For the AR guys Which of these is best?

dvdcrr · February 11, 2019, 11:42 PM

OK if you care to play along, I am curious which of these two carbines is high quality, better built, and more accurate:
This one
https://www.windhamweaponry.com/fire...ber-rifle/mpc/

Or this one

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/795274199

And among 20"
This one:

https://www.windhamweaponry.com/fire...20-govt-rifle/

Or this one

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/col...rem-556nato-20

2ndtimer · February 12, 2019, 12:01 AM

For the 16":
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...516446600.html
For the 20":
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...-a2-rifle.html

MagnumWill · February 12, 2019, 07:48 AM

900-1000 for a Bushmaster (Windham)?? They're out of their minds.

I'd recommend the Palmetto as well.

But to play the game, I would go with the FN or the Colt.

kymasabe · February 12, 2019, 08:03 AM

I'm with 2ndtimer on this one. I'd take the PSA over the overpriced Windham. I (sort of) like FN products but I hate the stock, handguard, and grip on the FN, I'd have to immediately replace them. For the same money as the FN, I'd be looking at a Sig M400 or a Springfield Saint instead.

Americanpatriot · February 12, 2019, 08:53 AM

Out of what you listed I would say Colt. I also like the above recommendation for SigM400

Bartholomew Roberts · February 12, 2019, 08:53 AM

I’ve got a few Bushmasters back when they were owned by the same crew that runs Windham Weaponry (i.e. everyone who didn’t want to relocate after Remington bought out Bushmaster and moved the factory.) They’ve been good rifles; but not $900-1000 in today’s market good. I’m also not a fan of 1:9 twist barrels since my 1:9 Bushmaster did not shoot the heavier match loads well despite Bushmaster’s reassurances that 1:9 was plenty stable (my friend’s 1:9 Armalite would throw the same 75gr ammo like a laser - go figure).

Given your list, I’d pick Colt or FN in a heartbeat. I certainly think you can find an LE6920 cheaper than $900-1000. I’ve got some PSA stuff as well and have helped assemble more than a few PSA kits. You can get some screaming good qualit at dirt cheap prices; but if they have kits waiting on parts to ship, PSA sure isn’t afraid to take whatever parts you can sell them cheap in order to get stuff out the door.

Having said that, the stuff PSA puts out on its worst day is probably typical of what the average non-Colt, non-boutique rifles looked like for most of the AWB and pre-AWB period. This is a golden age for ARs.

Americanpatriot · February 12, 2019, 09:33 AM

If it was me and the rifle was more than a range gun, my preference is Milspec or exceeding Milspec. Some will scoff at it as being unecessary or meaningless. I like to use it as a minimum base standard when considering certain gear.

GarandTd · February 12, 2019, 10:09 AM

I just built that 16" PSA minus the ept trigger for $400. The main advantage to rifles you listed besides branding, is the chrome lined barrels, but I'm new to this AR stuff, so I could be overlooking some other details. I don't have an optic yet to really see what accuracy my PSA is capable of. With Magpul MBUS rear and A2 front sight post, I'm getting a 4-5" group at 100yds and 2-3" @ 50 with American Eagle 55gr 5.56 ammo.

Fishbed77 · February 12, 2019, 11:45 AM

The Colt is the best rifles of those listed.

kymasabe · February 12, 2019, 02:08 PM

GarandTD mentioned chrome lined barrels. Personally, I'd rather have nitride/melonite/qpq. I'm one of those nuts that believe chrome lining makes the barrel less accurate.

Americanpatriot · February 12, 2019, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kymasabe

GarandTD mentioned chrome lined barrels. Personally, I'd rather have nitride/melonite/qpq. I'm one of those nuts that believe chrome lining makes the barrel less accurate.

It can be less accurate if not done properly. I'm one of those that prefer the chrome lined

zukiphile · February 12, 2019, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymasabe

Personally, I'd rather have nitride/melonite/qpq. I'm one of those nuts that believe chrome lining makes the barrel less accurate.

From what I read, a very good chrome lined barrel will be very good, and a crumby stainless or melonite processed barrel will still be crumby. Criterion barrels are well regarded, but also expensive.

