Tactic in a Mass Shooting Situation

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks for that Pax!

It is nice counterpoint to some of the posts. A mutual friend of ours (trainer in TX) tried the shot at 100 yards with one hand after the incident. Hit it the first time on a steel target. He;s been teaching that in one of his tactical classes in TX and finds many folks can make the hit.

So the contingencies are if you can't flee - stay there under fire and don't try to make a shot. Or try to make a shot. Which door do you choose?

[Brit]

From prone, with a Glock 17, on the Police Range at Palm Bay, a few years back, I hit a rifle gong, 3 for three. Dimensions were approx. 18"X18"

So given the distances we have a good idea we can do what with, if we have done it before. The basic thought would be that the individual with the rifle, does not know he is targeted, till he is hit, or missed.

None of these massacres/killings, have been one person with a rifle, shooting at one person with a pistol. And both aware of the other.

So in reality, the only sure fact, none of these venues, had any armed resistance of any nature. And now we are finally being told by different Sherriff's, go armed!

The only close situation, and the two individual's who engaged the would be suicide killers, were Police on Pay Duty's (Canadian term) basically Security.

Not sure which Duty Pistols were used Glocks? But they were both killed. The bad Guys that is.

[manta49]

You mean you need to be a psychiatrist to know how someone will react, or do you mean if an individual is well trained it is a good predictor to how that individual will react?

I mean if an individual is well trained it is a good predictor to how that individual will react. And i mean serious training, but there is still no guarantees.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As I said before, training programs for military and police have increased performance in the real world.

Why does the gun internet world deny that?

[raimius]

Double Naught Spy, thank you for the correction. Feet and yards...I had best be careful that I don't launch a probe into the backside of mars!

Pax, well said.
I certainly agree that good training is an asset. Those trained are more likely to perform well under pressure. That said, I hate it when people seem to think that one must have trained in SOCOM to defend themselves from more than a few feet away. People with relatively minimal training can and do save themselves with some regularity. Are their odds better if they have trained well? YES. Is it futile for the average civilian to try to save themself? No.

[Ton]

Something to bear heavily in mind when considering situations like this.

I've been working as a patrol officer in a city of about half a million for about a year now. Depending on where you are at in a situation like this, the nearest LEO could be anywhere from 15 seconds to 30 minutes away. In the former case, it is very likely that the only information they are going to have arriving on scene is that somebody with a gun is shooting people. They will probably have no description of the suspect or the weapon, no specific location, etc. They are going to be coming toward the sound of violence and looking for somebody with a gun. Officers today are VERY wary of a situation like this, and there will probably be very little, if any, hesitation on the part of the officer upon locating a subject with a gun. The time you spend with a gun in your hand in such a situation is going to majorly increase your risk of being shot in a case of mistaken identity, not only by police but also by your fellow private citizen.

In the event that you do shoot somebody in the defense of yourself or others, make every effort to holster your weapon as soon as you are able to assess the scene to make sure it is safe to do so. Realize that because of the extremely confusing nature of the circumstance, there is a good chance you will be put at gunpoint, disarmed, and handcuffed when officers arrive and you announce you have a weapon. This should be temporary.

A little bit of extra mental preparedness will go a long way. Unless you are an extremely bubbly crowd loving people person, try to limit the high traffic areas and large events you attend to only ones you truly care about. When you do find yourself in those situations, you may want to ask yourself some of the following questions:

Are there any armed guards or police officers near by? Large venues will often have armed security or police working, in which case the best course of action is probably going to beat feet in any circumstance.

How soon might they arrive if called to an emergency? Factors such as whether they will be city, county, or state police, time of day, traffic conditions, etc can have a major effect.

What are the chances that there are additional CCW holders in the area? Probably going to be much higher at the Cabela's in Arizona than the Clinton rally in Conneticut.

If (pick somebody nearby) were to draw a gun/knife from their waistband and begin shooting/stabbing people, what would I do? You'll find that a firearm is only going to be applicable in limited circumstances.

Where are the nearest exits, and which will afford me the best chance of escape?

Where are the nearest sources of cover or concealment? Desks, chairs, walls, couches in offices and schools probably aren't going to stop too many bullets although they may provide functional concealment. On the other hand, concrete barriers common in parks and other outdoor areas will probably provide functional cover from gunfire.

Also bear in mind that your emergency plan will probably need to be dramatically changed depending on whether or not you have loved ones with you, and how many.

Just food for thought. I believe the risk of even being involved in a situation like this is lower for us sheepdogs than it is for the standard sheep due to the fact that we are much more naturally cautious.

[Brit]

Nice thoughtful post Ton.

In the event that you do shoot somebody in the defense of yourself or others, make every effort to holster your weapon as soon as you are able to assess the scene to make sure it is safe to do so.

Good advice.

If you click on to a Cop show, all kinds of the responding Officers, draw their duty weapons as soon as they leave the vehicle?

Is this encouraged at Patrol Level?

[Ton]

Brit,

It depends on the call, and what information is available to the officer when he/she arrives on scene. When arriving first on scene to a call involving a subject threatening with a gun or a shooting, the majority of the uniformed officers in my jurisdiction are going to have their weapons drawn the second they can get their vehicle in park.

Our policy has been changed in light of recent events allowing a single officer to make a "lone wolf" entry instead of waiting for backup officers when he deems it is a mass casualty situation and any delay could increase the loss of life. This allows us a much quicker response time, but a quicker response time can come less information. If you find yourself in any sort of drawn out gun fight with a shooter, the officer may have no way to differentiate between the good guy and the bad guy going on scene.

