Russian Spy Who Attempted to Infiltrate NRA

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Maria Butina, the Russian accused of attempting to infiltrate and gain access to U.S. politics, has been profiled by “The New Republic” (a kind of left-wing progressive version of “The National Review”). They’ve titled the piece “The Spy Who Wasn’t”

The author appears to feel strongly that Butina is being railroaded to support a narrative and notes the special counsel’s office declined to indict even though this is right up their alley.

Because Butina was an RKBA advocate for Russia and has been linked to the NRA, I thought the article might be of interest to some here.

[TailGator]

"But unlike the NRA, which has become closely aligned with the conservative movement in the United States, Butina’s group sought support from across the political spectrum. “I’m an advocate for gun rights,” Butina said. “For me it didn’t matter, I talk to left or right, in government or oppositional."

That part caught my eye. I think the NRA would do well to think more like her.

The article makes a convincing case that she was railroaded. But it could be slanted, too. I honestly do not know how to discern the truth any more.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

NRA would do well? The NRA has had Democrats on ots Board of Directors up until the Obama era. The NRA didn’t kick them off, they quit. Likewise with all the yellow dog Democrats purged during the Obama era. Heidi Heitkampf was about the last Dem in the Senate to support gun rights.

In the past, the NRA has endorsed: Howard Dean, Kristen Gillibrand, Bill Clinton, John Dingell, Max Baucus, Joe Manchin, and dozens of other prominent Dems. While they didn’t endorse Harry Reid, they gave him a nice puff piece in the American Rifleman. With the exception of Sen. Baucus, every one of those candidates repaid their endorsement the same way - by endorsing NRA-opposed gun control. I’m sure the NRA would love to be more bipartisan. I’d love for the NRA to be more bipartisan. The NRA isn’t the problem side in that equation.

[wizrd]

New York Senator Charles Schumer was an NRA member, once. Back in the 1990's, a friend and I sent him a gift membership, when we were instructing mandatory NRA pistol courses in NY's Oneida County. Come to think of it - he never did Thank Us!

[davidsog]

"But unlike the NRA, which has become closely aligned with the conservative movement in the United States, Butina’s group sought support from across the political spectrum. “I’m an advocate for gun rights,” Butina said. “For me it didn’t matter, I talk to left or right, in government or oppositional."

That part caught my eye. I think the NRA would do well to think more like her.

The article makes a convincing case that she was railroaded. But it could be slanted, too. I honestly do not know how to discern the truth any more.

Absolutely and good post.

The NRA has had Democrats on ots Board of Directors up until the Obama era. The NRA didn’t kick them off, they quit.

And the NRA fell right into their hands by playing the politics of division.

This has nothing to do with the actions of anyone OTHER than the NRA, ether. We cannot control resistance.org ANTIFA bad actors but we can present a message that appeals to a much larger audience than we do now.

Of particular importance is reaching out to a generation that is primarily urban and did not receive the gun culture/hunting background of previous generations.

[cjwils]

At this point we don't know, and may never know, if Butina is a real advocate of the RKBA or a secret Russian agent sent to create divisiveness. Is there really a Russian RKBA effort, or is that a smokescreen?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The NRA is playing the politics of division because the politicians they endorsed turned around and betrayed them and quit the organization?

How about we take this to the already existing NRA message thread? Or you can take it there since I have no interest in the conversation.

[TXAZ]

I see at least 3 different possible false-flag operations there. And there may be more.
Who really knows?

[davidsog]

The NRA is playing the politics of division because the politicians they endorsed turned around and betrayed them and quit the organization?

Inadvertently yes...

While they did not choose it, it was given to them. The NRA has not adopted any other real strategy outside of that.

Do you know what the OODA loop is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

The NRA has obviously lost the initiative and in looking at its website appears reactive and not proactive.

Or you can take it there since I have no interest in the conversation.

Yeah, I agree. It is obvious that Asymmetrical and Unconventional Warfare concepts adopted for the NRA fight are just too tough for folks to grasp, LOL.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by davidsog

The NRA has obviously lost the initiative and in looking at its website appears reactive and not proactive.

Some (perhaps much) of the reactive rather than proactive stance can be attributed to picking your battles. For example, the NRA didn't want the Heller case to come before the Supreme Court. Why not? Certainly not because the NRA doesn't want residents of Washington, DC, to keep functional firearms in their homes. But the NRA was concerned, and legitimately so, about the possibility of losing -- and thereby setting a precedent further eroding the 2A.

In the end, we "won," but looking at cases that have gone through the appeals level since Heller one has to ask if it was a Pyrrhic victory. In order to keep Kennedy on the pro-2A side, Scalia had to include that execrable "presumptively lawful" language that the lower courts have been assiduously misinterpreting and misapplying ever since.

On a much smaller (and unpublicized) scale, the NRA helped me in a battle to overturn a truly stupid and unenforceable anti-gun local ordinance in my town a few years ago. The NRA provided some grant money to help me pay for an attorney, and they consulted on strategy. As with Heller, the NRA did NOT want me to take the case to trial. Why not? Because I live in a very liberal, anti-gun state. Basically all the judges, both state and federal, are liberal bed-wetters. The NRA was afraid we would lose, and that if we then appealed it would set a precedent that would cause more problems down the road.