The nitriding process is interesting because of the potential for an economically produced accurate and durable barrel. I am not a high volume shooter, so if chrome lining has benefits exclusive to fully automatic fire, I won't see them.

Nitriding is also interesting for rimfire barrels that often suffer wear and damage for different reasons. If you are shooting soot and sand down your barrel, a harder surface may have real benefits. Most barrel makers still make their 22lr product with conventional bluing, but Lothar Walther offers a surface hardening that is like the nitriding process.

I'd like to see another endurance/wear test like the Lucky Gunner one a few years ago, but will steel jacketed ammunition in a chrome lined and nitrided barrel.

sevt_chevelle · February 12, 2019, 05:39 PM

Colt 6920. FN builds rifles for the military but can't build civilian rifles to the same specs, whereas Colt can.

dvdcrr · February 14, 2019, 08:08 PM

Thats what I was thinking but it would be cool to have an FN

dvdcrr · February 19, 2019, 11:27 AM

What do you think about the 20" rifles vs. the 16.1" Colt? The 6920 looks to be thoroughly spec'd but on the 20" where are they getting their A2 stock kits? I dont know...
AR also just did an article about the FN m16 collector rifle which looks nice

imashooter · February 19, 2019, 11:54 AM

Of the 20" listed, I only have the Windham. Excellent everything less the trigger as most (my Colts were the worst) mass-produced ARs seem to be. I removed the CH and replaced with a 4-12 scope. Replaced the trigger. This is a very good deal for the WW. Accuracy is superb.
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperst...d-20-in-barrel

riffraff · February 20, 2019, 09:43 AM

(not expert advice take for what it's worth but you asked..)

I couldn't imagine being real happy w/ a 20 inch, especially in this style where you are kinda locked into iron sights and have a full non adjustable stock - it's "huge" compared to a 16 inch w/ an adjustable stock...

Then basically any advantage in the muzzle velocity is going to be completely lost due to trying to steady the heavier/longer rifle for me. If I'm going to shoulder it I want a 16 inch. A 20 inch I'm going to want to rest on something most of the time.

Detachable carry handles also kinda suck, unless you wish to actually detach them. Better off w/ an integral carry handle (more clearance for your hand to actually carry it

and of course it's not potentially gonna shift or require tightening either)..

So in short, if I was going to go w/ this style rifle I'd be looking for an integral carry handle, 16 inch, and adjustable stock. If I wanted a 20 inch at a minimum I'd be looking for something w/ a rail atop the gas block (for optional sight mounting) and a flat top (ie no carry handle) - or a free float guard, since for me 20 inch = scoped rifle for resting most of the time.

imashooter · February 20, 2019, 06:36 PM

1. Hands easily fit the detachable carry handle.
2. The WW weighs in at a very heavy 7.7lbs

3. My 8 year old grandson prefers shooting it from a standing position vs a bench. He easily nails the x at 50 meters. Which reminds me, that's with a 17.2oz scope and 7oz. mount.
4. A rail-mounted carry handle is no more susceptible to becoming loose as is a similarly mounted optic.

Summary: The 20" WW government model, as shipped, is a very easy and pleasant weapon to shoot. Well balanced, well made, more than light enough (imo), deadly accurate.

riffraff · February 21, 2019, 12:38 AM

Ima - I do not consider myself to have big hands but I can't actually grip a detachable handle because there is not enough clearance to curl my fingers - I only can slip just the tips of my fingers in there with my hand basically open - and this is a common complaint about detachable carry handles. There's a lot more space in there when they are part of the upper receiver.

NWPilgrim · February 21, 2019, 03:07 AM

Colt by a mile. The 6920 can be had for $800 and some times even $700. This is a buyers market right now, it is ridiculous to by lesser brands when top brands are selling so cheap.

Years ago when demand was so high you might make a case for a $800 PSA versus a $1,500 Colt. Now though, the differential is so small it is not worth trying to save a few bucks compared to the quality.

Shop around and find a good price on a Colt and be happy, you will never regret it. BTW, I’ve had Olympic (back in the 80s), PSA, DPMS, Stag. I now have BCM, LMT, and FN. we are so fortunate to be able to buy top quality rifles at such low prices right now.

