The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 6, 2019, 07:35 PM   #1
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
Using standards to guide training and practice for concealed carry

Recently, I was guided to these five tests of pistol standards (link) by reading Ellifritz's blog and thought I would use them to test my skills and see where I needed more work. I will let you read the five tests at the link but the last one was a difficult one for me with my five shot J frame while the first four weren't bad.

The last test requires three shots at one 6"x11" target, a transition to another 6"X11" target a yard away to be shot three times with both targets being five yards away. The shooter is then required to reload. This must be accomplished drawing from concealment with a par time of seven seconds. My plan was to fire three shots at the first target and two at the second, load two rounds from a speed strip and shoot the last round. Then I would dump the cylinder and reload with a speed loader. With my S&W 342, I was able to make five good hits in good time but then I tried to load two more rounds from a speed strip in order to fire the last shot before the reload but completely flubbed it. While I made five good hits in good time, and made a good sixth hit, I was terribly slow getting the first and last reloads.

Passing the first four tests and failing the fifth showed me I need to work on my reloads. Does anyone else have some tests/standards that you have used to guide your practice or training?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 6, 2019, 08:20 PM   #2
jar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2001
Location: Deep South Texas
Posts: 1,010
Don't try to load two, load 5 with a speed loader. Then once all targets scored do a full reload again. You may dump some unfired rounds but that is simply not an issue in a defense scenario.

Deal with the unspent rounds AFTER the targets have been addressed and you have a fully loaded handgun.

Using that technique you are left with both targets addressed, a full handgun and maybe one to four unspent rounds on the ground near your feet.
__________________
To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!
jar is offline  
Old February 6, 2019, 08:30 PM   #3
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
That's good advice. I shouldn't have bothered trying to load an empty gun with only two rounds as it wouldn't be advisable in a real life situation. A full reload with a speed loader would have been best.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 8, 2019, 09:02 PM   #4
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
I suppose these tests could also lead a person to technological fixes such as a six shot Kimber K6s or Colt Detective Special. An auto-loader with six or more shots could also make the fifth test in the link easier to pass.

For me, I'm gonna work on my reloads and perhaps the location on my body of my speedloader.

Has anyone else used tests like those linked in the OP to guide training or practice? Has anyone had tests like the ones in the OP lead them to change gear?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 8, 2019, 09:12 PM   #5
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,153
I think benchmark tests like these help gauge progress. Also kudos to you for doing them with a 5 shot revolver. My guess is those suggested times are typically based on a semiauto, so if you can get close to par you're doing well.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old February 9, 2019, 07:43 PM   #6
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,890
These seem like reasonable standards, although I have a couple debatable points with them.

1. How much are our averages skewed by contact distance shots? Grappling shots seem fairly common, when you review footage from Active Self Protection and others. If these are skewing averages, shots over 3-5yds are a bit more common than the average suggests. (AKA standard deviation matters)

2. The blog author commented that quick-draw may not be the most important skill, yet all of these standards are fairly dependent on having a reasonably quick presentation from concealment. Time-based standards of under a few seconds, with a draw from concealment tend to place significant value on a fast presentation. This is not necessarily bad, but does it help gauge our training against what our data and experience suggests are the most likely problems?
raimius is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 08:29 AM   #7
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
Those are some good points from all of you.

TunnelRat, I do think the tests were meant for a person using a firearm with a capacity of at least six rounds and autoladers are certainly easier to reload quickly.

raimus, you have good points on the distances and emphasis on quick draw. Perhaps some testing from longer distances and firing from the low ready would be good.

Another issue is that the tests at the link don't have any way to measure decision making such as shoot or no shoot targets. I suppose it could be fairly argued that the tests weren't intended to measure decision making but only to evaluate basic marksmanship skills the author thinks are most important for a concealed carrier.


These tests did let me know an area where I might need work. I need a better plan for a reload and to practice it.

Are there any tests or standards that you guys use to guide your practice or training? It could be a post qualification, a course of fire in a competition or something else.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 09:15 AM   #8
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 2,431
Is there a local IDPA club? Just go and run your J frame. Talk about practice.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 09:17 AM   #9
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,153
There are loads of good drills out there. Here's a link that has a number of them (from the site that used to be managed by the late Todd Green). https://pistol-training.com/drills

One of my favorite warm up drills is the One Hole Drill. At 10 ft or so pick a spot on a target and fire one round. The impact hole now becomes your point of aim. Fire another four rounds or so. You should end up with all rounds touching and ideally one ragged hole. It's a good way to build marksmanship. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/the-one-hole-drill/. This is also a good drill to combine with the Wall Drill. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/sus...andgun-skills/

I also find Vickers' The Test to be a good measure of a shooter's ability to deliver controlled successive shots, but again not something easy with a revolver. https://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/lar...raining-drill/

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 10:08 AM   #10
jar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2001
Location: Deep South Texas
Posts: 1,010
Talking standards and practice for a moment.

