamp Identification Guide section, it says (actually shows a drawn diagram) what you describe is a Hirtenberger Patronen 9mm. The drawing shown actually had '9mm Police' stamped at 6:00, otherwise it is as you had dedscribed it. Estimated date of manufacture is 'ca 1975'. Doesn't say what it was used for. There was no listing for Austria in the detailed section that tells what the different colors of the bullets signify. ------------------ - Ron V.

July 31, 2000, 10:28 AM	#10
Big Al Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: West "By God" Virginny, USA Posts: 364	Okay, so if it's a Hirtenberger round, what exactly is the blue coating and the strange shape for? does the coating serve a purpose, or is it just cosmetic? Can anyone tell me about Hirtenberger rounds? Thanks! ------------------ Glock 19 S&W 629 Classic KelTec P32 "Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

July 31, 2000, 10:34 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	You've got 4 of them, right? Time to sacrifice one for science! I think what you're going to find once you cut the plastic coating away is a hardened steel penetrator. Do you have an bullet puller, the hammer type? Pull the bullet before you start cutting. ------------------ Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag. Chances are he knows how to use it.

July 31, 2000, 03:51 PM	#12
glockdoc Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2000 Location: Dahlonega, GA, USA Posts: 172	quoting hksigwalther: "The drawing shown actually had '9mm Police' stamped at 6:00" This makes me a little uneasy. If I remember what my "Ultimate Makarov Guide" says (it's at home) the "9mm Police" round is not a 9X19 Luger/Parabellum. It seems unlikely, but you may want to check the specs of your ammo before you try any to make sure you are dealing with 9mm Parabellum cartridges.

August 1, 2000, 01:16 PM	#13
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	If its a Hirtenburger with a steele core as suspected - then this round is intended for SMGs and probably dangerous for use in a pistol... Keep them as curios - but dont fire one of them.

August 1, 2000, 05:59 PM	#14
hksigwalther Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1998 Location: NE OH, USA Posts: 3,198	I've learned my lesson a number of times concerning putting stuff through my guns that I have little or no info on. Was given a box of military issue .45ACP that I found was probably subgun ammo after putting a couple rounds through my P220. Also bought a bag of reloads at a gunshow that were underpowered. ------------------ - Ron V.

August 1, 2000, 06:10 PM	#15
Big Al Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: West "By God" Virginny, USA Posts: 364	I was wondering if this ammo would be overloaded. If I were to fire it, it would be through a Glock. I've heard of some guys firing SMG ammo though Glocks before, but I still don't know if I want to chance it. ------------------ Glock 19 S&W 629 Classic KelTec P32 "Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam