HK Mark 23 VS. M1911 - Page 2

TxFlyFish · April 4, 2012, 06:03 PM

Has anyone seen/held a recoil spring from the Mk23?

Paul K · April 4, 2012, 06:07 PM

I'm one of the biggest HK fanboys there is, and I do own a MK23, but you are better off going with a USP Tactical or HK45c Tactical (MK24, which is what replaced the MK23). Both are smaller and extremely accurate, without sacrificing any reliability. The 45c Tactical has the advantage of being able to run add-on's without an adaptor as they are using standardized rails.

BloodOmen911 · April 5, 2012, 12:26 AM

I've heard good things about the USP. Is it practical for CCW?

TunnelRat · April 5, 2012, 12:36 AM

HK45c. I use it as a CCW. One of the most accurate and reliable guns I've ever used. The favorite of all I own.

Jason_G · April 5, 2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

I've heard good things about the USP. Is it practical for CCW?

A fullsize USP is a big gun, and the fullsize USP45 is even slightly bigger. I wouldn't try to conceal it. Those that do carry it usually either OC or have gone with an MTAC holster and serious cover garments. There's no concealing it in a T-shirt, and probably not in a button down. Well, I can't at least. Maybe someone can do it, but don't buy it thinking "CCW".

FWIW, USP45:

Commander size 1911:

Guess which one gets carried. I'll give you a hint, it starts with a "19" and ends with an "11".

The 1911 is so much thinner than the USP. It lies flat against you with a good holster, and doesn't print. Definitely not the case with the H&K. If I were determined to carry it, it would be in a fanny pack or something, which you will never see me wear....

Jason

rab · April 5, 2012, 10:39 PM

There is no comparison. 1911 was developed and adopted for the roll of a defensive side arm. The Mark 23 is not just a defensive sidearm, it can supplant the roll of main/offensive weapon. That's why it's so big. It has much more to do than the 1911 was ever dreamt of doing. Hell, put on a shoulder stock and optics, that 230gr 45cal slug will drop just about anything at 100yds and some.

5RWill · April 5, 2012, 11:11 PM

I realize that LE and other agencies use handguns as primaries as well. Still increasing the profile of it with the stock and all is impractical to me. Also would much rather have a rifle. Idk if i'd classify the HK doing more than a 1911 dreamt of. JMO

Paul K · April 6, 2012, 05:20 AM

The OP has made no mention of needing a suppressor. If you don't need one, have a look at the USP Expert or Elite. They are a bargain and are so accurate that they will freak you out!!

reticle · April 6, 2012, 09:16 AM

That's a great suggestion, Paul. The Expert is a fantastic gun. Mine is in .45, but they can be had in .40 and 9mm too. Worth noting is that the Experts and Mark 23s are out of production and word on the street is that they will not be in production again. So get 'em while you can.

osageid · April 6, 2012, 09:56 AM

I would actually like to have one of the elite or experts as well. Even used the guns are as good as new!! Trouble is most people will not part with them

Paul K · April 6, 2012, 05:13 PM

Yeah, you can find the Expert on GB for around 1k. That's a gun you can run over with your H1 and then enter a IPSC competition with.

A friend of mine, who's one that is highly qualified in both Karate and Ju-Jitsu and exclusively carries a first- gen Kimber Super Match (he's a hardcore 1911 guy) shot my Expert and even HE was blown away. His exact words were: "That gun is accurate as f**k!"

I've had a few problems with guns before. 92fs jammed the first 200 rounds. The Nighthawk I bought my dad had screwed up rifling. The Robinson Arm's XCR's gas block kept coming loose. Sig 226 X-Five had a burr on the sear.... We live in a world now where we have to 'accept' some flaws, failures, and defects. But as for Heckler and Koch- I implicitly expect them to work 100% right from round count zero. I've been collecting and shooting them for over 10 years now and I have yet to experience any sort of contradiction.

WVsig · April 6, 2012, 06:07 PM

A guy on the Sig Forum is selling a Mark 23 for $1400 no box but 2 mags IIRC.

Nevermind Sold!!!

reticle · April 6, 2012, 08:19 PM

Paul K · April 7, 2012, 12:30 AM

Pure pornography..!

PSP · May 8, 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

...the USP Expert or Elite. They are a bargain and are so accurate that they will freak you out!!

Couldn't have said it better. If you have to have the most rugged and robust, then the MK23 is unmatched. If you want pure accuracy and reliability on the range, the the Elite is tops IMHO. HK's dedicated target gun with a sweet, sweet trigger. CDNN has them for only $899.

vent51177 · May 9, 2012, 04:49 AM

For regular carry or Range use I would look at the HK45 over the Mark23.