So we took the approach of letting the town know that the lawsuit had been drafted and that we were prepared to file it, and that brought them to the table. We didn't get the ordinance repealed, but we did get several revisions that -- overall -- are improvements compared to what it said before. So you should recognize that the NRA is active behind the scenes, in many smaller actions that aren't generally known.

If Trump can get at least one more solid, pro-2A, originalist justice on the Supreme Court before the end of next year, then we may see the NRA becoming a bit more proactive. At the moment, taking a 2A case to the SCOTUS is very risky -- Roberts is NOT our friend.

[RickB]

Leftists believe the NRA is in bed with "Russia", as an offshoot of "Russian collusion".
All conservatives are stooges for Russia.
Of course, Saint Obama told us Russia is no threat . . .

[J.G. Terry]

Exodus: Without giving numbers there was a reported exodus from the NRA after the Florida school shooting. The reason being the bad showing
by the spokesperson and executives of the NRA. Some people want to see honest to god hunters and match shooters back in the saddle. Strong people who are not owned by anybody. No insurance, gold coins or commemorative firearms. Powerful advocates for firearm owner ship. No money grubbers!

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by RickB

Leftists believe the NRA is in bed with "Russia", as an offshoot of "Russian collusion".
All conservatives are stooges for Russia.
Of course, Saint Obama told us Russia is no threat . . .

In 2001, President George Bush issued a truly astounding appraisal of Vladimir Putin, the former KGB agent who has run Russia since replacing Boris Yeltsin in 1999. "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."

I think Bush's own CIA and FBI specialists would have told him to read his intelligence briefs more closely before opening his mouth.

dejavue all over again...

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Omce again, we’ve got a current, open thread on NRA messaging. Everyone who would like to have that conversation, please take it to that thread.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by BR

Maria Butina, the Russian accused of attempting to infiltrate and gain access to U.S. politics, has been profiled by “The New Republic” (a kind of left-wing progressive version of “The National Review”). They’ve titled the piece “The Spy Who Wasn’t”

The author appears to feel strongly that Butina is being railroaded to support a narrative and notes the special counsel’s office declined to indict even though this is right up their alley.

New Republic was an interesting journal in the 80s with a lot of smart, non-hysterical writing.

Russian politics are difficult and complex, often defying simple analysis. For Butina and Torshin to rise out of that environment without any unfortunate associations whatsoever would be an extraordinary thing. That would be an issue very much apart from whether she was involved in state espionage. One would think that, like Wen Ho Lee, a "spy" would be involved with information worth stealing rather than engaging in rights advocacy.

Political ideas routinely cross borders; BHO's campaign people were involved in Israeli elections, and at times over the last four decades (in addition to the bloody alliances of WWII) there has been more than mere alignment of views with Canadian and UK parties. There were quite a few political alliances between the two populations in the Yeltsin era when a lot of us hoped and foresaw Russia going in a different direction.

[davidsog]

about the possibility of losing

Life is about risk management. I will take the fact most of us can read and understand quite well.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

We understand that this is plain language. We can read the 44 or so pages of the Constitution as written in 1787 and understand what it means.

What has grown and is robbing us of our rights is the 3000 and some pages our constitution has been bloated too by those who feel the need to "interpret" our rights away. Some of that is necessary.

THE CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ANALYSIS AND INTERPRETATION

https://www.congress.gov/content/con...CONAN-2017.pdf

Some of it amounts to being pissed on as we are being told it might rain today. In good governance...that dichotomy is less prevalent and it is harder to spot the difference between what one reads and what one sees.

We could lose but I am willing to bet we will not.

If Trump can get at least one more solid, pro-2A, originalist justice on the Supreme Court before the end of next year, then we may see the NRA becoming a bit more proactive. At the moment, taking a 2A case to the SCOTUS is very risky -- Roberts is NOT our friend.

Nothing wrong with a good strategy, either!

Which is why the NRA needs to adapt to the reality of the battlefield and start appealing to this next generation.

[davidsog]

Leftists believe the NRA is in bed with "Russia", as an offshoot of "Russian collusion".
All conservatives are stooges for Russia.
Of course, Saint Obama told us Russia is no threat . . .
__________________

There is much stupidity and hysteria when it comes to Russia within our Government and our society.

Much of that stems from our own culture sabotages our perception of Russian Culture. While at our foundation the Russian and American people are very similar. We would understand them well if we can just filter out a few things in the culture on both sides that short circuits the communication.

We are arrogant and tend to think everybody is a little American deep inside that is just waiting to get out.

We used to joke:

If you speak three languages; you are trilingual
If you speak two languages; you are bilingual

If you speak one language; you are an American.

The fact is America has a crappy reputation with the rest of the world. Our reputation is while our gadgets and stuff is great, we as a people lack fortitude. We will run out on our friends at the first sign of trouble.

"Are you going to see this through and stick by us to the end" is the number one question because everybody else in the world knows, America will run out when things get tough.

