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Old September 1, 2017, 03:44 PM   #51
Walt Sherrill
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Millions of drivers can't tell you how a fuel injection system works, or how it's different from a carburetor. and, they don't need to, in order to drive their car.

It makes no difference to them what the valve body in their automatic transmission does, or how it does it. All they need to know is they put the lever in "D", the car goes forward. Put it in park, and the "safety" is on...(kind of)
If you're saying that we're getting caught up in trivia, I'd probably agree to a point. BUT why this focus on beginners?

Many of the folks involved in this discussion are NOT beginners, and darned few of them seem to agree and a few seem to be unfamiliar with the details being discussed. If the topic isn't addressed HERE, where would a beginner find it explained in a useful manner? And how would some of the non-beginners learn the differences?
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Old September 1, 2017, 04:10 PM   #52
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Why the focus on beginners???

because of the OP

Quote:
Ok, I need your expertise here:

As I've already stated, I have almost no shooting experience.
So I’m trying to understand DA/SA triggers. Not how they work (I already know that), but their pros and cons.
Simply put, the page plus of detailed discussion of various systems internal workings doesn't address the OP's questions, and is what he specially asked us NOT to discuss.

In what is probably another bad analogy, if someone asks the pros & cons of 2 wheel drive, vs. 4 wheel drive, explaining how Ford routes torque through the transfer case one way, and GM does it a different way, does NOT answer the question.

Some of the posters tried, several did not.

Including those who aren't ...beginners...
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Old September 1, 2017, 08:10 PM   #53
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I see.

Had you said, "the OP asked about DA/SA pros and cons, and not how they worked," I would have agreed that we had gone far afield -- then your more recent comments would have made perfect sense to me.

When you said BEGINNERS and didn't specifically cite the OP's question, it seemed you were diverging, just like the rest of us. This discussion certainly addressed more than the PROs and CONs of DA/SA guns.

ME? I not all that enthusiastic about DA/SA guns -- the extra time it takes to become proficient (and some folks never do) seems like a waste of time and ammo.

That said, I own most of the action types we mentioned, except the Walther P99/SW99 which is a true striker-fired DA/SA design. The guns I count on (carry or home defense) are either SA (cocked & locked) or striker-fired with a partially tensioned striker spring -- I like the trigger pulls to be the same with each shot.

I'd argue that a beginner is probably not well-served by starting with a DA/SA gun.

.

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Old September 2, 2017, 12:20 AM   #54
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I'd argue that a beginner is probably not well-served by starting with a DA/SA gun.
I would agree with that, particularly if it is understood that what is meant is that they are not as well served as they would be with a gun with a single, consistent operating system. (either SA or DAO)

The DA/SA learning curve is steep, to master both methods. I do own a few guns in that category, one is a Browning BDA 45 (Sig P220) that I bought new in 1980. Despite the two different trigger pulls, I do love the gun. And, I will admit to almost never shooting it DA.

Interestingly, after I had owned the gun for about a decade, and with NO work of any kind done on it, the DA pull weight seemed to be about half what it was when new. No, I never measured it then, and still haven't, I'm talking about the "feel" which could be entirely me, and probably is.

I have, a couple times in my life "discovered" abilities that I didn't think I had. I had a steel plate in my backyard range, that when in my 20s, I struggled mightily to hit shooting a DA revolver DA. If I managed half the cylinder on target, I was having a great day! Then, about the time I turned 30, all of a sudden, I was "ptinking" 6 for 6 slow fire. Where that came from, I never figured out, it just seemed that one day, I couldn't miss, and from that day on, I shot DA much better. I suppose one could say my practice paid off, but to me it seemed like magic, because, I never really practiced shooting DA very much, just something I did once in a while.

Another gun I have in the DA/SA group is my Mauser HSc. Unlike the Sig, it has a safety. And that safety puts it in what I think is the worst group of pistols for a "beginner".

Like a lot of the DA/SA service pistol designs, the ones with a safety or decocker/safety are the most complicated for new shooters to master. And even for some experienced people, as well.

To make the gun "ready" for carry, you put the safety ON to decock, then have to take the safety OFF so you can fire the gun DA at need. Forget to take the safety OFF before carry, and you got nothing when you pull the trigger.

Cooper, who was very ...conservative.. about what he liked and didn't, didn't like safeties on the slide (for one) and the DA/SA concept in general. Writing in his personal style that irritated so many people, he warned about the risks of a decocking safety saying "don't get caught with your dingus down".

While his manner of writing was considered abrasive and condescending by many, to date, I haven't found him to be totally wrong about a number of things.

I have another pistol that falls into the DA/SA group, and its a real oddball, doing it.

The Wildey.

Its a huge gas operated semi auto, mine is a .45 Win Mag. It has a DA/SA trigger set up, and oddly also a heel type magazine catch. It's way out of the "duty gun" class, and I have no idea why Wildey designed it that way.
I suppose the answer would be "because I could"...

