Reloading .223

[71Eagle]

I know there are a lot of different opinions on shooting 5.56 out of a .223. I know the reasons they say you shouldn't. I don't really want to get into that.

As far as reloading, I don't think there should be a difference, but my question is:

Is there any reason you can't use 5.56 headstamped brass to reload .223?

I read that the 5.56 brass is thicker and that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures and there's a difference in headspace. But since you're basically loading at lower pressure for .223, again, is there any reason you can't use 5.56 brass?

My current load is 25grs of IMR 4895 with a .55gr HPBT Sierra bullet. It's a very accurate load.

All constructive opinions are welcomed.

Thanks.

[oldreloader]

I load them both the same..But I don't load hot.

[SVTCobra306]

I sort military and suspected military brass off from my commercial .223 brass. It gets its own load workups due to the possibility of a reduced case volume, I don't load very hot so thus far I haven't had any real differences, but that could change.

If you look below though, I suppose I have been mistaken. I haven't weighed or done volume tests myself.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The .223 Remington is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi max average.
I find I can get long brass life with that case head design if I run 75,000 psi in Quickload estimation. I do not do that in AR15s that are not gas adjustable. 5.56 is registered at 62,366 psi.
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Contrast this with 22-250 and 270 that are SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi max average and I can only get up to 67,000 psi in Quickload and be sure of long brass life with that case head design.
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In both case heads, the limit for me in strong rifles is loose primer pockets.
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If I fill up a .223 case with IMR4895 to the top, I can get 27 ~ 28 gr in the case, but I can't seat the bullet.
The most I can compress and crush in there is ~ 25.5 gr.
That gives me 50 kpsi in Quickload.
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So I personally do not worry about too much IMR4895 in a .223 with a 55 gr bullet. But it is very accurate, you are right. H335 gives a lot more velocity, but the groups are larger... and higher on the target at 200y.

[shastaboat]

The basic difference in the rounds is the amount of freebore or throat. The 5.56 has a longer throat. I load .223/5.56 in bulk and load so that the rounds will feed from an AR magazine. Recommended OAL is 2.25". If you load to that dimention either .223 or 5.56 brass run through a .223 sizing die will shoot in either chamber. I do not sort brass either commercial or military. Group size is better tha .5 MOA in any of my .223/5.56 weapons whether bolt or AR. I use H335 or AA2230. I have not tried CFE223 as I need to bulk order more powder and no wholesaler has any in quanity. I am considering buying a .22 cal throating reamer and deep throating all my .223 firearms to 5.56 throating specs.

I doubt if any reader on this forum has the equipment to measure PSI or CUP so quoting a SAAMI designation is irrelivant. Using case web measurement pressure indications and chronographs is what we have available. Using data and quoting Quickload is pie in the sky. If you want to really know what your handloads are doing you need to use a chronograph. Others that have been in the habit of quoting Quickload or a similar computer program have opened their eyes once they acquire a chronograph.

[steve4102]

Is there any reason you can't use 5.56 headstamped brass to reload .223?

I read that the 5.56 brass is thicker and that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures and there's a difference in headspace. But since you're basically loading at lower pressure for .223, again, is there any reason you can't use 5.56 brass?

My current load is 25grs of IMR 4895 with a .55gr HPBT Sierra bullet. It's a very accurate load.

No reason at all not to use 5.56 brass. It is the same as 223 brass with a different marking on the head.

There is no headspace difference between the 223 and the 5.56. Even if there was that would not affect your ability to use 5.56 brass. There is no such thing as 5.56 loading dies.

You read Wrong, that is a Myth that will not go away. 5.56 brass is NOT thicker and does NOT have less case capacity than 223 brass. In fact it often times has More case capacity.

[chiefr]

Whether 5.56 or 223, this number can be a real PITA in developing accurate loads if the reloader is unfamiliar with his barrels twist rate.

[stnosc]

Originally Posted by steve4102

You read Wrong, that is a Myth that will not go away. 5.56 brass is NOT thicker and does NOT have less case capacity than 223 brass. In fact it often times has More case capacity.

Absolutely correct!

