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Old August 7, 2004, 08:09 PM   #51
mvpel
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No permit needed for open carry

That is, as long as you're not a Brady "prohibited person." As much was said by Earl Sweeney, director of the New Hampshire Police Standards & Training Council, in the August 2003 newsletter.

In addition, the NH State Police actually tells citizens who can't get home-state CCW (Illinois, New Jersey, etc.) that their only option when visiting NH is to carry openly and unload while in the car, since a home-state CCW is required for a non-resident NH CCW.

I spoke to Mas shortly after this happened, and his take on it was that one should whenever possible avoid "spooking the horses," as he put it, and recommended that I chalk it up to experience and be more careful about making sure my pistol was concealed in the future.

Aside from that, I got the 911 and dispatch recording transcribed, posted here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1184323/posts - and the audio file, a 4.2MB MP3, is here: http://www.aidoann.com/manchester.mp3

Last edited by mvpel; August 7, 2004 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Posting problem
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Old August 7, 2004, 08:20 PM   #52
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Maybe I should hang out here more often.
Maybe you should? Less noise..........
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Old August 8, 2004, 09:32 AM   #53
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Geez, that 911 & despatch mp3 said a LOT, the caller was obviously a Anti, and the fact that she hung up when asked for her ID, should have been noticed by the 911 operator to be suspicious in itsellf.

The Despach recording was also somewhat suspicious in the way that the dispacher inittaly relayed the situation, and also in the calling of a code 7 on all units.
(Overboard IMO)

Also the 2nd car radioing in sounded like somone looking for a promotion to the SWAT Team...

Hope you Nail em good mvpel!
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Old August 8, 2004, 10:14 AM   #54
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mvpel,

Thanks for the continuing updates.

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Old August 10, 2004, 07:37 PM   #55
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Awaiting 91-A public records response from Capt. Mara

I sent a letter to Capt. Mara requesting an appointment to review and copy the Manchester Policy and Procedure Guide just over a week ago, and I'm expecting some sort of reply by tomorrow at the latest.

I suppose since I made the mistake of not sending it certified mail, return receipt, he can simply claim they never got it to circumvent the 5 business day deadline in the public records law.

I'll give him a ring tomorrow if nothing comes in the mail, and if nothing comes of that, try again with a return receipt.
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Old August 10, 2004, 08:58 PM   #56
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Make sure you offer to write their entire policy manual for them...
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Old August 20, 2004, 07:04 AM   #57
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I guess you found out that Mas got divorced and moved to Florida, his ex got the Police Bookshelf and he took LFI, at least that is what I heard. Too bad he prefers people take the cowards way out and hide from their rights. Spooking the horses is just what the horses need to be desensitized to us carrying guns. If they saw us everywhere they would soon realize that we are not a threat. No surprise that he would support his buddies in the PD though.
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Old August 20, 2004, 01:03 PM   #58
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Ccw?

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Chalk it up to experience - be more careful to conceal your gun when in public.
Sounds like excellent advice, something Mvpel should have done in the first place, instead of staging a three ring circus for all to see.

Are your 15 minutes up yet?

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Old August 20, 2004, 04:05 PM   #59
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I think it is intellectually dishonest to say that mvpel "staged" this incident. Maybe you can explain how he pulled off having the first contact officer grab his firearm with one hand and shove him against a bookcase with the other? Can you give me a break please, Chuck? Oh... and I'd like to super size it!

He has repeatedly admitted that it was a mistake to not wear his jacket into the bookstore. What more can the man do to convince you that he'd have rather avoided this incident altogether?
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Old August 20, 2004, 08:10 PM   #60
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Poor judgement on mvpel's part or not, the conduct of the police was inexcusable.
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Old August 21, 2004, 04:26 AM   #61
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Mr.BluesMan; My inference as to the Staging, was his airing this incident on the internet.

I have never claimed that it was Mvpels intention to "get the attention of the police" by advertising that he was carrying a weapon CCW.

So you give me a break, and you can supersize that... :barf:

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Old August 21, 2004, 09:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by 12-34hom
My inference as to the Staging, was his airing this incident on the internet.
Well then... I misunderstood what you meant. Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry for my surly words.

So... It is your opinion that he should have just kept quiet about the blatant abuse of authority to which he was subjected. Is this correct?

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Old August 21, 2004, 10:21 AM   #63
12-34hom
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Ccw

Dave, That's the way i would have handled it.

