Lessening recoil of my old shotgun

KyleH · November 25, 2007, 04:08 PM

Hello. I have a Winchester Model 1897 from 1919. It is an external hammer shotgun which weighs about 7 lbs and has a steel butt plate. (As full recoil as they come.) I would really like to reduce the recoil of it when shooting it. I have trouble keeping the shotgun on my front deltoid, it tends top slip down between my deltoid and bicep without me noticing and the next day I will have a non visible bruise. Is it supposed to sit in this groove or right on your front deltoid?

I know I can use low recoil ammo, but it is a pain because its not available locally.

What is your experience with various recoil pads? Any other suggestions?

I am new to shooting and have only put about 6 rounds through this shotgun ever.

Slopemeno · November 25, 2007, 04:13 PM

You'll notice the recoil less after you get used to shooting it more.

That being said- a properly fitted recoil pad like a Pachmayer Sporting Clays will make the gun much more comfortable to shoot. They arent cheap, and usually require permanently modifying the stock to get your length of pull correct.

Another route you could try is a PAST shield, which is a pad you wear.

97's are nice. They're a piece of history.

KevininPa · November 25, 2007, 05:22 PM

I have a Spartan coach gun that I put a Limbsaver on. Best thing I ever did.

Kevin in Pa

BigJimP · November 26, 2007, 07:21 PM

Recoil is primarily a function of the weight of the gun, the velocity of the load you shoot and the weight of the charge in ounces. So increasing the weight of the gun by about a pound will decrease the recoil about 12 % which is a lot. I don't know what kind of loads you are shooting but drop down to a 1 oz load at about 3 Drams or around 1200 fps will probably help a lot as well. The balance of a gun is not something you want to mess with too much - but adding weight in the stock can be a good way to increase the overall weight ( under the butt plate and inside the stock ). You can also buy a mercury filled cannister - that suppresses recoil - and absorbs it a little - that you can put inside a stock to add weight and reduce recoil. Wrapping it in a cloth / or taping it up and putting it inside the stock ( so it doesn't move is critical ) and easy to do. You could also put some pellets in a fabric pouch - and just seal it with tape - and add close to a LB by doing that ( depends on how much room there is inside the stock on your gun ).

Putting a recoil pad on the gun - and making sure you are holding the gun properly in the crease in your shoulder - and holding it tightly at the "pistol grip" area will probably make it feel better - but the gun will still have the same recoil. But fundamentals - keeping your arm up in the proper position, as you shoulder and fire the gun, keeps the butt from walking down your arm, and good fundamentals will help you a lot. Go out to your local gun club - ask around - see if someone will give you some tips and help you out a little / shooting a shotgun that beats you up is not good / and it can be fixed with fundamentals / maybe some stock adjustments. Well fit guns should not beat you up .

KyleH · November 27, 2007, 12:37 PM

The gun is a little long for me, but taking the 1/2" butt plate off puts it at the correct length for me. Also wearing good hearing protection I found was a great way to reduce recoil. Now it sounds like a .22 going off rather than the space shuttle coming in.

I will try some recoil pads out.

tomh1426 · November 27, 2007, 12:48 PM

How does good hearing protection reduce recoil?
I dont think they work but how about one of those mercury tubes in the stock.
Wear a heavy jacket and get some light loads, youll be set

Bill DeShivs · November 27, 2007, 01:29 PM

I imagine your old Winchester is chambered for shorter shells than 2-3/4". Having it rechambered will certainly reduce the kick of modern loads!

KyleH · November 27, 2007, 01:34 PM

I am pretty sure its for 3" or 2-3/4". It loads up 2-3/4 fine and on top of that it hold 6+1 of 2-3/4 in the stock tube. Although it tends to load funky if I keep 6 in it for some reason. I usually just keep 5.

Good hearing protection reduces recoil because it doesn't make me flinch when I shoot it.

What is rechambering?