The Mark 23 is oversized, almost Desert Eagle range and is more of a footnote for the old Offensive Handgun trials.

Other Great options are the HK USP or FNP 45 Tactical.

The FNP has the highest capacity of any 45 on the market and the tactical comes stock with a threaded Barrel.

The HK 45 is just plain SWEET.

Pilot · May 9, 2012, 06:54 AM

I shoot my HK USP Tactical .45 next to my custom shop Colt WWI Repro 01918, 1911 often. BOTH are extremely accurate pistols, but definitely different in feel.

I have NO experience with the MK 23, and while it intrigues me, I agree with some others that the Tac, or Elite are better values. Not that a decent 1911 can give you similar accuracy.

DBLAction454 · May 9, 2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

A fullsize USP is a big gun, and the fullsize USP45 is even slightly bigger. I wouldn't try to conceal it. Those that do carry it usually either OC or have gone with an MTAC holster and serious cover garments. There's no concealing it in a T-shirt, and probably not in a button down. Well, I can't at least. Maybe someone can do it, but don't buy it thinking "CCW".

I can do it with my USP45. No one has ever noticed. Even people who know I carry didn't realize it and I'm not a bear of a man. It is bulky and heavy but it can be done...

As to the OP. The Mark 23 is more reliable than pretty much any 1911 out there. Yes there are SOME flawless 1911 out there but I'd pick up the MK23 before any of them any day of the week....Oh and HK isnt making them anymore. Distributors still have a few sitting around but once they're sold thats it...

oplofilo · May 9, 2012, 09:53 AM

No 45 ACP ever made will ever beat the reliability and precision of a Mark 23. The H&K Mark 23 was projected and realized to meet the highest standard for a handgun. I fired about 20.000 rounds in mine Mark23 (it was heavily used when I purchased it) and I NEVER had a trouble, even feeding it with any kind of bullets I could grab around.
I wanted to test it so I did not clean it for about one year and you could remove with a spoon the dirt from inside the slide, well it continued to work flawlessly and with the same precision of ever.
There is no sense in comparing any 1911 to the Mark 23, it is like making a comparison beetwen a steam-engine and an impulse engine

reticle · May 9, 2012, 08:12 PM

Gats Italian · May 10, 2012, 03:25 AM

This thread has been hilarious. Thanks to many who oversold the HK.

Bottom line, the 1911 is still in massive production and the Mk. 23? Not so much.

A 1911 can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. It can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. The design has in fact been tested far more in the real world than any HK design ever made. It's the ultimate BTDT sidearm. 40 year old examples beat fresh XM9 contestants at various tests in those trials too. A 40 year old H&K is a crappy, blowback .380 called the HK4 or a VP-70 with the worst trigger ever fitted to a pistol.

If you get an HK, be sure to get a polo shirt with their logo too. Honor their marketing prowess because that's long been their best effort.

Catchabullet · May 10, 2012, 04:17 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEABZswQWDg

thats a plain jane milspec springfield.

mes228 · May 10, 2012, 09:34 AM

I've had 4 H&K's USP including the Tactical. The FN Tactical .45 is an improvement in my opinion.

DBLAction454 · May 10, 2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Bottom line, the 1911 is still in massive production and the Mk. 23? Not so much.

A 1911 can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. It can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. The design has in fact been tested far more in the real world than any HK design ever made. It's the ultimate BTDT sidearm. 40 year old examples beat fresh XM9 contestants at various tests in those trials too. A 40 year old H&K is a crappy, blowback .380 called the HK4 or a VP-70 with the worst trigger ever fitted to a pistol.

Bottom line. The 1911 is made by almost EVERY major manufacturer because they are popular pistols. Bottom line. Most 1911's (that are worth mention) are around $1k and u. Bottom line. Most 1k 1911's do not have the same reliability that $1k HK's do. Bottom line. The MK23 is a very expensive pistol which is why it's not as popular. Do you see more Taurus 1911's or Wilson Combat 1911's? Bottom line. HK's market is NOT targeted for the civilian market. This has been known for a long time. They focus on military and LE contracts. If they made crap guns then they would've never gotten their contracts and would've never stayed in business... If you don't like their marketing stance don't buy one. Isn't it funny how that most of the US special task teams such as Delta and SEALs use HK?

What happened 40 years ago is irrelevant. Are you going to tell me that the first 1911's were 100% perfect. The 1911 has such a following because its 101 years old. 1911's are great guns that have stood the test of time but the design is again over 100 years old.