P-990 · February 21, 2019, 09:16 AM

What's your purpose for the rifle? That will driving which to pick as much as anything else.

Personally, I like the Colts. I have a 6920 and a really want an AR-15A4 at some point. Most stock, single-stage mil-spec triggers are rough. It's what they are. I'm not a trigger snob so I find I can get along with them just fine unless it's for true target shooting.

Regarding the 20" vs 16" guns: with a proper Government profile barrel, the 20" guns aren't actually heavy. Avoid at all costs anything in a heavy barrel or H-BAR that is thicker under the hand guards. And the .223 really thrives on velocity, anything you can do to keep the bullet speed up is a Good Thing.

Now the A2 length buttstock the Marines foisted off on everyone makes the AR a better target rifle, but is a bit too long for most other uses. Given my way, the fixed length buttstocks would be the original A1 length, which is about 3/8" shorter. This is handier and easier for most people to use.

Chrome-lining may or may not affect accuracy, depending on whose barrels you're using. Colt actually has a pretty decent reputation for the accuracy of their chrome-lined barrels. I knew many Highpower shooters who would use chrome-lined barrels to start on rattle battle and loaner guns. (They'd replace them later with match barrels as they wore out.)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Bartholomew Roberts · February 21, 2019, 06:53 PM

$800 for a PSA? Does PSA even make anything over $500?

zukiphile · February 21, 2019, 08:44 PM

In May 2013, I paid $529.99 for a CHF 20 inch upper with a Midwest Industries 15 inch handguard, no BCG no CH.

True story.

GarandTd · February 21, 2019, 08:46 PM

Right now PSA has the 20" CHF premium rifle kit for $549 on one of their daily deals

MarkGlazer · February 21, 2019, 09:03 PM

I purchased the "SRC" for my wife (birthday present - her request) during the crazy Obama years. Love the gun, flawless performance, never have had any issues with it. Just like anything else, treat it well and it performs.

P-990 does pose the right question. I don't hunt, but could if I wanted. Let's just call it a deterrent.

Best to you.

February 11, 2019, 11:42 PM	#1
dvdcrr Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2010 Posts: 665	For the AR guys Which of these is best? OK if you care to play along, I am curious which of these two carbines is high quality, better built, and more accurate: This one https://www.windhamweaponry.com/fire...ber-rifle/mpc/ Or this one https://www.gunbroker.com/item/795274199 And among 20" This one: https://www.windhamweaponry.com/fire...20-govt-rifle/ Or this one https://www.colt.com/detail-page/col...rem-556nato-20 __________________ "All warfare is based on deception. Hence when we are able to attack we must seem unable....when using our forces we must appear inactive. When we are near we must make the enemy believe we are far away."Sun Tzu The Art of War.

February 12, 2019, 12:01 AM	#2
2ndtimer Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Kennewick, WA Posts: 293	For the 16": https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...516446600.html For the 20": https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...-a2-rifle.html __________________ NRA Endowment Member

February 12, 2019, 07:48 AM	#3
MagnumWill Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Location: Central Colorado Posts: 1,001	900-1000 for a Bushmaster (Windham)?? They're out of their minds. I'd recommend the Palmetto as well. But to play the game, I would go with the FN or the Colt. __________________ Those who hammer their swords into plow shares will plow for those who didn't...

February 12, 2019, 08:03 AM	#4
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,747	I'm with 2ndtimer on this one. I'd take the PSA over the overpriced Windham. I (sort of) like FN products but I hate the stock, handguard, and grip on the FN, I'd have to immediately replace them. For the same money as the FN, I'd be looking at a Sig M400 or a Springfield Saint instead. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

February 12, 2019, 10:09 AM	#8
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	I just built that 16" PSA minus the ept trigger for $400. The main advantage to rifles you listed besides branding, is the chrome lined barrels, but I'm new to this AR stuff, so I could be overlooking some other details. I don't have an optic yet to really see what accuracy my PSA is capable of. With Magpul MBUS rear and A2 front sight post, I'm getting a 4-5" group at 100yds and 2-3" @ 50 with American Eagle 55gr 5.56 ammo. __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

