Is the 5-shot .38 snub still enough?

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by glider

Hearing loss is better than life loss. A chiefs special really isn't any harder to shoot than a full size revolver all things being equal. Different handguns require a different level of concentration for various reasons, poor sights, stiff trigger etc. but the procedure is the same. I would say that a short barrel revolver with good sights and a good trigger is easier to shoot well than a full size revolver with bad sights and a heavy trigger pull. All my life I have heard that a short barrel is much harder to shoot well and I have never found that to be correct! As to whether 5 rounds is enough, well I suppose that depends on whether or not you can hit what you're shooting at. I think FBI stats are 3 feet ,3 minutes and 3 shots is the time and distance and shots fired in a self defense situation. I have no idea if that is correct. I am sure that 5 rounds isn't enough for a police officer but probably is for a civilian, entirely different deal.

As I responded to your earlier comment about the “Rule of 3s”, it’s not 3 minutes. 3 minutes is an eternity. It’s 3 seconds (and also 3 yd).

[fastbolt]

Man, that old "3/3/3" bromide has gotten more circulation (albeit with some numerical differences) than the academy drill that escaped into the wild on poor Dennis as a 'rule' ...

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

Man, that old "3/3/3" bromide has gotten more circulation (albeit with some numerical differences) than the academy drill that escaped into the wild on poor Dennis as a 'rule' ...

Agreed. As I said earlier, it’s a generalization, not a rule, and showing that generalization to be true based on what recorded data exists isn’t easy.

My main point in bringing it up a second time is for anyone that hasn’t been in a self defense situation, if you do some scenario based training you quickly realize that 3 minutes is a long time. Even if you don’t have the option to do that type of training, watch some bodycam footage. There are scenarios that go from some level of caution to someone dying in a matter of seconds.

[jstert]

one can customize a 38sp snubbie to one’s taste, without impairing reliability, by changing grips and ammo as desired. revolvers offer a totally intuitive manual of arms, which in moments of extreme stress, offers much reassurance. if only 38sp ammo were close to 9mm or even 380acp in price…

a 38sp snubbie is a prudent ccw to get a normal civilian out of immediate mortal trouble that comes to him, not necessarily an ideal sidearm to use if one chooses to, or must, seek out trouble.

[orionengnr]

No one ever exited a gunfight wishing he had had less ammunition.

While this may be true, it ignores what is perhaps even more relevant:

Many, many someones have elected to leave that larger, heavier, higher-capacity pistol at home, because it is harder to conceal or difficult to carry comfortably. Rule #1 of gunfighting is: Have a gun. If you cannot pass this elementary test, you lose before you begin. Period.

Someone even came up with a clever way to summarize it: The j-frame in your pocket is far more useful than the G-17 you left at home. Having owned and carried both, this resonates with me.

Bottom line: we all make decisions and compromises. What works for you may not for me.
I am pretty happy with my Kahr PM9 (with or without a spare mag), although I have carried j-frames in the past, and may opt to do so again in the future.

[JohnKSa]

Someone even came up with a clever way to summarize it: The j-frame in your pocket is far more useful than the G-17 you left at home. Having owned and carried both, this resonates with me.

Sort of a false dichotomy. One can now have around double the capacity of a typical j-frame in a package that is arguably easier to carry, conceal, and shoot. I'm not saying that a compact autopistol is the only reasonable choice, just that comparing a j-frame to a G17 probably isn't the comparison most folks are actually considering.

[EchoFalcon23]

I still carry a snubbie sometimes — it’s simple, reliable, and doesn’t require babysitting. But yeah, the capacity trade-off is real, especially now with compact 9mm options being so easy to shoot and conceal. I see the snub more as a “get out of trouble now” tool than something I’d want if things really go sideways.

That said, I always try to keep perspective by watching real-world footage or running scenario drills. Makes it clear how fast and chaotic things get — and how much “feel good” theory goes out the window under stress.

[TailGator]

doesn’t require babysitting

Maybe I'm being dense, but what does that mean?

[glider]

My pocket gun is a PM9 and I also have an OWB Milt sparks for it that is great, very concealable! I do have a soft spot for a snub nose revolver and don't feel under gunned with one. However, that PM9 is flatter and holds 2 more rounds than a chiefs special and is damn accurate. If you carry a spare magazine [I don't always] it is much faster to reload and it has a very nice trigger pull. I don't know of any pistol that can compete with a Kahr PM9 on all levels really. If your carry gun can be a bit larger then a compact 1911 is my first choice.

[bamaranger]

The response to this thread has been far greater than I expected and I have enjoyed reading all posts. One takeaway is that far more people rely on the snub 5/.38 than I would have thought. I'll add that a 6/.38 Detective Spec (the version with the shrouded ejector) has been on my want list for a long time, though not necessarily as a full time carry gun. I regret not buying one when they were more common (and affordable).

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

The response to this thread has been far greater than I expected and I have enjoyed reading all posts. One takeaway is that far more people rely on the snub 5/.38 than I would have thought. I'll add that a 6/.38 Detective Spec (the version with the shrouded ejector) has been on my want list for a long time, though not necessarily as a full time carry gun. I regret not buying one when they were more common (and affordable).

Yeah, they had their proponents in the revolver days. Colt had their advertisement of the D-frame snubs "Having 20% more ammunition" than the ubiquitous Chiefs Special ... but so did the 2" M10 snubs you could find.

I knew a number of guys who liked their D-frames, but that was likely the natural consequence of 4" blued Pythons having been an issued weapon before the K-frames (and later L-frames) had their turn as issued weapons. No shortage of folks who favored approved personally-owned N-frames, though.

Once it became a requirement to qualify with off-duty weapons, larger ones started appearing at range sessions. Well, it IS usually easier to handle and shoot larger guns, right?

For a while I saw some M60's serving as issued 'desk duty' weapons for Command staff, but more often than not qualifying was usually done with their 'uniform' large frame revolvers.

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

The response to this thread has been far greater than I expected and I have enjoyed reading all posts. One takeaway is that far more people rely on the snub 5/.38 than I would have thought. I'll add that a 6/.38 Detective Spec (the version with the shrouded ejector) has been on my want list for a long time, though not necessarily as a full time carry gun. I regret not buying one when they were more common (and affordable).

Oh yeah, I forgot ...

Even after all but an occasional small agency had long switched to self-shuckers (I saw a JC PD still with holstered wheelguns in the late 2000's), it was still possible to find cops who were shooting enthusiasts (usually instructors) carrying one or another of the little 5-shot snubs on their own time, as well as serving as Secondary Duty Weapons. Yes, they were usually the guys who had been around for the service revolver days.

The ability to have a small secondary duty or off-duty weapon with a heavier DA/DAO trigger has its advantages, too.

[bamaranger]

Yeah that would be me,......... "around from the revolver days"

Actually, the instructor cadre for my agency were issued /trained on auto-pistols first (SIG P228's) then did transition training for the rest of the agency.
But.....revolvers were still authorized for anybody within so many years of retirement. I can't say I encountered anybody, or even heard of anybody, (about 1300 sworn) who retained the revolver.

I do have a question though, .... how did desk personnel manage the belts for the M60 ??????

[Paul B.]

I usually carry an S&W M60 .38 Spl. as back up to a Colt Commander .45 ACP. I have one speed loader for the .38 and the Colt with an 8 round Wilson plus one up the spout for 9 rounds plus two 10 round Wilsons for reloads if necessary. All nice to have handy but I hope I never see the need.
Paul B.