[Clark]

The military 7.62x51 brass is heavier than the .308 Win brass.
The military 5.56x45 brass is NOT heavier than 223 Rem brass.

That confusion's half life could be measured in years.

[Farmland]

I hate it when you only take part of a web site article and post it. This little piece is also from the same article that the nice chart was taken from.

"223 Remington vs. 5.56×45–Chambering and Throat Considerations
Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56×45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56×45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56×45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56×45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass."

REF : http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

Now the answer is you can use either brass in the .233 however you can only shoot and load 5.56 load data for a gun marketed 5.56 on the barrel.

I am sorry I forgot to add an important part about reloading.

It is generally safe to reload 5.56 cases to 233 but you should account for the possibility of a thicker case in the 5.56 walls. Thus it is advisable to always reduce your initial powder capacity and work up developing a new load when using 5.56 brass.

[madmo44mag]

I just roll over laughing ever time this debate comes up.

Now the answer is you can use either brass in the .233 however you can only shoot and load 5.56 load data for a gun marketed 5.56 on the barrel.

That is the facts.

Now also noted and also a fact:

It is generally safe to reload 5.56 cases to 233 but you should account for the possibility of a thicker case in the 5.56 walls. Thus it is advisable to always reduce your initial powder capacity and work up developing a new load when using 5.56 brass.

Sooooooooooooooo, the smart shooter / loader is loading light to extend the life of their brass so when it is all said and done what difference does it make as long as you remember loading .223 in 5.56 cambering = GOOD & loading 5.56 in .223 cambering = BAD!

Just my nickel and a quarter.

[steve4102]

It is generally safe to reload 5.56 cases to 233 but you should account for the possibility of a thicker case in the 5.56 walls. Thus it is advisable to always reduce your initial powder capacity and work up developing a new load when using 5.56 brass.

Again 5.56 cases are NOT thicker and do not have less case capacity than 223 brass.

From Sierra.

The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly.

Link
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm

[Farmland]

Not to be picky but do you read what you post?

" We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. "

However anyone can do what they want to. I think I have given safe sound advice.

[steve4102]

I think I have given safe sound advice.

As have I, 5.56 brass is not thicker and does not have less case capacity than 223 brass.

One more.

[Clark]

I just weighed a handful of cleaned and deprimed 223 and 5.56 mixed brass on an Ohaus dial-0-grain 3100 grain capacity scale.

Win 93 gr
LC01 92
Win 92
LC02 92
LC01 93
PMC 91
LC01 91
LC01 93
LC91 91
LC02 91
WIN 94
SS109 94 96
LC98 91
WIN 94
RP 92
LC89 93
RP [Nickel] 90
5.56 223 HP 94
LC03 92
5.56 223 HP 94
LC00 91
PMC 92
CL01 91
LC01 92
LC87 92
Win 93
LC89 92
LC02 91
LC02 92
LC83 92
LC01 91
LC04 93
Win 95
Win 94
RP 93
RTA P87 92
WCC84 92
LC02 91
LC02 91
TZZ95 94
RP 93
LC70 94
LC02 91
SS109 94 94
LC83 92
LC02 91
LC91 92
LC02 91
LC02 92
RP 93

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[steve4102]

I just weighed a handful of cleaned and deprimed 223 and 5.56 mixed brass on an Ohaus dial-0-grain 3100 grain capacity scale.

Case weight is not a good indicator of actual case capacity. Take a look at the chart posted by stnosc, note no direct correlation between case weight and case capacity.

For example, PMP brass weighed 12.5gr more than LC 06 brass and only had .7gr capacity loss. Lapua weighed less than PMP by .5gr yet also had a loss in case capacity of 1.9gr.

[stnosc]

Originally Posted by Farmland

Not to be picky but do you read what you post?

" We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. "

Originally Posted by Farmland

I hate it when you only take part of a web site article and post it. This little piece is also from the same article that the nice chart was taken from.

Military 5.56×45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass."

Not sure what you're trying to say here, because you're trying to prove one thing with a quote and then posting quite the opposite viewpoint to further support your belief.