That said; Mvpel was well within his rights to do what he did. It just rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed to me that alliterative motives were in play airing this "unfortunate incident" on the net. But like it or not - that's the path Mvpel chose, hopefully we all learned something from what happened to him and apply that to our actions while carrying CCW in whatever jurisdiction we reside in.

Respectfully - 12-34hom.
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Old August 21, 2004, 03:08 PM   #64
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Just keeping quiet about it was an option . BUT when you factor in the fact that guys in prison have brought lawsuits for having been given chunky peanut butter instead of the requested smooth you gotta think . Help me out here . Which Ammendment covers peanut butter ????
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Old August 21, 2004, 05:17 PM   #65
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hmmm...

...what the hell does alliterative mean?
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Old August 21, 2004, 07:39 PM   #66
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...what the hell does alliterative mean?
A person who uses a lot of words in a sentence that all begin with the same letter...."The guy who composed that post was particularly alliterative".

Guys who gotta get gobs of guns to feel good and safe are goofy.
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Old August 21, 2004, 08:35 PM   #67
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I think maybe he meant "ulterior motives." Just a guess.
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Old August 21, 2004, 08:40 PM   #68
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Well, I just spent a little time reading every post here, and to tell you the truth, I'm a little surprised for a few reasons:

1-With the anti-gun sentiment out there, which you will NEVER change in some people, why give them something to complain about. You know that the anti's have many friends in the media that can cause problems. If you want to carry, like I do EVERYWHERE I can legally, do it concealed. I agree with Mas about not "spooking the horses". If someone that is really not a gun person, but is on-the-fence on the issue of CCW, seeing someone packing in B&N openly won't help win friends.

2-Many mistakes were made here. Openly carrying SOB (or anywhere for that matter) while in a state of being comletely oblivious of your surroundings, can allow anyone motivated enough to just walk up and disarm you (kind of like what the officers did). And, if a criminal did walk in and robbed the place, guess who's going to catch the first bullet because they're the threat. The person who is paying attention to nothing but the book they are looking at while having a gun out in the open! I know the tactical aspect of this has been addressed, but I just had to chime in again.

3-The officers' response. Sounds a little overboard, but I can see two or three units responding to a call like this. I don't see any parrallel to the case mentioned above. I know that an anonomous tip of someone carrying a gun cannot warrant a Terry Stop, but when a tip is received and an officer can plainly see a handgun, there's no need for a Terry Frisk, he can already see it! Maybe a lawyer can justify that arguement, but I think it would be taken out of context. Imagine the civil liability if they received the tip, didn't respond, and some moron started opening up in the store. You can't blame them for responding. Would I have handled it differently, no. You would have been put up against the case with me holding on to your handgun and shoulder. When I found out that you were legal, I would not lecture you on why you need a handgun. IMO, an armed citizen is an important asset to law enforcement as a whole, but I do not agree with open carry at all. I don't agree with a law making it illegal, but I certainly don't promote it. IMO, it's kind of like helmet laws for motorcycles. I don't agree with a law making you wear one, but I think you're an idiot if you don't.

Here in MA, back when I got my first CCW in the early 90's, you could get them when you were 18 years old. I took after my father and have been carrying just about every day since I got my license. And, I have NEVER carried openly. Not because MA law is ever changing and it's legal one minute and not another, but for the reason I stated above. I want to be the one knowing I'm packing, not anyone else.

As for an alterior motive here, I completely believe that he didn't want to start something. But, you can't tell me that it never went through his mind that someone would see his Glock and not like it. I know it's kind of like making a statement about gun rights, but we all have to be responsible. Causing histeria among people that know nothing about guns does not help us when votes are being made about more restrictions. I know many here are rallying behind him standing up and making a pro-second ammendment statement, but for the most part, more harm was done than good IMO.

As a MA resident with a NH CCW license, I carry all the time when I go into the state. Concealed, that is. And, since it's obvious I'm in law enforcement, I know some will jump to conclusions that I'm a little biased. Nope, not at all. I felt the same before I was in law enforcement, and I'll feel the same after I'm out of it.

OK, it's time to open up on me now since I'm the only person who isn't strapping on my handgun and going around parading in public to show support. I agree that the charges were completely out of line. But, as many have stated above, keep it concealed.
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Old August 21, 2004, 09:27 PM   #69
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Hawgleg-
Degrees of Freedom....that's what this is about.

Someday, very soon, your kids may feel intimidated about uttering a perfectly legal phrase due to the possibility of being detained, questioned and, perhaps, harrassed by local Law Enforcement.

