Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

[Lohman446]

It’s not a complaint about recoil. If the purpose of going to a 380 is because of recoil sensitivity the direct blow backs like the P232 are not a good choice. There are guns in 380 that will have much less perceived recoil. This is not intended as an assault against the P230 or P232. Its an observation.

[edcwhitewolf92]

well if you can put someone down with a .22 you definitely can with a .380 I think it definitely works. I sure wouldn't want to get shot with one...

[JERRYS.]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

While there is truth in your statement I think it drastically downplays the role of an individual in avoidance of conflict. Think about how your decisions can increase or decrease the likelihood of a violent confrontation in which you are not the initiator of violence. For instance one could be amazed that the Amish, who are mostly sworn to pacifism, are not every day the victims of violence based on your statement. Easy victims, often dealing in successful cash businesses, and (for the purposes of use against other humans) unarmed. If violence was solely at the discretion of the attacker then these individuals should be a major target.

um, yeah. that's basically what I said and why I had two sentences....

regarding the bolded portion, their lack of victimization is usually because of their isolation, not because a criminal doesn't want to attack them.

[jar]

The caliber I choose for protection is 380.

I have other choices available, 32S&W 38S&W, 38Special, 357, 9mm, 9mmMak, 44Special, 44Mag, 45Colt, 45acp.

I have the handguns, the ammunition, the experience, the holsters for any of those.

Yet what I carry is one (or more) of the small 380 pistols.

When I do carry one of the other choices I will also be carrying one of the small 380 pistols.

I've been shooting handguns since Ike was President and my first 380 was probably while JFK was still in office.

But today's pocket 380s are smaller and lighter and slimmer and easier to maintain than the Beretta, MAB, Browning or Walther of the 50s & 60, as or more accurate, with more efficient ammo than we could buy back then.

Does that make a 380 "really" an adequate self defense gun?

For me the answer is "Yes". I can shoot them well, maintain them easily, conceal them is most any clothes and all over my body. I find them easy to present rapidly, shoot rapidly and accurately, relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain and as reliable as any handguns I have now or have owned in the past.

[rodfac]

after a couple of incidents my daughter asked about getting a pistol.

I'd suggest that you encourage her to find new employment. Short of that, she needs expert training with a gun/pepper spray that SHE can handle.

Avoidance of conflict is FAR better than toughing it out in a neighborhood that's explosive. No job/employer that routinely allows a young woman to close out the business day and leave with "the day's receipts" is worth working for. Get her out of the situation, then consider her concealed carry options.

Rod

[MoArk Willy]

This will teach the OP to ask a question here.
In my opinion....
There are no bad calibers for self defense.
But it isn't about the caliber or the gun, it's about the persons commitment in learning how to use it properly.
If you practice regularly with a .22, carry it everyday and be comfortable using it, it is a million times more deadly and useful than a .357 magnum kept in a night stand for years while waiting for the bump in the night.
Situational awareness, avoidance, practice and a willingness to use a firearm are what is important....not weight, caliber or manufacturer.
Predators will always be there. It's up to us to thwart them in any way we can.
If we can't change our routine, our habits, our jobs or even our residence then we have to prepare ourselves. It's not only our right it's our duty to make self preservation the most important thing in our lives.

[Lexspeed]

I enjoy reading these threads that quickly gravitate into "caliber debates". I find I frequently learn something new and I am always amused by the ensuing pie throwing.

[Cosmodragoon]

In terms of the most common self defense situations for the average citizen, there is almost no practical difference between the most common calibers.

The person who shared this also talked about hunting. As we've heard in the rifle comments, that's often a much higher power level. The normal sorts of handguns we see for daily carry just don't cause the same kinds of damage. They are further down the scale where small differences in power can be important. In the case of .380 or .38 special, adequate penetration and expansion are questionable enough to generate threads like this one.

The fact is that we don't have great statistics for self-defense encounters. What we do know is that they are unpredictable and can happen fast. It is entirely possible that you'll be entangled with an attacker, or injured, or in a poor position, or whatever else. You might not get a clean draw. Your only hope might be shooting someone in the gut, the arm, the thigh, etc. Such a shot might cause the attacker to stop due to pain, fear, or realization of being shot. If not, you'd better hope it does enough mechanical damage to give you an edge.