Personally, I've never seriously trained shooting a DA/SA semi in DA mode. I guess I would be one of those people who "shot cock" their gun (if I ever needed to do it).
I think its great that people want to train and master the DA/SA, the way I never did. I'm sure that if it comes to a gunfight, they will be better off than I would be. I've managed to avoid a gunfight for 60 years, and I expect to be able to continue to do so for the 20 or so years I MIGHT have left, so I'm not overly concerned.
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Old September 2, 2017, 08:05 AM   #55
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We don't have to debate this. Look at the shelves at your local gun store. As the military goes 320, I expect the da/sa to be off the shelves completely within 5-10 years.
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Old September 2, 2017, 09:10 AM   #56
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At the local gun shops I frequent, DA/SA pistols do not seem to be getting rarer.
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Old September 2, 2017, 10:05 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by pblanc
At the local gun shops I frequent, DA/SA pistols do not seem to be getting rarer.
The number on the store shelves may be greater, but the gun makers offering new models in that action type seems to be slowly declining. There are always a LOT of SIGs for sale in gun shops, but that's true of Glocks, too. I think DA/SA models will be around for a good while, yet, 'cause people change their "gun" thinking/habits less often than they change their underwear (if they even wear underwear).

CZ (will probably continue making DA/SA guns for a long time, while also offering striker-fired guns, along with DA/SA models that can start from cocked & locked), as will Tanfoglio. I suspect that SIG, and Beretta will continue to offer DA/SA models, too, and those four gun makers seem to be the major gun makers with a heavy focus on DA/SA. (The gun makers in Turkey can go off in almost any direction -- and do a pretty good job of it, too!)

What's being said here about DA/SA not going away is a lot like the early claims that polymer-framed guns would never displace metal-framed guns, and we know the direction that trend is moving...

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Old September 2, 2017, 10:30 AM   #58
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I suspect that companies like Beretta, CZ, HK, FN and others will continue to manufacture DA/SA pistols as long as people continue to buy them.

I do suspect that there will be relatively few new DA/SA models brought to market, although I suspect there will be an occasional "copy" or modification of an existing DA/SA design that appears here and there such as the Arex Rex Zero-1.

What pistol makers bring to market is of course partly driven by what people want to buy. But it is also driven by what the makers want to sell. Striker-action pistols with molded polymer frames are easier to manufacture and can be sold at a higher profit margin.
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Old September 2, 2017, 02:13 PM   #59
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I'd argue that a beginner is probably not well-served by starting with a DA/SA gun.
I'd argue otherwise if the beginner plans on relying on a DA/SA pistol for self-defense as his/her action of choice. He/she should start with the action type they'll end up with-and the "traditional da" (another moniker to add to some peoples' state of confusion, I guess ) pistol is the type I have much preferred using for self-defense purposes for a very long time.
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Old September 2, 2017, 02:17 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by pblanc
What pistol makers bring to market is of course partly driven by what people want to buy. But it is also driven by what the makers want to sell. Striker-action pistols with molded polymer frames are easier to manufacture and can be sold at a higher profit margin.
I agree, but I would note that two of CZ's latest handguns -- the P-07 and P-09 -- are hammer-fired polymer-framed guns, and the P-09 is getting a good name in competition venues. (I would note, too, that these guns offer the shooter DA/SA with the option of safety (and cocked & locked) or decocker.)

I have a P-07, which I like a lot, and it performs very much like my Sphinx SDP, which is a much more costly weapon. Of course the SDP model I have, has a combo-alloy/polymer frame, with most of the grip done in polymer. You can get an all-metal version, but I'd probably never bother going that route -- as the "hybrid" frame works pretty well.

The CZ P10c, which I'd like to try, seems to be gaining fans, too. There are a lot of CZ owners who will, I suspect, take the plunge.

I think polymer frames are here to stay and will eventually almost replace metal frames. It used to be that polymer frames flexed more than some shooters could stand and didn't perform well in Ransom Rest tests. Nowadays, many newer models, made differently and with frames made of subtly different variants of the basic Nylon 66 formula, now perform VERY WELL in those tests, with essentially the same sort of frame flex as metal-framed guns.

Then, too, many of the new modular designs using polymer frames, have an un-flexing metal sub-frame within the polymer (with frame rails as part of the sub-frame), that keeps all of the key components together properly aligned so that there is consistent lockup when the slide returns. The frame is just the handle, while the important parts of the gun (slide, frame, rails, fire control system, etc.) are just as un-flexing as in metal-framed guns.

Guns may be a lot like cars -- have become more and more "plastic" over the years. In many respects, these new, "more-plastic" cars are safer, faster and more economical than anyone would have thought possible, just 20 years ago.