The fact that you find this thread hilarious is hilarious to me because you laugh at other peoples opinions... Our responses are to the OP and you're responding to us. I'm glad we amuse you

Gats Italian · May 10, 2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

. . .Most 1k 1911's do not have the same reliability that $1k HK's do.

Most? That's why the HK fanboy is so funny, the affinity for exaggeration.

Quote:

Bottom line. The MK23 is a very expensive pistol which is why it's not as popular.

Higher end 1911s are very expensive pistols and sell like hotcakes. The Mk. 23 was never popular, even with the SEALs, because it is an inelegant pig.

Quote:

HK's market is NOT targeted for the civilian market. This has been known for a long time. They focus on military and LE contracts. If they made crap guns then they would've never gotten their contracts and would've never stayed in business...

You do know that HK's debt instruments (high yield bonds) were recently downgraded to Caa2, which is solidly "junk" status? They've been hand to mouth forever. As a result, they have even broken arms embargoes for a few euros.

G11=epic fail
P7M13=XM9 uncompetitive fail
XM8=fail

HK as a business? Nearly always on the precipice of failure.

Quote:

If you don't like their marketing stance don't buy one. Isn't it funny how that most of the US special task teams such as Delta and SEALs use HK?

It's never funny when the government wastes other people's money for something never drawn from the armory. When Bruce Willis is the only "SEAL" to fire the Mk. 23 in fictional anger, your weapon is more a marketing play than an "offensive pistol."

Quote:

What happened 40 years ago is irrelevant. Are you going to tell me that the first 1911's were 100% perfect. The 1911 has such a following because its 101 years old. 1911's are great guns that have stood the test of time but the design is again over 100 years old.

40 year old M1911A1 control pistols outperformed the HKP7M13 in XM9. The pistol has a following because when it is correctly made, it has always worked.

Quote:

The fact that you find this thread hilarious is hilarious to me because you laugh at other peoples opinions... Our responses are to the OP and you're responding to us. I'm glad we amuse you

Carry on. You're just feeding the OP unsubstantiated hype. Then again, save perhaps for the MP5 series, that's all HK has ever been selling.

April 5, 2012, 12:26 AM	#28
BloodOmen911 Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Longview, Texas Posts: 35	I've heard good things about the USP. Is it practical for CCW? __________________ Anyone who trades freedom for security, deserves neither. - Benjamin Franklin

April 5, 2012, 12:36 AM	#29
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,215	HK45c. I use it as a CCW. One of the most accurate and reliable guns I've ever used. The favorite of all I own. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

April 5, 2012, 10:39 PM	#31
rab Member Join Date: November 30, 2009 Posts: 62	Mark23 vs 1911 There is no comparison. 1911 was developed and adopted for the roll of a defensive side arm. The Mark 23 is not just a defensive sidearm, it can supplant the roll of main/offensive weapon. That's why it's so big. It has much more to do than the 1911 was ever dreamt of doing. Hell, put on a shoulder stock and optics, that 230gr 45cal slug will drop just about anything at 100yds and some. __________________ NRA Life Member-Army Vet-DV-Holmesburg F & G Artillery lends an air of dignity, to what would otherwise be just a savage brawl.....

April 5, 2012, 11:11 PM	#32
5RWill Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2008 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,654	I realize that LE and other agencies use handguns as primaries as well. Still increasing the profile of it with the stock and all is impractical to me. Also would much rather have a rifle. Idk if i'd classify the HK doing more than a 1911 dreamt of. JMO __________________ Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me."

April 6, 2012, 09:56 AM	#35
osageid Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2010 Posts: 286	I would actually like to have one of the elite or experts as well. Even used the guns are as good as new!! Trouble is most people will not part with them __________________ HK Mark 23 HK 45 HK USP .40 Glock 22,Glock 36

April 4, 2012, 06:03 PM	#26
TxFlyFish Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Posts: 1,246	Has anyone seen/held a recoil spring from the Mk23?

April 4, 2012, 06:07 PM	#27
Paul K Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 674	I'm one of the biggest HK fanboys there is, and I do own a MK23, but you are better off going with a USP Tactical or HK45c Tactical (MK24, which is what replaced the MK23). Both are smaller and extremely accurate, without sacrificing any reliability. The 45c Tactical has the advantage of being able to run add-on's without an adaptor as they are using standardized rails.

April 6, 2012, 05:20 AM	#33
Paul K Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 674	The OP has made no mention of needing a suppressor. If you don't need one, have a look at the USP Expert or Elite. They are a bargain and are so accurate that they will freak you out!!