Why?
Their words, while perfectly legal, would be not quite politically correct.

I look forward to your critique of your youngest's action, when he/she dares to break that unspoken barrier.

This nation has moved away from the concept of "criminal" in third party actions and embraced the concept of "suspicious". Think you and I define that term on a day to day basis? Grab your "papers" and stand in Line C. Then, Think Again.

ANY bureaucracy will gladly make you just as "safe" as you demand. How "safe" do you want to be?
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Old August 21, 2004, 11:24 PM   #70
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I see your point about "degrees of freedom", but think about it for a second. If you are causing people that don't have a definate opinion on CCW, or any types of firearms for that matter, to form a negative opinion due to you openly carrying a handgun, how long do you think that freedom will last?

Like I said in my original post, I practice my freedom and right to carry a handgun every day. People that don't understand the need for carrying a handgun (they are already living in their own "perfect world" if they think someone else will protect them anyway) will see open carry in most areas as irresponsible. That is definately not the image all of us legal gun owners need in this politically uncertain climate.

If I could have it my way, I would carry a carbine when I went out, and would hope that all other law abiding people would, too. But, this country is no longer like that. If you start sticking our gun rights in people's faces, it WILL come back to bite us. Open carry began to decline in larger cities before the turn of the last century, as people began carrying concealed. It's an idea we are stuck with.

If you think that a large protest of openly armed citizens to "support" this issue is a good thing, think again. When the media got a hold of it, and you know they would, they would be flashing images nationwide with a very biased report that would make all legal gun owners out to be some sort of radical terrorist group. That would help push legislation through that would make the "Crime Bill" look mild.

If we don't act responsibly, we are destroying our own freedoms, not practicing and preserving "degrees of freedom".
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Results of the 1998 Massachusetts gun laws:

It is important to keep in mind the ISP reports show that firearm related homicides decreased 56% from 1994 to 1998.

From 1998 to 2002, firearm related homicides increased 48%. During the same time, firearm related accidental deaths have increased 200%.

Will work for ammo.
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Old August 21, 2004, 11:33 PM   #71
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hello...

...
Quote:
ANY bureaucracy will gladly make you just as "safe" as you demand. How "safe" do you want to be?
...absoLUTELY right!

Ironic that those "kept safe" by the state are just prisoners in "safe houses" or have to disappear, change their names and hide in fear for the rest of their lives...

asses, armed with AR's, alert and anticipating an ambush?

... :barf:
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Old August 22, 2004, 12:06 AM   #72
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Hawglegg44, I see one major flaw in your line of thinking. The people calling the cops on open carry aren't doing it becuse they think someone is acting "irresponsible".

They do it because they are scared, and don't know any better.

How plausible it is to reverse this state of affairs now is a point I will concede to you; in SOME jurisdictions. But I think the argument is, if it WAS commonplace, and people could see no "mayhem" was occurring, they wouldn't be scared about it. At least that's how I see it.

Nobody's calling the cops around here in Arizona
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Old August 22, 2004, 12:49 AM   #73
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I carry concealed everyday. I never carry "open" 'cause it's not legal. If it was legal to "open carry" I would carry concealed about 90% of the time but there are occasions when I would carry "open" for various reasone. I doubt anyone would raise an eyebrow around here if everyone was packing "open". Just today at lunch at a local BBQ joint I saw 3 guys carrying "open". I presume they were LEOs of some flavor but who knew and no one seemed to care or ran to the phone. Around here you see this all the time.

I guess it depends on where you live in this free country. I like where I live.
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Old August 22, 2004, 03:53 AM   #74
12-34hom
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You get what you pay for.

Bluesman, that was what i meant to say, i can't spell worth a damm...

44, great posts - welcome to TFL.

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Old August 22, 2004, 08:46 AM   #75
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If you are causing people that don't have a definate opinion on CCW, or any types of firearms for that matter, to form a negative opinion due to you openly carrying a handgun, how long do you think that freedom will last?
Of course, if those "in charge" were to respond appropriately, "opinions" would quickly change:
"I see, Ma-am. He had a holstered firearm? He was browsing books with his wife? Well, we'll send some one over to check it out, but a holstered firearm is your right in this state. He's probably perfectly legal. Would you like us to call you back once the officers report?"

The problem isn't that guns scare people....you don't see the masses running from armed cops. The problem is that the "unusual" frightens people. If the cops in that jurisdiction would allow open carry to be as common as it is in many places in Arizona, you'd win a whole lot more converts than with all the "never been seen in public" CCW carries in the world.
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