When I practice with my current carry gun(s) I try to set certain standards. With my revolvers there are two reload drills. One is the empty-reload; where I shoot until empty then do a blind reload, eyes down range and not looking at the revolver but revolver first up, then down. The goal is maximum effect while staying aware of the threats real and potential. The second drill is the "pause" drill. It is similar but assumes that there is a break in the action. In this drill I dump whatever is in the cylinder including unspent rounds and reload. The goal here is again to keep my attention on the threat area while making sure I do have as many rounds as possible should action resume.

The semiautomatics have slight different steps. With a semi (the 380s I most often carry) it is to shoot a set of three double taps and then drop the mag. Again eyes down range, blind reload. Here the goal is to not just be aware of the threat area but also have at least one in the chamber while doing the reload. If I start with 7 rounds (6 + 1) a set of three double taps leaves me with one in chamber and an empty magazine.

When I will be carrying the Sig P230 or Sig P290RS the drill above gets varied. With the P230 I start with 7+1 so I either do a set of four double taps or if there is a pause a set of three double taps and drop the mag with one round remaining in the mag and one in the chamber and do a blind reload.

The P290RS is an outlier again and has either 6 or 8 round magazines. That can be a real problem in reality so I have at least two of each versions and carry only one version at a time. That means that if I have to actually use it I will have only one drill to remember.
__________________
To be vintage it's gotta be older than me!
jar is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 07:26 PM   #11
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,701
I wouldn't put narrow parameters on what you "think" your gunfight is going to be like as you will probably be wrong. Stats have their place is basic planning but you seem to be basing your whole basket on someone eles idea of "standards".

Sure, you need to be able to get shots on target during a fast moving crisis. That is going to take having your head on straight, having substantial mental grit and resolve to get things done. You need to be able to control your gun to the degree that you land hits on your target. It doesn't have to be pretty and being an elite marksman does not mean you will win. Hits on target?..yes. Impressively ordered hits on target?.. not so much. Winning has to do with a lot of things .. skill, resolve, tactics, strategics, position, initiative, timing and happenstance.

If I were you, I would select 1 gun that I know I will carry and one that I am currently the most proficient with and I would invest myself in that platform. I would not worry about what I can or cant do with a j frame. There is nothing wrong with a snub revolver and I do own a couple of them but how practical are they given the availability of all sorts of similar sized guns if you have already decided that you are lacking in proficiency regarding that weapon type. I would select a gun, get involved in some force on force training and allow real (person vs person) scenarios mold my idea of what a gunfight involves. Maybe its 3 yards .. maybe its 13 yards .. maybe I reload or maybe I only need 1 shot. The bottom line is that training with a real training adversary will offer a lot of realistic insight that competition does not.

On speed.. I would say that nobody wants to be slow and nobody is trying to be slower on the draw but I am not really inclined to believe that speed of draw is going to determine the victor in many current day gunfights. I have never tried to be fast, I simply try to be fluid and efficient in my movements. I allow " my-speed" to be a byproduct of minimalistic mechanics and practice. I don't measure it.. it is what it is. I am as fast as I am and I don't put a timer on it, I think that is a mistake.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 10, 2019 at 07:32 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 08:03 AM   #12
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
I don't see the author of the link trying to predict what a future gunfight might be like and I am certainly not trying to do so. It also be the case that someone who can easily pass the tests at the link is killed in a future gunfight while someone who can't pass any of the five tests survives. What I see the author at the link attempting to do is to establish a baseline for skills that are most likely to be needed in a self defense situation that requires shooting. I don't think these tests are designed to improve skills but to identify areas that need improvement. The tests certainly aren't a guarantee of success but rather a tool to identify areas that might need work.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 01:33 PM   #13
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,683
"...there are tones of..." What do you suppose that means? Their editor needs to be fired.
If you can hit a 6"x11" target at the fabled 7 yards, you're good. Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.
One needs to keep in mind that military use of hand guns is done by MP's(extremely rarely) plus guys who have made serious tactical errors and have lost or let their rifle go empty. The military is only interested in shooting until the other guy stops being a threat too. Shooting to kill isn't necessarily the goal.
IPSC and IDPA are shooting games and are in no way practice for anything. So a target 'A' zone is irrelevant.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 02:09 PM   #14
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...there are tones of..." What do you suppose that means? Their editor needs to be fired.
If you can hit a 6"x11" target at the fabled 7 yards, you're good. Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.
One needs to keep in mind that military use of hand guns is done by MP's(extremely rarely) plus guys who have made serious tactical errors and have lost or let their rifle go empty. The military is only interested in shooting until the other guy stops being a threat too. Shooting to kill isn't necessarily the goal.
IPSC and IDPA are shooting games and are in no way practice for anything. So a target 'A' zone is irrelevant.
I'll remember to tell people if they attack me to only do so one at a time and to only fire X number of rounds just to keep it fair.