February 12, 2019, 08:53 AM	#5
Americanpatriot Member Join Date: June 11, 2017 Posts: 34	Out of what you listed I would say Colt. I also like the above recommendation for SigM400

February 12, 2019, 08:53 AM	#6
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	I’ve got a few Bushmasters back when they were owned by the same crew that runs Windham Weaponry (i.e. everyone who didn’t want to relocate after Remington bought out Bushmaster and moved the factory.) They’ve been good rifles; but not $900-1000 in today’s market good. I’m also not a fan of 1:9 twist barrels since my 1:9 Bushmaster did not shoot the heavier match loads well despite Bushmaster’s reassurances that 1:9 was plenty stable (my friend’s 1:9 Armalite would throw the same 75gr ammo like a laser - go figure). Given your list, I’d pick Colt or FN in a heartbeat. I certainly think you can find an LE6920 cheaper than $900-1000. I’ve got some PSA stuff as well and have helped assemble more than a few PSA kits. You can get some screaming good qualit at dirt cheap prices; but if they have kits waiting on parts to ship, PSA sure isn’t afraid to take whatever parts you can sell them cheap in order to get stuff out the door. Having said that, the stuff PSA puts out on its worst day is probably typical of what the average non-Colt, non-boutique rifles looked like for most of the AWB and pre-AWB period. This is a golden age for ARs.

February 12, 2019, 09:33 AM	#7
Americanpatriot Member Join Date: June 11, 2017 Posts: 34	If it was me and the rifle was more than a range gun, my preference is Milspec or exceeding Milspec. Some will scoff at it as being unecessary or meaningless. I like to use it as a minimum base standard when considering certain gear.

February 12, 2019, 11:45 AM	#9
Fishbed77 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 4,862	The Colt is the best rifles of those listed.

February 12, 2019, 02:08 PM	#10
kymasabe Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2005 Location: SW Florida Posts: 2,747	GarandTD mentioned chrome lined barrels. Personally, I'd rather have nitride/melonite/qpq. I'm one of those nuts that believe chrome lining makes the barrel less accurate. __________________ God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.

February 12, 2019, 05:39 PM	#13
sevt_chevelle Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Posts: 324	Colt 6920. FN builds rifles for the military but can't build civilian rifles to the same specs, whereas Colt can.

February 14, 2019, 08:08 PM	#14
dvdcrr Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2010 Posts: 665	Thats what I was thinking but it would be cool to have an FN __________________ "All warfare is based on deception. Hence when we are able to attack we must seem unable....when using our forces we must appear inactive. When we are near we must make the enemy believe we are far away."Sun Tzu The Art of War.

February 19, 2019, 11:27 AM	#15
dvdcrr Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2010 Posts: 665	What do you think about the 20" rifles vs. the 16.1" Colt? The 6920 looks to be thoroughly spec'd but on the 20" where are they getting their A2 stock kits? I dont know... AR also just did an article about the FN m16 collector rifle which looks nice __________________ "All warfare is based on deception. Hence when we are able to attack we must seem unable....when using our forces we must appear inactive. When we are near we must make the enemy believe we are far away."Sun Tzu The Art of War.

February 19, 2019, 11:54 AM	#16
imashooter Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 395	Of the 20" listed, I only have the Windham. Excellent everything less the trigger as most (my Colts were the worst) mass-produced ARs seem to be. I removed the CH and replaced with a 4-12 scope. Replaced the trigger. This is a very good deal for the WW. Accuracy is superb. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperst...d-20-in-barrel

February 20, 2019, 09:43 AM	#17
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	(not expert advice take for what it's worth but you asked..) I couldn't imagine being real happy w/ a 20 inch, especially in this style where you are kinda locked into iron sights and have a full non adjustable stock - it's "huge" compared to a 16 inch w/ an adjustable stock... Then basically any advantage in the muzzle velocity is going to be completely lost due to trying to steady the heavier/longer rifle for me. If I'm going to shoulder it I want a 16 inch. A 20 inch I'm going to want to rest on something most of the time. Detachable carry handles also kinda suck, unless you wish to actually detach them. Better off w/ an integral carry handle (more clearance for your hand to actually carry it and of course it's not potentially gonna shift or require tightening either).. So in short, if I was going to go w/ this style rifle I'd be looking for an integral carry handle, 16 inch, and adjustable stock. If I wanted a 20 inch at a minimum I'd be looking for something w/ a rail atop the gas block (for optional sight mounting) and a flat top (ie no carry handle) - or a free float guard, since for me 20 inch = scoped rifle for resting most of the time.