April 6, 2012, 09:16 AM	#34
reticle Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2002 Location: ut. Posts: 341	That's a great suggestion, Paul. The Expert is a fantastic gun. Mine is in .45, but they can be had in .40 and 9mm too. Worth noting is that the Experts and Mark 23s are out of production and word on the street is that they will not be in production again. So get 'em while you can.

April 6, 2012, 05:13 PM	#36
Paul K Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 674	Yeah, you can find the Expert on GB for around 1k. That's a gun you can run over with your H1 and then enter a IPSC competition with. A friend of mine, who's one that is highly qualified in both Karate and Ju-Jitsu and exclusively carries a first- gen Kimber Super Match (he's a hardcore 1911 guy) shot my Expert and even HE was blown away. His exact words were: "That gun is accurate as f*k!" I've had a few problems with guns before. 92fs jammed the first 200 rounds. The Nighthawk I bought my dad had screwed up rifling. The Robinson Arm's XCR's gas block kept coming loose. Sig 226 X-Five had a burr on the sear.... We live in a world now where we have to 'accept' some flaws, failures, and defects. But as for Heckler and Koch- I implicitly expect them to work 100% right from round count zero.* I've been collecting and shooting them for over 10 years now and I have yet to experience any sort of contradiction.

April 6, 2012, 06:07 PM	#37
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	A guy on the Sig Forum is selling a Mark 23 for $1400 no box but 2 mags IIRC. Nevermind Sold!!! __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

April 6, 2012, 08:19 PM	#38
reticle Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2002 Location: ut. Posts: 341

April 7, 2012, 12:30 AM	#39
Paul K Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 674	Pure pornography..!

May 9, 2012, 04:49 AM	#41
vent51177 Member Join Date: February 27, 2010 Posts: 27	For regular carry or Range use I would look at the HK45 over the Mark23. The Mark 23 is oversized, almost Desert Eagle range and is more of a footnote for the old Offensive Handgun trials. Other Great options are the HK USP or FNP 45 Tactical. The FNP has the highest capacity of any 45 on the market and the tactical comes stock with a threaded Barrel. The HK 45 is just plain SWEET.

May 9, 2012, 06:54 AM	#42
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	I shoot my HK USP Tactical .45 next to my custom shop Colt WWI Repro 01918, 1911 often. BOTH are extremely accurate pistols, but definitely different in feel. I have NO experience with the MK 23, and while it intrigues me, I agree with some others that the Tac, or Elite are better values. Not that a decent 1911 can give you similar accuracy. __________________ Pilot

May 9, 2012, 09:53 AM	#44
oplofilo Member Join Date: March 17, 2011 Location: Roma, ITALIA Posts: 54	No 45 ACP ever made will ever beat the reliability and precision of a Mark 23. The H&K Mark 23 was projected and realized to meet the highest standard for a handgun. I fired about 20.000 rounds in mine Mark23 (it was heavily used when I purchased it) and I NEVER had a trouble, even feeding it with any kind of bullets I could grab around. I wanted to test it so I did not clean it for about one year and you could remove with a spoon the dirt from inside the slide, well it continued to work flawlessly and with the same precision of ever. There is no sense in comparing any 1911 to the Mark 23, it is like making a comparison beetwen a steam-engine and an impulse engine __________________ Repente dives factus est nemo bonus. Nullius boni sine socio iucunda possessio est.

May 9, 2012, 08:12 PM	#45
reticle Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2002 Location: ut. Posts: 341

May 10, 2012, 03:25 AM	#46
Gats Italian Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Posts: 451	This thread has been hilarious. Thanks to many who oversold the HK. Bottom line, the 1911 is still in massive production and the Mk. 23? Not so much. A 1911 can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. It can be made as reliable as any HK ever made. The design has in fact been tested far more in the real world than any HK design ever made. It's the ultimate BTDT sidearm. 40 year old examples beat fresh XM9 contestants at various tests in those trials too. A 40 year old H&K is a crappy, blowback .380 called the HK4 or a VP-70 with the worst trigger ever fitted to a pistol. If you get an HK, be sure to get a polo shirt with their logo too. Honor their marketing prowess because that's long been their best effort. __________________ Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

May 10, 2012, 04:17 AM	#47
Catchabullet Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 317	...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEABZswQWDg thats a plain jane milspec springfield. __________________ I may be a Scientist but....I never said I was smart.

May 10, 2012, 09:34 AM	#48
mes228 Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2005 Posts: 628	H&K I've had 4 H&K's USP including the Tactical. The FN Tactical .45 is an improvement in my opinion.