Obviously there are decisions that can be made to mitigate the amount of risk you face. But you don't always get a choice in all factors. Often criminals do work in groups, specifically because it does give them an advantage.

As for IDPA and IPSC, there's a video out there between Ian of Forgotten Weapons and Ken Hackathorn on the origins of those https://youtu.be/Q9B9FxNVXN8. The notion that there is nothing in those events of any value is to me overly simplistic.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 05:49 PM   #15
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,701
Quote:
Remember that CCW is not about combat. If you're in a situation where a reload is required or there are multiple assailants you've made a tactical error and are in way over your head.
There is so much wrong with that statement I will simply assume that it was offered as sarcasm.

Quote:
As for IDPA and IPSC, there's a video out there between Ian of Forgotten Weapons and Ken Hackathorn on the origins of those https://youtu.be/Q9B9FxNVXN8. The notion that there is nothing in those events of any value is to me overly simplistic
I agree that it wouldn't be altogether honest to suggest that gun-games offer nothing of value ( I think it does) but at the same time, its not combat training, its training for more gun games. I am simply a proponent of training within the proper context which includes proper tactics, strategics and mindset. I don't think you can have those things to a level that is acceptable to me when you put tasks on a timer and have no realistic acknowledgement regarding the danger that potential targets(badguys) pose in real life.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 11, 2019 at 06:17 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 06:17 PM   #16
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,312
Here is a pdf link to another set of standards which are on page 3 of the link. This set of standards by Paul Howe features shots from longer distances and less emphasis on drawing.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 06:52 PM   #17
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 9,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
There is so much wrong with that statement I will simply assume that it was offered as sarcasm.







I agree that it wouldn't be altogether honest to suggest that gun-games offer nothing of value ( I think it does) but at the same time, its not combat training, its training for more gun games. I am simply a proponent of training within the proper context which includes proper tactics, strategics and mindset. I don't think you can have those things to a level that is acceptable to me when you put tasks on a timer and have no realistic acknowledgement regarding the danger that potential targets(badguys) pose in real life.
I don't personally have an issue with putting tasks on a timer. Even in the real world there is a timer of sorts. Is speed penultimate? I don't think so no, and in fact some of the better "gunfighters" in history were neither overly fast nor overly accurate. Their ability to react judiciously and remain collected was more important. I do think timers can help monitor progress for certain gun handling abilities. To me it's less about how you did versus everyone else and more how you are doing for yourself.

As someone that has done 20+ training events and day long force on force with UTM I will say I have absolutely noticed training "scars" from IDPA and the like. Those mainly include the improper use of cover at the expense of speed, as many IDPA events don't penalize you for barely using the cover, as well as having trouble working through an area where there hasn't been a walkthrough nor was there a range officer to guide the person through the stage. I say this as someone whose involvement in IDPA consists of helping conduct events, but not competing myself because of what I thought were artificial limitations.

My point is that if someone has access to IDPA or the like through a range membership but perhaps not access to good defensive training there is something to be gained from competition. Of course the type of competition and the rules have an impact on the usefulness. I don't consider competition a substitute for training, but I have also seen firsthand people in training events who were "held back" by their lack of gun handling ability. These folks spent a lot of the days doing their best but missing out on what I saw as the finer points of certain lessons (which is admittedly subjective). I don't doubt these people still took something away that was valuable, I just think more practice beforehand would have yielded dividends. If competition motivates someone to practice then I'm for it, while acknowledging that it isn't necessary for one to compete to practice.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; February 11, 2019 at 08:15 PM.
TunnelRat is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.07215 seconds with 9 queries