On the off chance that your life ends up depending on whether that shot broke a bone, disabled a muscle, etc... You have to decide if you're comfortable betting on .380 from whatever barrel length is in question. Yeah, the chance of this happening is small but so is the chance that you'll need your gun at all. If .380 is all you can comfortably carry, then carry it. If you can reasonably carry 9mm, then why wouldn't you?

[JohnKSa]

Do the people that complain about harsh recoil from a blowback design also avoid shooting revolvers? Because they are fixed barrels as well!

I know at least one person who does exactly that. Absolutely no centerfire revolvers and blowback .380ACP pistols have to be large, relatively heavy and with a very comfortable grip. Think Beretta 84/86 pistols.

[Lohman446]

The card stacking defense of the 9MM continues

.380 - this round is puny and only marginal at best. The difference in recoil between this and a 9MM is insignificant and the power advantage is significant

9MM - The gods could not have designed a better cartridge

.40 - way too powerful. The difference in “mechanical advantage” between this and 9MM is insignificant and the difference in recoil is significant

The arbitrary lines required are amusing at first then the realization of the argument is logically alarming. If the shooter in question is not comfortable with 9MM but is with .380 go with 380. The chances of the difference in “mechanical advantage” ever mattering are virtually zero

[JohnKSa]

The arbitrary lines required are amusing at first...

There is one line that is not really arbitrary.

People who want consistent penetration to a minimum of 12" with reasonable expansion will find that kind of performance is difficult to obtain with the .380ACP. Rounds that penetrate to 12" reliably don't expand very much, if at all, and the ones that do expand well, have a hard time reaching 12" of penetration.

Here's some expansion/penetration data--of all the loads tested, there's really only one that offered decent expansion and that reliably penetrated to 12".

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...-tests/#380ACP

One could argue that the 12" figure is arbitrary, but since it has a basis in average anatomy, that would be a difficult argument to support.

I'm already on record as saying that .380ACP is adequate, and I do carry it from time to time, but I am cognizant of its limitations when used with most expanding ammunition.

Once you get significantly above the .380ACP power level, there's enough energy for bullet designers to get both good expansion and good penetration.

[Lohman446]

I look at the chart provided and the numbers provided (12 inch penetration with good expansion) and see at least two that meet those requirements. If I’m willing to give up expansion I get a few more choices. The 12” cut off does not make he 380 inadequate though as you note your argument is not that it is. The limitations of the 380 are likely largely shared by the majority of common defensive calibers.

[Bill DeShivs]

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.
It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.
It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

Yes, Bill, not only killed buy disabled to the point of stopping the attack. From all the training I have done with the small 380's over the years and the confidence I have from that training has me convinced that they are serious weapons. Some of these rounds getting extremely great penetration, and nasty would channels.
Some folks get so wrapped up in FBI penetration test they fail to realize that is just a standard for Police etc. Many 380 rds. are meeting those test and if not, does not mean they are not good for self defense. And some companies like Underwood are getting really serious about this round. The "Defender and Cavitaor are even getting fantastic results out of a 32.cal.

The Op's daughter choose the 380. I would bet she knows her lifestye better than many of us here. And her lifestyle might just be one in which she knows the weapon she would carry every day. And to carry each day,Proper training combined with situational awareness, will trump any gun left at home. There has to be comfort in the fact that she would always be armed.
And to anyone that thinks a 380 is simply better than nothing, then God forbid that 3-7 rounds of sizzling 380 never comes into their chest, face, neck etc. They would learn very fast, that the 380 is more than just something better than nothing.
And dead men tell no lies.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by Cosmodragoon

The person who shared this also talked about hunting. As we've heard in the rifle comments, that's often a much higher power level. The normal sorts of handguns we see for daily carry just don't cause the same kinds of damage. They are further down the scale where small differences in power can be important. In the case of .380 or .38 special, adequate penetration and expansion are questionable enough to generate threads like this one.