[stagpanther]

Similar to the points I tried to make earlier in my posts. When I've been at the scene of a shooting and was able to retreat to a secure spot to call in to the police--a careful description (you'd be surprised how hard that is to give when the adrenaline is flowing) of the perps--now many--what they looked like and what they were wearing, as well as their relative position in terms of cross streets, and any direction they or their vehicles were headed vastly increases the speed of response and the likelihood of apprehending/subduing the perps.

[Double Naught Spy]

What are the chances that there are additional CCW holders in the area? Probably going to be much higher at the Cabela's in Arizona than the Clinton rally in Conneticut.

We have seen repeatedly where there are very few of these usually in the area, even when the area is a fully public venue. The reality is that very few people actually carry daily.

[skizzums]

I apologize if this has been discussed already, but interesting to hear the honesty of the man who didn't shoot when he might have should have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58p1X-yOWy8

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Some people are sheepdogs...and some ain't. Neither one is "wrong". Personally, I like the "keep a longgun in the car to retrieve, go back and stop the killing" idea, and would certainly do so - but that's just me.

[stagpanther]

The guy didn't say he had buck fever and couldn't take the shot--he said he felt he didn't have a clear shot in terms of other people back-stopping the target. A valid concern considering a miss and it's consequences can get you into trouble.

[FireForged]

The whole sheepdog concept was at one time a thoughtful metaphor, I am not sure what it has morphed into now a days but certainly isnt how I classify people. I am just a guy who is very motivated to protect me and mine and not so willing to extend that protection to others without careful consideration. It has nothing to do with having the heart of a warrior, sheepdog or anything else, its about reality and the ownership of consequences. I am a Dad first and have no inclination to be a hero. If some armed lunatic comes at me, I will defend myself and if he runs around the corner, I wont chase him.

[Ton]

The sheep/sheepdog may be an inappropriate metaphor as it relates to this. I guess a more accurate statement would be that those who find themselves doing things like reading this thread are probably less likely to find themselves in a bad a situation than those who walk through life telling themselves "Things like that don't happen here" or "Something like that would never happen to me".

[Sgt127]

My view is different. I've been a Police Officer for over 30 years. I have run towards screams and gunshots my whole career. That's not going to change for me. I will shoot him and he will stop killing people. I have to start with that attitude and keep that thought. I admit to having the luxury of yelling I'm a police officer and then welding myself to the first uniform that shows up. That's a realistic concern.

Yes, if I catch one of the first rounds, I'm out of the fight. I got that. But watch this video from Paris.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...un-jammed.html

People ran. People hid. But, there's no question anyone proficient with a handgun could have dropped him. There are pauses in the action. He reloads, he's trying to acquire another target. His gun jams. He turns his back. Whatever.

If all I can do is keep him pinned down until help gets there, better than nothing. If he offs himself when he meets resistance, good.

That's the way I see it. If I had the chance to stop him, and I didn't, it would be on me for the rest of my life.

That's certainly not for everyone, I understand that. But realize, your odds are better than you might think. He's trying to shoot dozens of moving targets. You have one, maybe two. And, you have the element of surprise back on your side. He's not expecting a violent counterattack.

If that's your mindset, commit to always carrying enough gun to solve a problem you might encounter. To have the will and the opportunity, but not the means, is crushing.

Look up the Trolly Square shooting in Utah. An off duty LEO with a single stack pistol (and no reload) likely slowed the body count considerably. His wife hunkered and hid with others, was on the phone giving updates. Perfectly executed by all.

[Jeff22]

My first priority would be to get any family members to a point of safety.

Depending upon the circumstances, and depending upon how I was armed, it's possible I might try to find a position of hard cover and engage the shooter(s).

If the incident happened in a place where some group of people were able to find refuge someplace (an office, inside a store at the mall) it's more likely that I might post up and attempt to protect them.

Of course it's hard to conceive of all possible circumstances, but it does deserve prior consideration.

As Sgt127 stated: "If I had the chance to stop him, and I didn't, it would be on me for the rest of my life."

[stagpanther]

I think for the average person who is not military or police to definitively say "I would do this..or that" in a situation like a goldfish bowl massacre would be very hard to do. I think the stress and dynamics of live fire being directed at you with malice makes it very hard to predict what you might actually do--unless you actively train for specifically that kind of scenario.

[chimo]

I am a Marine...I ride to the sound of the guns. If I am not armed I am not going to go running to my vehicle to get a firearm or drive away, nor am I going to hide and hope the goblins don't find me or run away leaving others to their own devices. I am going to do what I can, with what I have available to me...whether it be a firearm or a weapon of opportunity or just my gorgeous old bod as a diversion...to save as many lives as I can and/or end the threat until the cavalry arrives, at which time I can stand down and make sure I am not mistaken for a goblin. If I have family with me, my first duty is to get them to safety...but if the cavalry has not shown after that task is done, I must go back in and do what I can do. If a firearm is available for me to use...all the better, but nobody gets left behind.

What you all want to do is up to you, it's not some kind of macho pee-pee size contest. I'm going to do what I am going to do because that is how I am wired and how I am trained. YMMV.

[Hiker 1]

Jeanne Assam took cover. From her position of cover, she "took him down."
In other words, she did in fact hide. She set up a tactical ambush so that she could stop the attacker with the least amount of risk to herself.

Semantics. Taking cover is not hiding but whatever.
Her ambush did not work as she expected. When she shot him, she was exposed and they were firing AT each other at a very close distance.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Otherwise I'm going to evacuate. Is that an appropriate or inappropriate mindset?


Every man needs to know his limitations.