So now I must ask, do YOU read what YOU post?

Me? I'll go with my experience and say that I handload and use ONLY military 5.56 cases (Lake City) and have yet to worry about less case capacity in them.

[steve4102]

My current 223/5.56 brass.

GFL(223) dry weight-102.4gr
With H20-131.4
Case capacity in grains of H20-29gr

Remington(223) Dry weight-95.2gr
With H20-125.1gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-29.9gr

LC(5.56)Dry weight-96.3gr
With H20-126.7gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-30.4gr.

[Clark]

I woke up this morning realizing I should have interpreted my data in my last post.

The density of brass is ~ 8.5 grains/ cubic centimeter.
The density of water is = 1.0 grains/ cubic centimeter.
The density ratio is 8.5:1
8.5 grains of brass displaces 1 gr of water.
1 gr of brass displaces .12 gr water

The brass I weighed was from 90 to 96 grains of brass.
That brass displaced between 10.5 gr of water and 11.3 gr of water.
So we would expect a range in water capacity of .8 gr of water.
But, when we look at steve4102's post at 8:12, we see he quotes a 1.2 gr range of water capacity.
Where is the truth, 1.2 gr water range or 0.8 gr of water?
The first ~.3" of the case does not expand [see pic of cross sectioned brass below], and lends credence to the 1.2 gr water.
The forward ~ 1.45" expands and lends credence to the 0.8 gr water.
The balance point is ~ .35", so the truth is near the middle or 1 gr of water range.

Using quick load to find the difference in pressure in a .223 with a 1 gr change in water capacity, from 29.3 to 30.3 gr water, using the OP's 55 gr and 25 gr of IMR4895, then we see a range of 45,798 psi 3,122 fps change to 41,516 psi 3,068 fps.

That to me is outside the realm of concern, so I will heat up the example.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=h335


pic left to right: unfired, 28, 29, 30, and 31 gr H335 55 gr Vmax
a) 25.3 gr [Hodgdon load], extractor groove .329", 0% overload 54 kpsi
b) 28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 77 kpsi
c) 29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 89kpsi
d) 30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 103kpsi
e) 31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 120kpsi

If we increase the case capacity from 29.3 gr water to 30.3 gr, then the estimate becomes

a) 25.3 gr 49kpsi
b) 28 gr 70 kpsi
c) 29 gr 80kpsi
d) 30 gr 92kpsi
e) 31 gr 106kpsi

So the threshold of long brass life is somewhere between 89kpsi and 103 kpsi at 29.3 gr water capacity brass and between 80kpsi and 92 kpsi with 30.3 gr water capacity brass.

If people would just load at 55kpsi like SAAMI says or 62,366 psi like NATO says, then they would not have to worry about pressure between 29.3 gr water brass and 30.3 gr water brass.

[mikld]

Holy crap! All this over how big the inside of a case is? If there are case capacity differences an experienced, careful, common sense reloader will not have any problems. Heck, I know what chamber my rifle has, I know how to size my brass, and I know how to load for my rifle. I never load to max. so any difference in case capacity is moot...

[Flea21]

Originally Posted by mikld

Holy crap! All this over how big the inside of a case is? If there are case capacity differences an experienced, careful, common sense reloader will not have any problems. Heck, I know what chamber my rifle has, I know how to size my brass, and I know how to load for my rifle. I never load to max. so any difference in case capacity is moot...

Buddy.. Just load how you want to load, forget the bs. I recommend to start at least 10 percent below the book max and work your way up to a comfortable, accurate and effective level.. save that recipe and then you can tweak the lengths and other stuff... Just keep it simple because it is just that!

[71Eagle]

This certainly got a lot deeper than I intended. My 25grs of IMR 4895 is not a max load and I'm pretty sure I knew the answer to my question to begin with, but I do thank everyone for all the replies and opinions.
I'm shooting it out of a Remington VLS and really good accuracy out of it.

Thanks to all.

[mohr308]

Just remember after you have worked up a load that works, once you change a component it is very likely your grouping and so on will also change. For example, if you change to different primers, change bullets, powder type, maybe even brass, it will all have an effect.