.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; September 3, 2017 at 12:59 PM.
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Old September 2, 2017, 02:36 PM   #61
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The topic did stray a bit.

We started with direct answers, but it strayed quickly...
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Old September 2, 2017, 04:40 PM   #62
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I prefer a long and heavy DA on the first pull for the safety factor (like a revolver), keeping the pistol in ready-to-fire condition without a manual safety. The DA also provides the advantage of double-strike capability over an SA. The only downside is the first shot may be less accurate, and the change over from DA to SA after the first round can slow recovery.

With practice you can reduce the disadvantages of first shot accuracy and recovery to acceptable levels, especially with my CZ 75BD in half-cock position. Besides, if you have just half a second to spare, just cock the hammer and voilà, you have an SA pistol.

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Old September 2, 2017, 07:35 PM   #63
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Slightly strange thread that has seemed to get out of hand a bit. If you can shoot you can shoot. Most seem to get caught up in which flat form is best they are all great if you put in the time just shooting. At a contact distance if you have practiced it doesn't matter much which trigger your pistol has, so many people think "which" trigger you have is important. Just shoot as much as your budget allows and you will be fine.
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Old September 23, 2017, 08:30 AM   #64
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I'm back!
Sorry I took so long to show up. Life got in the way.

Now, first, I gotta say something: because of what I am (hyper-kinetic in the worst way, and curious about pretty much everything), I'm a veteran of probably more than 20 different forums, from mechanics, software, etc, to soapmaking, beer brewing, you name it. Of course, some of them were very nice, helpful forums, and some were... not.
However, even in the best of them, you could come to expect, at best, 15, maybe 20 replies to a thread, before it lost momentum, but 62...! You guys are truly incredible!

Now, I must apologize to you all.
Believe it or not, when I started this thread, I spent a long time reading everything over and over, to make sure I didn't forget to post any important data. And, of course, I did.
First, I forgot a tiny detail: yes, I was talking about hammer fired guns. Sorry...
And second, I forgot to state my intentions: I'm not trying to decide which gun to buy next. You wouldn't believe how many guns are already waiting in line to come join my collection.
The reason I made those questions is because I've been designing a handgun for some time, and one of the things that always bugged me about DA/SA guns is the differences in travel and trigger pull between both firing modes.
Now, a couple of months ago, I got an idea for a new system that should provide a DA mode that's very close in both trigger travel and pull to the SA mode, if not equal (meaning a very light, very short DA, not a long, heavy SA).
Of course, I haven't made a prototype yet (and I'm not an engineer, so I can't calculate the thing), but, since manufacturing one (or several) of them, is a ton of work, I wanted to know what you guys thought in terms of it being a good thing, or not.

So, thank you all for the replies. Even those that went the striker fired way, have posted a ton of great info. Thanks.

In any case, if you have anything to add, please do. Even if I don't reply to a thread, I'm always on top of it on my cellphone. I just can't bring myself to type on that tiny POS...
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Old September 23, 2017, 11:07 AM   #65
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Quote:
Now, a couple of months ago, I got an idea for a new system that should provide a DA mode that's very close in both trigger travel and pull to the SA mode, if not equal (meaning a very light, very short DA, not a long, heavy SA).
For many of us, what you propose would defeat the purpose for having a classic DA pistol; long trigger pull (DA) for the first shot, all subsequent shots being short (SA) trigger pulls. That's the configuration we want so as to be able to carry the pistol safely, even if it lacks a safety (like many SIG pistols, for instance).

It would seem that if you had a pistol that fired DA with a "very light, very short" trigger pull, you'd need a safety to carry it safely. And if that's the case, there are plenty of SA pistols out there that have safeties to prevent a light trigger pull to be inadvertently depressed (the 1911 comes to mind).

What you have in mind seems to me to already exist in the form of many striker-fired pistols (ala Glock), even though you want the same basic operation with a pistol having a hammer. Sorry, I'm just not getting it. I can be dense at times.
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Old September 23, 2017, 12:26 PM   #66
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I have to agree with dgludwig. I wouldn't get the point of what you're suggesting. At that point use one of any number of systems out there.


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Old September 23, 2017, 12:43 PM   #67
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Well, that's the reason for this thread.
All of you have a lot more experience than me with guns. For me, this is just an exercise in mechanics. What I want to know is if it would make sense or not, from a user's perspective, or to which point it would make sense (let's say, just as an example, that a DA that is 30%, or 40% heavier and/or longer than the SA would be a better compromise between safety and ease of use?).
My point is I think I can manage the DA's travel and pull at will. So,I keep reading this or that DA/SA gun's reviews, and most cite the "long and heavy DA" as a bad thing. What would be a "good" DA to SA pull/travel ratio?
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Old September 23, 2017, 01:21 PM   #68
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Quote:
So,I keep reading this or that DA/SA gun's reviews, and most cite the "long and heavy DA" as a bad thing. What would be a "good" DA to SA pull/travel ratio?
The transition required between the long, first shot DA trigger pull to the short SA trigger pulls for all subsequent shots (the "classic" DA configuration) has always been a bone of contention for those who don't like the system. They argue that it takes too much practice and training to become proficient with the necessary trigger pull changes.