BigJimP · November 28, 2007, 05:06 PM

curing a flinch with hearing protection isn't a recoil problem ....... ( ear protection is a good thing / especially if you want to be able to hear long term ) and you should always use them ( even in the field ).

Jeff Mulliken · November 28, 2007, 08:12 PM

Cutting down a 90 year old stock to put on a modern recoil pad would be a tragedy. Why ruin it's classic lines?

If you just want a gun to shoot then you should sell the classic and go buy a Mossberg or Remington.

In the meantime shoot 1 oz loads, they are not THAT hard to find.

Jeff

Hawg · November 28, 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

I dont think they work but how about one of those mercury tubes in the stock.

They work very well. They'll tame an EMF Handi Rifle in 450 Marlin down to 12 gauge levels.

Instead of cutting your stock down get another one to cut down. Numrich sells them or you can get one for the Norinco 97's to cut down, they fit originals.

Quote:

I am pretty sure its for 3" or 2-3/4". It loads up 2-3/4 fine

It's definitly NOT chambered for 3". It could be chambered for 2 3/4, not sure when they started doing that. Of course a 2 3/4 will chamber in a 2 1/2" chamber because shotgun shells are measured after they're fired not before.

Bill DeShivs · November 28, 2007, 11:05 PM

i would think it's probably not chambered for 2-3/4", either.
As Hawg said, you can chamber the shells, but when you fire the gun, pressures build rapidly. You could burst the barrel, at least. Have it checked. A gunsmith can lengthen the chamber for you ( rechambering.)

Neanderthal · November 30, 2007, 09:26 AM

I agree with others that shortening this stock would be a real shame. Shotgun abuse of the worst kind. But, if you need to install a recoil pad on another gun someday, I strongly, strongly recommend a Limbsaver. I screwed an exact fit model on a newer "inertia driven" shotgun and it made an unbelievable difference. I felt AT LEAST a 40% reduction in recoil! Almost unbelievable. You just have to experience these pads for yourself, they are that good! Also the customer service was first rate. I ordered mine online and it came from Washington state to my door in ND in three days!

Buzzcook · December 1, 2007, 04:18 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897

I'd be willing to bet 2 1/2" shells are what you should use for your Winchester.
There are plenty of padded vests around that will help with recoil and help you keep the stock in the right position.

I have an old 20ga pump. It was a joy to shoot. I took off the rubber shoulder pad because it was getting old and brittle. Tried shooting it without the pad and the recoil made it much less than fun to shoot. Now with a new pad on its sweet as pie again.

This is the most popular exposed hammer pump shotgun ever. Like others have said it'd be a shame to cut down the stock.
If you feel you need to have a shorter stock then replace this one but save it to put back on the gun when you plan to sell it.

KyleH · December 2, 2007, 01:05 PM

Why did you link that wikipedia article I can't see where it says anything about the type of shells used?

Bill DeShivs · December 2, 2007, 03:02 PM

I'm not sure when the 2-3/4" 12 ga. was introduced, but I'm sure it was after 1919! If your gun was made in 1919, then it is chambered for 2-1/2" shells. Shooting longer ones is very dangerous!

KyleH · December 2, 2007, 03:14 PM

Well you shouldn't be :P

http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional...ster_93_97.htm

It shoots 2-3/4. Mine is an E series.

Bill DeShivs · December 2, 2007, 04:09 PM

Then I'm wrong, but it never hurts to be sure!
Bill

kozak6 · December 2, 2007, 06:19 PM

You could try a slip-on recoil pad, although it will change the length of pull.

Do any of your friends reload?

Jeff Mulliken · December 3, 2007, 12:20 AM

My 1904 and 1906 12 ga guns have 2 3/4" chambers. On the 16 ga shorter shell were the norm till later but on 12's the most common length was 2 3/4's well before that gun was made.

All that being said, you cannot measure the chamber length with a shell....2 3/4" shells are not 2 3/4" until you shoot them. Get a smith to put a gauge in it and measure it the right way.

