+P vs. not: Which handguns

[TXAZ]

Interesting question came up in a discussion, with no definitive answer:
Which handguns, 9mm in particular, can handle +P ammunition? While I would expect the paperwork that comes with a new gun to list that, not everyone keeps / has that even from recent purchases.
Sig? Glock? HK?

Any definitive knowledge out there?

[GarandTd]

The SAR Arms K2P 9mm cautions against use of +P ammunition in the manual.

[Jim Watson]

What does "handle" mean in Hope, AR?

I have seen two mentions of +P in firearms instructions:
1. Don't.
2. It will increase the rate of wear.

A No 2 gun isn't going to blow up, and will it wear 10% faster (+P maximum is approximately 10% higher in pressure than standard maximum.) or more? I don't know.

[UncleEd]

Definition of +P: Using more than
one bullet.

[Onward Allusion]

The Armscor revolvers advises against +P. Also, back in the day, the Taurus 85, too.

One or two mags or a cylinder or two of +P ain't going to blow up any tier 1 or 2 gun made in the last 10 years. Also, most of us don't shoot 30,000 rounds of +P through a single gun.

[GarandTd]

I stand corrected. The K2P manual says "do not" right on the cover.

[Mosin44az]

I have read that Ruger discourages extended plus P use in their new Security 9. They suggest the American models for such.

[T. O'Heir]

There very likely is no such list. Until relatively recently, there was no SAAMI(or likely CIP either) standard as to exactly what pressure is '+P'. Current SAAMI standard is an average of 38,500 PSI.
However, that applies to American made firearms only. CIP is European and is slightly different. So SIG, Glock and HK will comply with CIP. S&W and Colt with SAAMI.

[seeker_two]

Any pistol that sees service in the military or police forces in the last 50 years should be safe with +P ammo, especially in 9mm. NATO 124gr 9mm ammo is equivalent to +P ammo manufactured in the USA.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[weblance]

The Ruger American pistol states that it is "Performance tested for sustained +P ammunition use."

I have never seen another claim like that with any pistol.

[rock185]

I don't know of an all encompassing definitive list. I think you'd probably have to look at each manufacturer's owners manual. Many are available online. FWIW, and not definitive by any means, I can say that I have used quite a bit of 9MM +P, NATO, +P+ and equivalent reloads over the years. None of my guns evidenced any any signs of unusual wear, and nothing has bent, cracked, deformed or broken.


Though owners manuals may have verbiage about increased wear with regular use of +P, I don't think I have any handguns whose manufacturers outright prohibit use of +P. My HK USP 9MM Expert manual, and the Glock info packet provided to the police dept. where I spent some years, even indicated 9MM +P+ could be used in those pistols. The early S&W 640 revolvers were also listed as "tested for +P+". So obviously regular +P should not be an issue in those guns. I would not be concerned in using +p in any of the recent production pistols or revolvers I own by reputable manufacturers. I would have a concern if a manufacturer indicated that +p was not to be used at all. Such an admonition would cause me to wonder about the structural integrity and overall quality of that pistol.......ymmv

[Cosmodragoon]

I have seen two mentions of +P in firearms instructions:
1. Don't.
2. It will increase the rate of wear.

I've seen both in various manuals. I've never seen the extra wear properly quantified for a given pistol. I generally air on the side of caution. I'm also less interested in pushing an old caliber to crazy limits just to chase something that I can easily get with another caliber. For instance, sending a 9mm projectile downrange at over 1300 fps is an unremarkable everyday task with .357 Sig.

[In The Ten Ring]

If the weapon isn't already a "magnum" or marked for +P I avoid the use of +P in it.

Yesterday I shot my S&W Model 66 .357 Magnum with mostly .38 Special +P. It handled those with little felt recoil. Standard .357 Magnum 158 grain rounds had much more recoil.

I don't think +P is really needed anymore, since better-performing bullets have come out that expand and penetrate well at standard velocities.

How much of a difference does "+P" make in the velocity department anyway?

*Full disclosure, my daily carry weapons are loaded with +P ammo. They do well in gel, have proven track records with police use, and I shoot them well. I may change to Hornady Critical Defense though, standard pressure.

[moosemike]

I keep +P's in my Taurus 85. It gets shot with standard .38's though.

[Screwball]

It is a case by case basis...

My 642-1 says .38 +P on the barrel, which I used for years. When I converted to 9mm, I opted for standard pressure 147 grain ammo as my carry load (XTP). Being an Airweight, I wanted to keep the wear down on the frame. And I don’t need to hear about the pressure differences between .38 and 9mm... works fine for myself and quite a few other people.