For others, self included, the long first shot trigger pull (so long as it is relatively smooth and not too heavy) is beneficial in a pistol being carried for self-defense purposes. As noted earlier, the long pull needed for the first shot makes a semi-auto pistol similar to a DA revolver in terms of carrying it safely.

Furthermore, in my experience, it simply is not that hard to learn to shoot proficiently with a classic DA pistol. I think the supposed difficulty has been way overrated.

Finally, it seems to me that every conceivable type of action that is practical to use in a semi-auto pistol (SA, DA, DAO and combinations of same; be they striker or hammer-fired) is already available on the market. I simply don't see a niche in the market for the type of action you seem to be advocating. I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say.
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Old September 23, 2017, 01:22 PM   #69
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I also agree with dgludwig. I consider the heavy DA trigger pull a feature. And it's a feature that doesn't have to be utilized if one chooses not to, but it's a feature that I appreciate. A DA/SA action offers choices.
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Old September 23, 2017, 01:28 PM   #70
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Dgludwig: I'm not advocating. Just learning...
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Old September 23, 2017, 04:07 PM   #71
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I like to think I'm always learning too, BOOGIE. I'm not trying to be critical of your idea; it's an interesting concept and I'm glad you asked about it. I'm just trying to fill in some gaps.
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Old September 23, 2017, 04:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
We don't have to debate this. Look at the shelves at your local gun store. As the military goes 320, I expect the da/sa to be off the shelves completely within 5-10 years.
They also tend to cost less, making the purchase, especially for the first time buyer more attractive, a quality gun and be bought without a lot of $. They are popular, especially with the younger generation. Personally, I don't like them and prefer the da/sa or the sa although I do not think I have ever shot a pistol in da but that comes from being old and learning sa first. If da/sa disappear from the shelves I imagine they will still be kept under the counter for us older folks.


Then again better buy a couple more just in case.
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:38 PM   #73
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Regardless of trigger you choose the biggest safety factor is you and training you put in. Not just training but quality training. However the trigger weight and pull is an important part of safety for a service weapon. I stress training but most of us do not train under stress with the adrenaline flowing which will make a light trigger dangerous.

I like the DA/SA platform for service weapons but mainly because that has what i have been shooting for 30 years and no desire to learn a new platform. My sigs have a DA with a 10 lb pull. Yes that is a long heavy pull but you dont accidentally discharge that weapon. The SA has about a 4 lb pull with a short reset and allows fast and presision followup shots.

For a service weapon i would prefer a 5-6 lb trigger pull. I dont like long trigger pulls. If you get a trigger that is smooth with a crisp break you will find it easy to shoot accurately. For me a long rough trigger has more impact on accuracy than the trigger weight.

I like the idea of double strike but not important to me. I train to "tap and rack" on failures. I did read an article that claimed that 80% of misfires would fire if struck again. Nice idea but im old and set in my ways with no plans of changing 30 years of training.
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Old September 23, 2017, 11:10 PM   #74
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Quote:
I expect the da/sa to be off the shelves completely within 5-10 years.
So I guess Springfield is going in the opposite direction with their all new for 2017 DA/SA XDE hammer fired subcompact??

Dang, that is the first ever Springfield XD that I have ever liked! I would even get on of those, but unfortunately, they never will be for sale in CA!
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Old September 24, 2017, 05:47 AM   #75
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As has been said, a DA/SA pistol in which the length and weight of the DA and SA trigger pulls is the same is not only impossible, it would make no sense.

If you want a hammer-fired pistol with a consistent trigger pull length and weight, design or buy a double action only pistol.

The DA trigger pull of most DA/SA pistols can be made lighter (but not shorter) by reducing the power of the mainspring. Most DA/SA pistols are somewhat over-sprung with regard to their hammer springs. This is done to ensure against light primer strikes.

Reducing the hammer spring weight will have little effect on the SA trigger pull weight so the weight of the DA and SA trigger pulls gets closer together. But the DA trigger pull is still going to start much farther forward and be much longer. Many DA/SA pistols also release the hammer at slightly different places in the trigger pull.

If you want a double action pistol that has a trigger pull weight lighter than what can be achieved with a reduced power mainspring without getting light primer strikes, then look at an "assisted" DAO trigger action like some of Heckler and Kochs LEM triggers.

There are lots of fans of DA/SA pistols. As long as people buy them, manufacturers like Beretta, CZ, Heckler and Koch, SIG Sauer, and FNH will continue to make them. They aren't going to disappear.
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