Jeff

crowbeaner · December 3, 2007, 02:36 PM

BPI sells slip on Pachmayr recoil pads for $11 and shipping. I'm going to order one myself for my A5. I measured some Federal factory loads the other day and they were 2 1/4 inches as loaded. When they are shot they are 2 3/4. That was the high brass 1 1/8 oz. heavy field load of #6 shot at Wally world. The MV is 1250, which is the same as a heavy trap load I use. The RP Express loading of 1 1/4 oz. at 1330 fps will knock down pheasants at 60 yards if your gun will pattern well. I handload the 1 1/4 oz loads because even with $50 a bag shot I can load them cheaper than I can buy them, although it is quickly becoming almost the same cost. The Federal load above will suffice for much of your scattergun needs, and they are $5 a box right now. The largest shot I found was #6, though you might find heavier loads with larger shot at a big sporting goods store. They are probably lots more money though. I would just take off the buttplate and add the slip on pad. That way you are only changing the length of pull around 1/2". CB.

ocharry · December 4, 2007, 10:41 PM

Bill and Hawg are on the money on this ,, you need to have the chamber checked for length and have the forcing cone lengthened while you are at it,,,,,you will be amazed at the differance

my .02 YMMV

ocharry

.45 COLT · December 4, 2007, 11:23 PM

I believe the Model 1897 12 Gauge was made with 2 5/8" chambers until around 1928, when they started the 2 3/4" chambers in that model. Winchester cut the short chambers later than other manufacturers.

DC

auto45 · December 5, 2007, 09:24 AM

I'd "estimate" how many rounds you are really going to shoot through the gun in a year..if you can.

Then, as suggested, add a slip-on recoil pad and buy some brand name "low-recoil" shotgun shells. It "hurts", but you'll get over it when your shoulder doesn't hurt. And, if this is a "fun gun" that you might shoot 100 rounds a year, your extra expense is probably $15.00.

And, it sounds like it would help to have some "instruction" on shooting a shotgun, since your new and your shooting a fixed breeched stocked gun with lot's of drop, etc. Meaning, I've shot enough 12 gauge shells to kill brain cells with "fitted, target stocks, and your gun would probably kick me too!

November 25, 2007, 04:08 PM	#1
KyleH Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2007 Posts: 58	Lessening recoil of my old shotgun Hello. I have a Winchester Model 1897 from 1919. It is an external hammer shotgun which weighs about 7 lbs and has a steel butt plate. (As full recoil as they come.) I would really like to reduce the recoil of it when shooting it. I have trouble keeping the shotgun on my front deltoid, it tends top slip down between my deltoid and bicep without me noticing and the next day I will have a non visible bruise. Is it supposed to sit in this groove or right on your front deltoid? I know I can use low recoil ammo, but it is a pain because its not available locally. What is your experience with various recoil pads? Any other suggestions? I am new to shooting and have only put about 6 rounds through this shotgun ever.

November 27, 2007, 01:29 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I imagine your old Winchester is chambered for shorter shells than 2-3/4". Having it rechambered will certainly reduce the kick of modern loads! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 28, 2007, 11:05 PM	#12
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	i would think it's probably not chambered for 2-3/4", either. As Hawg said, you can chamber the shells, but when you fire the gun, pressures build rapidly. You could burst the barrel, at least. Have it checked. A gunsmith can lengthen the chamber for you ( rechambering.) __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 2, 2007, 03:02 PM	#16
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I'm not sure when the 2-3/4" 12 ga. was introduced, but I'm sure it was after 1919! If your gun was made in 1919, then it is chambered for 2-1/2" shells. Shooting longer ones is very dangerous! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 2, 2007, 03:14 PM	#17
KyleH Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2007 Posts: 58	Well you shouldn't be :P http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional...ster_93_97.htm It shoots 2-3/4. Mine is an E series. Last edited by KyleH; December 2, 2007 at 03:18 PM. Reason: Found correct info.