Handgun hunting
Along with four decades in law enforcement

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers.
Expansion with the most common handgun calibers is relatively inconsequential as compared to penetration. But people have been lead by the nose to believe it is a major factor, so they hang their emotions on it and argue endlessly about its merits. Again, if people got out and started putting metal in meat themselves, they would quickly see some reality that would change their notion of importance.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by gc70

The difference in the actual amount of recoil force between a Sig P232 and a S&W 380EZ is inconsequential (less than 5%). The large difference in felt or perceived recoil between the guns is because the Sig is a blow-back design that delivers it recoil force in one sharp motion while the S&W is a locked-breech design that spreads its recoil force out over time.

I own the firearms being discussed, I know how they operate.
There is a HUGE difference between them while firing, and the Sig is no where near a 22lr

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Hunting? Lol, Never used a 380 or even a 9mm. Mosly Rifles like 308 etc and shotguns. Have shot a lot of small game with 22.cal and know a number of guys killing Coyote with 22.Mag.Taking a deer down at 50 to 100 yds, or one at 40 yards with a shotgun, is not to be compared to handguns where the distance is so much closer.

We need to get off this caliber war. It is going no where. A lot of internet Ballistic experts should not be relied upon. It is getting more than ridiculous.

[the possum]

Many have wisely pointed out that your daughter needs to practice with whatever gun she gets. So I'm surprised that no one has come out and said this:

Buy her a case of practice ammo to go along with the gun!!!

.380 ammo is expensive to buy in stores. If she has to make a decision on 20 separate occasions whether to drop the cash on a box of ammo, then at least some of those times will probably result in a "no". Go ahead and spend another $225 to have 1000 rounds delivered, so she won't have any mental excuse to not practice.
https://ammoseek.com/ammo/380-auto?co=new&ca=brass


That said, I like some of the ideas already mentioned about keeping her out of this situation in the first place. Make sure she can park in a well lit area when she's closing, even if most employees normally can't. Why can't they keep the cash in a safe until the next day, so they can do the bank run in the morning? If the boss protests that it could be stolen overnight, then he's telling you he'd rather your daughter take a chance on getting killed than losing one day's worth of receipts.

I do drop a tiny .380 in my pocket fairly often simply because it's easy, light, and far more comfortable to carry than a bigger gun in my (already tight) waistband. But that's only because I expect zero chance of actually needing it, and figure it's better to have something just in case. If I were routinely put in sketchy situations, after "a few incidents" have already happened, then comfort be damned! I'd be carrying the biggest gun I could get away with.

[imabmwnut]

You won’t find anyone who wants a second round.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by TBM900

I would highly HIGHLY HIGHLY encourage you to get out and do some hunting.

If you do so you'll quickly learn that such 'data points' as you assert are next to meaningless in actual flesh, blood, and bone. In terms of the most common self defense situations for the average citizen, there is almost no practical difference between the most common calibers.

Your Assumption is incorrect, badly.
I've bowkilled over two dozen deer, killed a couple with muzzleloader, couple with rifle and one with 10mm pistol.
A 155 XTP 10mm expands to about .65 yet somehow made holes bigger than .95



Unlike "doctors who can't tell a difference" I used a unit for measurement (quarter = .95) for documentation.

[IdaD]

I tend to think that about any gun is adequate for self defense because in most scenarios a bad guy is going to stop what he's doing and retreat if you start shooting at him with anything. Even a 22 is loud and would certainly sting enough to get most people's attention. So following this logic, a 380 is going to be adequate most of the time. It is less powerful than the typical defensive calibers so yes there are certain circumstances where it may fail where the others would have been successful. But if you follow that logic using any handgun for self defense is inadequate because a rifle or shotgun will work better almost all the time.

All that being said, my primary carry guns are 9mm. I wouldn't be opposed to a pocket sized gun in 380, though, and at some point I'll probably buy one.

[briandg]

One of the things that has come to my mind numerous times over the past years is something that I never, ever hear mentioned. Killing, disabling, etc seem to come in first, then we have evasion or avoidance, then we have run like aitch ee double hockey sticks, or hunker down and hope that the bad guy goes past and kills a couple dozen other people instead.

One thing that we never, ever seem to discuss is that when or if we have had to attack and hurt the bad guy, does it make any sense to give the guy an escape, a way out that he can take?