Now, if a manual says don’t use it, probably shouldn’t use it (see below). If it says it increases wear, change recoil springs a little earlier than usual.

I remember watching a CZ SHOT Show booth review a few years back with a guy from CZ Custom. Was going over the differences between models, and his carry gun came up. When ammo was mentioned, he said he carries +P+. Was asked if it was rated for that... “all guns are rated for a few +P+.”

I feel that gives a better understanding of what higher pressure ammo does to a firearm. Most will not blow up with the first +P you fire, but if it doesn’t handle it... cracks will form and eventually it will fail (whether just stop working or blow up). If you increase wear, recoil springs start to wear out sooner... and the slide batters the frame quicker.

If the manufacturer says not to, I’m not saying to just blow them off and start shooting the hottest loads you can find. A lot of times, manufacturers put that in there for legal reasons. But do some research on forums, and see what people use in the model you have/one mechanically similar. If they put 1,000s of rounds of +P through them, go in cautiously. Let someone else be the guinea pig.

[jmr40]

I'm not aware of any full size semi-auto 9mm that won't handle +p ammo. And I'd use it in any compact that I own.

The real downside is that a steady diet of +p will wear out the gun sooner. I don't really care if the gun wears out at 150,000 rounds instead of 300,000 rounds. Either way if I can afford the ammo to wear it out, I can afford to replace it.

[rock185]

What jmr40 said. FWIW, My coworkers and I were issued 9MM +P, for at least 16 years that I know of. I was one of the armorers for the dept. All firearms came through the armory once a year for inspection, maintenance, and repair if needed. I never saw any evidence of issues related to our use of +P ammo.

I've always suggested that if an owner is concerned about the higher pressure ammunition, then don't use it. There is plenty of standard pressure ammunition available, especially in 9MM.....ymmv

[moosemike]

I just never thought 9mm needed +P. 38 Special does.

[Dufus]

I always told myself if I needed more punch than what I was shootin', get something bigger.

I have up to 500 S&W, now I am waiting on the next step. I guess it would be a 600 S&W??

PS: I don't believe in any of the +'s.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Onward Allusion

The Armscor revolvers advises against +P.

Yep. When I called Armscor to ask about this, they said the M200 series revolvers will "handle" +P ammunition in limited quantities -- the gun won't blow up -- but the higher energy of +P accelerates wear to a degree that the factory won't warranty the gun if it's used extensively with +P.

[Brit]

Bullets have been advancing in the ability to incapacitate humans!
So increasing in velocity, to push the envelope, for what reason? Possibly damage your gun. Makes no sense.

Hit the spot, in a fight, more than once? Same as a fist fight.
(more permanent result though!)

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Brit

Bullets have been advancing in the ability to incapacitate humans!

So increasing in velocity, to push the envelope, for what reason? Possibly damage your gun. Makes no sense.



Hit the spot, in a fight, more than once? Same as a fist fight.

(more permanent result though!)

Really? Guess they really need to change that equation to work with your logic. Kinetic energy = 1/2 X mass X velocity^2. The multiplication of 1/2 directly effects both mass and velocity, but squaring is only done on velocity. That means velocity has more affect on energy.

Plug in the equation with both at 2, then do each with a value of 4. Both at 2, energy is 4. Mass at 4 equals energy at 8. Velocity at 4 equals energy at 16. If you are punching holes in paper, I agree... +P isn’t doing much. But if you are putting your life on the line, I’d go with more energy.

But if that is the case, why do people still look down at .380? Or how come 9mm has become supreme, and not .45 or .40 (.45 is still liked, a lot for it being subsonic out of the gate; great suppressor cartridge)? Sorry, but bullet technology is only part of getting optimal performance. Velocity of the same bullet exponentially increases energy. So, having two 124 grain bullets... one going 1150 FPS and another going 1220 FPS (muzzle velocity), you will get better performance out of the one moving 1220 FPS (rate differences of Speer Gold Dot, standard pressure over +P). Muzzle energy of the standard pressure is 364 ft/lbs, +P is 410 ft/lbs. That is about a 13% increase in energy.

[Dufus]

Wow. That kinetic energy wins the battle every time.

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by Dufus

Wow. That kinetic energy wins the battle every time.

Kinetic energy is only part of the story. If the bullet doesn't do its job, then the energy is wasted. A standard-pressure JHP that expands well is more useful than a +P round that doesn't expand. Energy is just what the bullet uses to do its job.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by Dufus

Wow. That kinetic energy wins the battle every time.

Not the point I was making... seeker_two gave a pretty good explanation.

To say a +P/velocity doesn’t matter is like saying there was no real need for S&W to design the .357 Magnum.