November 25, 2007, 04:13 PM	#2
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	You'll notice the recoil less after you get used to shooting it more. That being said- a properly fitted recoil pad like a Pachmayer Sporting Clays will make the gun much more comfortable to shoot. They arent cheap, and usually require permanently modifying the stock to get your length of pull correct. Another route you could try is a PAST shield, which is a pad you wear. 97's are nice. They're a piece of history.

November 25, 2007, 05:22 PM	#3
KevininPa Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2007 Posts: 253	I have a Spartan coach gun that I put a Limbsaver on. Best thing I ever did. Kevin in Pa

November 26, 2007, 07:21 PM	#4
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Recoil is primarily a function of the weight of the gun, the velocity of the load you shoot and the weight of the charge in ounces. So increasing the weight of the gun by about a pound will decrease the recoil about 12 % which is a lot. I don't know what kind of loads you are shooting but drop down to a 1 oz load at about 3 Drams or around 1200 fps will probably help a lot as well. The balance of a gun is not something you want to mess with too much - but adding weight in the stock can be a good way to increase the overall weight ( under the butt plate and inside the stock ). You can also buy a mercury filled cannister - that suppresses recoil - and absorbs it a little - that you can put inside a stock to add weight and reduce recoil. Wrapping it in a cloth / or taping it up and putting it inside the stock ( so it doesn't move is critical ) and easy to do. You could also put some pellets in a fabric pouch - and just seal it with tape - and add close to a LB by doing that ( depends on how much room there is inside the stock on your gun ). Putting a recoil pad on the gun - and making sure you are holding the gun properly in the crease in your shoulder - and holding it tightly at the "pistol grip" area will probably make it feel better - but the gun will still have the same recoil. But fundamentals - keeping your arm up in the proper position, as you shoulder and fire the gun, keeps the butt from walking down your arm, and good fundamentals will help you a lot. Go out to your local gun club - ask around - see if someone will give you some tips and help you out a little / shooting a shotgun that beats you up is not good / and it can be fixed with fundamentals / maybe some stock adjustments. Well fit guns should not beat you up .

November 27, 2007, 12:37 PM	#5
KyleH Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2007 Posts: 58	The gun is a little long for me, but taking the 1/2" butt plate off puts it at the correct length for me. Also wearing good hearing protection I found was a great way to reduce recoil. Now it sounds like a .22 going off rather than the space shuttle coming in. I will try some recoil pads out.

November 27, 2007, 12:48 PM	#6
tomh1426 Senior Member Join Date: September 17, 2005 Location: Youngtown Arizona Posts: 1,135	How does good hearing protection reduce recoil? I dont think they work but how about one of those mercury tubes in the stock. Wear a heavy jacket and get some light loads, youll be set

November 27, 2007, 01:34 PM	#8
KyleH Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2007 Posts: 58	I am pretty sure its for 3" or 2-3/4". It loads up 2-3/4 fine and on top of that it hold 6+1 of 2-3/4 in the stock tube. Although it tends to load funky if I keep 6 in it for some reason. I usually just keep 5. Good hearing protection reduces recoil because it doesn't make me flinch when I shoot it. What is rechambering?

November 28, 2007, 05:06 PM	#9
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	curing a flinch with hearing protection isn't a recoil problem ....... ( ear protection is a good thing / especially if you want to be able to hear long term ) and you should always use them ( even in the field ).

November 28, 2007, 08:12 PM	#10
Jeff Mulliken Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 250	Cutting down a 90 year old stock to put on a modern recoil pad would be a tragedy. Why ruin it's classic lines? If you just want a gun to shoot then you should sell the classic and go buy a Mossberg or Remington. In the meantime shoot 1 oz loads, they are not THAT hard to find. Jeff

November 30, 2007, 09:26 AM	#13
Neanderthal Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Posts: 36	I agree with others that shortening this stock would be a real shame. Shotgun abuse of the worst kind. But, if you need to install a recoil pad on another gun someday, I strongly, strongly recommend a Limbsaver. I screwed an exact fit model on a newer "inertia driven" shotgun and it made an unbelievable difference. I felt AT LEAST a 40% reduction in recoil! Almost unbelievable. You just have to experience these pads for yourself, they are that good! Also the customer service was first rate. I ordered mine online and it came from Washington state to my door in ND in three days!