Our basic outlook is very different from your average Russian. We admire the guy who smiles in the face of adversity. The Russian's think smiling without a good reason just means you are too stupid to understand the misery of the human condition.

In negotiations, we establish the ideal and work back to a compromise. The Russians start at the realistic compromise as the ideal is complete fantasy. Any backing off of that is viewed as weakness. American's sit down at the negotiating table and automatically appear unreasonable, weak, as we smile all the time like complete idiots.

Even something as simple as "How Are You?". To us, that is greeting. We do not want to hear about the pimple on your behind or how your pillow was lumpy last night. A simple, "I am fine" is all we want to hear back.

To a Russian...that is a question to be answered. If you do not want to hear about their painful elbow and Aunt Evita's visit then why did you ask??

Russian culture is community centric while American culture celebrates individuality.

While Russia is a threat, it is mostly because of Putin himself and his personality. It is artificially inflated.

I think the intelligence operation conducted by Putin's agencies to disrupt our political process, divide our population, and sew the seeds of discontent will go down in history as one of the most successful disinformation operations in Intelligence History. Certainly right up there with Reagan's Star Wars program.

[J.G. Terry]

Wonder what will happen when the investigation(s) start to follow the money with the NRA. To separate that Russian woman of dubious character from the other underhanded Russian behavior in our elections is more than a little naive.

[Erno86]

In reaction...Russian President Vladimir Putin said --- "The law of retaliation states 'An eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.'" --- by jailing former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan for being "caught in the act of espionage," has fueled speculation that he would attempt to trade Whelan for Russian citizen Maria Butina.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...act-espionage/

[rickyrick]

I could care less about the Russia crud. Politicians try to get dirt on other politicians. Been going on with every election everywhere in the country. There’s organizations in which digging up dirt on opposing sides is their business model. If dog catchers were elected, this would go on. Why in the heck all of the sudden is this one particular politician required to be squeaky clean?

Just move on with other things and quit wasting the country’s time and money.
The Russians fly our astronauts into space for gosh sake.

[davidsog]

Why in the heck all of the sudden is this one particular politician required to be squeaky clean?

Because this particular politician represents the largest threat to career ruling class seen to date.

His election of an "amatuer" who was not a lawyer nor spent decades in various offices is completely outside the norms that have been established since the progressives won in 1913. Since that time, the average tenure in congress has gone from the 3.5 years it held steady at for the first 190 years of our existence to the current 10.5 years with 224 our of 435 members holding 37 or more years in office.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41545.pdf

The careerist simply cannot allow this model to continue. If the people think those successful in the private sector will make good electable leaders in Government then it will destroy their self licking ice cream political machine where only the careerist ruling class know what is best for us.

[Skans]

NRA would do well? The NRA has had Democrats on ots Board of Directors up until the Obama era. The NRA didn’t kick them off, they quit. Likewise with all the yellow dog Democrats purged during the Obama era. Heidi Heitkampf was about the last Dem in the Senate to support gun rights.

In the past, the NRA has endorsed: Howard Dean, Kristen Gillibrand, Bill Clinton, John Dingell, Max Baucus, Joe Manchin, and dozens of other prominent Dems. While they didn’t endorse Harry Reid, they gave him a nice puff piece in the American Rifleman. With the exception of Sen. Baucus, every one of those candidates repaid their endorsement the same way - by endorsing NRA-opposed gun control. I’m sure the NRA would love to be more bipartisan. I’d love for the NRA to be more bipartisan. The NRA isn’t the problem side in that equation.

^^^^^^ +1 The NRA never wanted to have to choose one political party over the other. That was forced upon them, unfortunately. The Democrat leaders have gone to great lengths to demonize the NRA, trying to spin it as one step less dangerous than some terrorist group.

[44 AMP]

When one side of a political issue virtually spits in your eye, clearly and publicly states "we against you, and everything you stand for" and the other side says "hmm you're voters, lets talk..." who the hell do you think you are going to "align" with??

I think the whole "Russia this, Russia that" is idiocy. Smoke and mirrors is perhaps too generous.

Now that the Russians aren't the communist Soviet Union, NOW they're the bad guys??? To the political left, they are. The weren't before, so they told us since the days of FDR...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's another take on her. Anyway, just talking about the general pros and cons of the NRA are a diversion from the story.

Let's get back on the OP emphasis.

[KyJim]

Some of you may be interested in a somewhat different take on Butina from a 28-year CIA veteran with a piece in The Atlantic:

Lost in the noise so far, however, is the fact that Butina may be one of many. For years, countries including Russia and China have regarded their citizens who study in the United States as an intelligence-gathering resource.

One thing the public should know about Butina is that she was not a “spy” in the traditional sense, but rather what the intelligence community would call an access agent.... Her job, if the allegations are true, was to use her wits to gain access to organizations and individuals of particular interest to Moscow and to provide information to the real spies who might leverage that knowledge to promote Russia’s agenda.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...e-many/582532/

Not to be forgotten is the Butina pled guilty to criminal charges as a foreign agent.