I fully believe that the counterattack against a bad guy should end when the engagement is no longer immediately threatening. But, what if all we did is corner the guy, put a bullet in his leg, and left him hiding behind the dumpster? What choice does he have, he has a bullet in his shoulder, he's trapped by a dumpster or in a corner, the guy who shot him is standing there screaming at him, and the very least that can happen is that he's going to be arrested? This guy behind the dumpster is probably expecting to be killed by that crazed dude with the gun and will have no choice but to keep shooting.

Should we back away from an engagement after dropping a BB into the guy's thigh and make him stop to look at it? Oh, heck yes. It's not our responsibility to stand our ground and keep shooting until the guy is dead.

This isn't the tactic to choose, obviously, carry an air soft or even a finger gun and run while the bad guy is laughing. But we keep going back to the idea that owning and carrying a "sub-par" gun will get us killed because we can't destroy the bad guy.

Even if the thing only puts the bad guy down for a few seconds, that's an opportunity to get to a better position. I don't think that anyone who has been shot will choose to continue his attack if there is a clear means of escape, or the guy who shot him has run.

Carrying a low level lethal weapon that is convenient and reliable isn't just better than nothing, it is what will almost certainly save your life. Hitting him is normally the only thing that matters. That hole will make anyone but the hardest, most determined fighter pause and reconsider, at the very least. If things go really well, a single round will put the guy on the ground long enough to avoid further contact.

All assuming that this would be safe to do. Shooting a guy in the mall and running away while he kills all of the pregnant women and children in the area seems to be kind of antisocial and irresponsible.

Having a gun that will kill a muskox isn't necessary under most normal times since muskox are usually not what you meet in the mall. A .380 with a good round and an accurate hit will be enough to stop the attack in I guess the vast majority of circumstances.

[JohnKSa]

I look at the chart provided and the numbers provided (12 inch penetration with good expansion) and see at least two that meet those requirements.

I suppose that assessment depends on what you mean by "good expansion". I don't see any that consistently penetrate to 12" and offer "good expansion".

The Hornady FTX Critical Defense is the only one of the loads that consistently penetrates to 12" and has what I would call "decent expansion". It shows between 40 & 50% expansion. 40-50% expansion isn't really "good" when you consider that most decent self-defense rounds in the more powerful calibers are going to expand by around 70% or more.

All of the other loads from the link that consistently make the 12" mark provide less than 15% expansion--if they expand at all.

Bottom line is that if you value penetration and expansion, it's important to understand that the .380ACP is going to make you compromise on either one or the other--or both--in ways that aren't required if you cross over the threshold to calibers that carry more momentum and energy than the .380ACP.

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.

Well, maybe that won't penetrate 12" with expanding ammo. Most calibers will get 12" of penetration with non-expanding ammo. But yes, your point is well-taken. Even calibers that the mainstream self-defense folks consider to be "inadequate" and that won't meet the FBI spec are often effective based on real-world results.

When my wife started carrying, she was adamant about carrying something small and light. Rather than tell her she had to go all in or forget about it, we looked around until we found her a gun that was small and light enough that she would carry it with her always. There is no ammunition for that gun/caliber that will meet FBI spec, but it will still very likely give her an edge over having to take an attacker on bare-handed.

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers.

You know, with all the differences of opinion when it comes to caliber selection and terminal ballistics, it's pretty remarkable that there doesn't seem to be any controversy at all amongst the experts about the value of expanding ammunition.

[Cosmodragoon]

Handgun hunting
Along with four decades in law enforcement

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers... if people got out and started putting metal in meat themselves, they would quickly see some reality that would change their notion of importance.

Have you done a lot of handgun hunting with so-called "marginal" calibers like .380?

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by rodfac

I'd suggest that you encourage her to find new employment. Short of that, she needs expert training with a gun/pepper spray that SHE can handle.

Avoidance of conflict is FAR better than toughing it out in a neighborhood that's explosive. No job/employer that routinely allows a young woman to close out the business day and leave with "the day's receipts" is worth working for. Get her out of the situation, then consider her concealed carry options.

Rod

While sound advice there rodfac, jobs in "safe areas" aren't exactly "growing on trees" these days, if it were my daughter i would want her to carry whatever gun she shoots with decent proficiency.