December 1, 2007, 04:18 AM	#14
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897 I'd be willing to bet 2 1/2" shells are what you should use for your Winchester. There are plenty of padded vests around that will help with recoil and help you keep the stock in the right position. I have an old 20ga pump. It was a joy to shoot. I took off the rubber shoulder pad because it was getting old and brittle. Tried shooting it without the pad and the recoil made it much less than fun to shoot. Now with a new pad on its sweet as pie again. This is the most popular exposed hammer pump shotgun ever. Like others have said it'd be a shame to cut down the stock. If you feel you need to have a shorter stock then replace this one but save it to put back on the gun when you plan to sell it.

December 2, 2007, 01:05 PM	#15
KyleH Junior member Join Date: September 1, 2007 Posts: 58	Why did you link that wikipedia article I can't see where it says anything about the type of shells used?

December 2, 2007, 04:09 PM	#18
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Then I'm wrong, but it never hurts to be sure! Bill __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 2, 2007, 06:19 PM	#19
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	You could try a slip-on recoil pad, although it will change the length of pull. Do any of your friends reload?

December 3, 2007, 12:20 AM	#20
Jeff Mulliken Senior Member Join Date: July 13, 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 250	My 1904 and 1906 12 ga guns have 2 3/4" chambers. On the 16 ga shorter shell were the norm till later but on 12's the most common length was 2 3/4's well before that gun was made. All that being said, you cannot measure the chamber length with a shell....2 3/4" shells are not 2 3/4" until you shoot them. Get a smith to put a gauge in it and measure it the right way. Jeff

December 3, 2007, 02:36 PM	#21
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	BPI sells slip on Pachmayr recoil pads for $11 and shipping. I'm going to order one myself for my A5. I measured some Federal factory loads the other day and they were 2 1/4 inches as loaded. When they are shot they are 2 3/4. That was the high brass 1 1/8 oz. heavy field load of #6 shot at Wally world. The MV is 1250, which is the same as a heavy trap load I use. The RP Express loading of 1 1/4 oz. at 1330 fps will knock down pheasants at 60 yards if your gun will pattern well. I handload the 1 1/4 oz loads because even with $50 a bag shot I can load them cheaper than I can buy them, although it is quickly becoming almost the same cost. The Federal load above will suffice for much of your scattergun needs, and they are $5 a box right now. The largest shot I found was #6, though you might find heavier loads with larger shot at a big sporting goods store. They are probably lots more money though. I would just take off the buttplate and add the slip on pad. That way you are only changing the length of pull around 1/2". CB. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

December 4, 2007, 10:41 PM	#22
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 687	Bill and Hawg are on the money on this ,, you need to have the chamber checked for length and have the forcing cone lengthened while you are at it,,,,,you will be amazed at the differance my .02 YMMV ocharry

December 4, 2007, 11:23 PM	#23
.45 COLT Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 308	I believe the Model 1897 12 Gauge was made with 2 5/8" chambers until around 1928, when they started the 2 3/4" chambers in that model. Winchester cut the short chambers later than other manufacturers. DC

December 5, 2007, 09:24 AM	#24
auto45 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Posts: 427	I'd "estimate" how many rounds you are really going to shoot through the gun in a year..if you can. Then, as suggested, add a slip-on recoil pad and buy some brand name "low-recoil" shotgun shells. It "hurts", but you'll get over it when your shoulder doesn't hurt. And, if this is a "fun gun" that you might shoot 100 rounds a year, your extra expense is probably $15.00. And, it sounds like it would help to have some "instruction" on shooting a shotgun, since your new and your shooting a fixed breeched stocked gun with lot's of drop, etc. Meaning, I've shot enough 12 gauge shells to kill brain cells with "fitted, target stocks, and your gun would probably kick me too!