February 20, 2019, 06:36 PM	#18
imashooter Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 395	1. Hands easily fit the detachable carry handle. 2. The WW weighs in at a very heavy 7.7lbs 3. My 8 year old grandson prefers shooting it from a standing position vs a bench. He easily nails the x at 50 meters. Which reminds me, that's with a 17.2oz scope and 7oz. mount. 4. A rail-mounted carry handle is no more susceptible to becoming loose as is a similarly mounted optic. Summary: The 20" WW government model, as shipped, is a very easy and pleasant weapon to shoot. Well balanced, well made, more than light enough (imo), deadly accurate.

February 21, 2019, 12:38 AM	#19
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	Ima - I do not consider myself to have big hands but I can't actually grip a detachable handle because there is not enough clearance to curl my fingers - I only can slip just the tips of my fingers in there with my hand basically open - and this is a common complaint about detachable carry handles. There's a lot more space in there when they are part of the upper receiver.

February 21, 2019, 03:07 AM	#20
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Colt by a mile. The 6920 can be had for $800 and some times even $700. This is a buyers market right now, it is ridiculous to by lesser brands when top brands are selling so cheap. Years ago when demand was so high you might make a case for a $800 PSA versus a $1,500 Colt. Now though, the differential is so small it is not worth trying to save a few bucks compared to the quality. Shop around and find a good price on a Colt and be happy, you will never regret it. BTW, I’ve had Olympic (back in the 80s), PSA, DPMS, Stag. I now have BCM, LMT, and FN. we are so fortunate to be able to buy top quality rifles at such low prices right now.

February 21, 2019, 09:16 AM	#21
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,316	What's your purpose for the rifle? That will driving which to pick as much as anything else. Personally, I like the Colts. I have a 6920 and a really want an AR-15A4 at some point. Most stock, single-stage mil-spec triggers are rough. It's what they are. I'm not a trigger snob so I find I can get along with them just fine unless it's for true target shooting. Regarding the 20" vs 16" guns: with a proper Government profile barrel, the 20" guns aren't actually heavy. Avoid at all costs anything in a heavy barrel or H-BAR that is thicker under the hand guards. And the .223 really thrives on velocity, anything you can do to keep the bullet speed up is a Good Thing. Now the A2 length buttstock the Marines foisted off on everyone makes the AR a better target rifle, but is a bit too long for most other uses. Given my way, the fixed length buttstocks would be the original A1 length, which is about 3/8" shorter. This is handier and easier for most people to use. Chrome-lining may or may not affect accuracy, depending on whose barrels you're using. Colt actually has a pretty decent reputation for the accuracy of their chrome-lined barrels. I knew many Highpower shooters who would use chrome-lined barrels to start on rattle battle and loaner guns. (They'd replace them later with match barrels as they wore out.) Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

February 21, 2019, 06:53 PM	#22
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	$800 for a PSA? Does PSA even make anything over $500?

February 21, 2019, 08:44 PM	#23
zukiphile Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2005 Posts: 4,457	In May 2013, I paid $529.99 for a CHF 20 inch upper with a Midwest Industries 15 inch handguard, no BCG no CH. True story. __________________ http://www.npboards.com/index.php

February 21, 2019, 08:46 PM	#24
GarandTd Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2016 Location: Rural PA Posts: 1,639	Right now PSA has the 20" CHF premium rifle kit for $549 on one of their daily deals __________________ 22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp

February 21, 2019, 09:03 PM	#25
MarkGlazer Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2013 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 329	I purchased the "SRC" for my wife (birthday present - her request) during the crazy Obama years. Love the gun, flawless performance, never have had any issues with it. Just like anything else, treat it well and it performs. P-990 does pose the right question. I don't hunt, but could if I wanted. Let's just call it a deterrent. Best to you. __________________ non ministrari sed ministrare