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Old September 18, 2006, 12:28 PM   #26
Samurai
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In response to BlackwaterOPS: The laws against intentionally and without provocation harming an animal are good laws, with good stiff penalties. It's absolutely abhorant to hurt an animal for no good reason.

But, the law does not apply if the dog bites you. That's why I recommend the "let the dog bite you on the arm" routine, rather than just grabbing it by the scruff of the neck and rolling it over. If it bites you, then you have the right to order it destroyed, if you want... And, you certainly have the right to keep it from harming you and to keep it from continuing to attack you.

In response to Trip20: Yes, in fact, this technique works quite well against attack dogs. If, after you jam the teeth and bear-hug the head, you curl your arms into your stomach, like a fetal position, and squeeze really hard with your whole body, it is possible to snap the dog's neck or separate the jaw. This is how you kill an attack dog that comes after you.

That said, everyone be really careful if you try this technique at home. You want to scare the dog, not permanently hurt it.
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Old September 18, 2006, 12:34 PM   #27
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=taser&hl=en

Taser and a pitbull
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Old September 18, 2006, 01:36 PM   #28
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Poor little pit bull! That's a hard lesson learned!

... and, yes. I'm quite sure the pit bull was FINE afterwards.
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Old September 18, 2006, 02:06 PM   #29
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This looks like a MAJOR over reaction. If the dog was REALLY dangerous, the apartment manager would have done something about it. If it bites someone, animal control IS going to destroy it, and, yes, I live in Kali, too.
Perhaps the reason the manager is letting the dog run around is two legged vermin are more of a problem then the dog, and, the dog is guarding the apartment building?

I would not shoot, or harm the dog in any way. Unless you have a permit, you will loose your right to bear arms for 3 years while on probation, for any number of firearms violations that pulling a gun in Kali incurs. The ONLY reason to use a gun in Kali is if you are SURE that your life,
or your families, is in imminent, near arms length, danger.

If this was REALLY a mad dog, he'd have bit you, or someone, already. Sounds to me like you've just got a good guard dog. Maybe you should be rewarding him for his vigilence.

S
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Old September 18, 2006, 02:18 PM   #30
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You should use the same judgement that you would use to draw down on a person. If you feel that your LIFE is in danger, then absolutely, I would draw and FIRE. Just drawing your weapon doesn't mean anything to a dog unless you plan to pistol whip him. But you must be able to justify shooting a dog just as you would a human. It may be crazy, but that's life these days. Most dogs can be discouraged by a good kick to the chest. Usually that only knocks the wind out of them, and they run away to make a full recovery. That would be my best advice, or else get some dog pepper spray. They make about 100 different dog repellents for joggers, they ought to have on at Sports Authority/REI/Sears.
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Old September 18, 2006, 02:53 PM   #31
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Keep in mind in Kali, without a permit, impossible to obtain in most counties, pulling a gun, with witnesses, is a crime, and, you'll loose your right to bear arms for at least three years.
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Old September 18, 2006, 04:17 PM   #32
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I still hold to the notion that a dog that growls at you is just being a dog. It's wrong to shoot and kill an animal that's not trying to kill you. (Unless the animal is REALLY tasty, or has big antlers, and dog's AREN'T and DON'T.) Just train the thing. Growl louder, or provide corporal punishment, or engage in psychological warfare, or just stay away from it. But, don't shoot a dog unless it's trying to REALLY hurt you.
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Old September 18, 2006, 04:42 PM   #33
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sounds like the dog needs some medicine, a 40 gr dose of lead poison would be my treatment to it <cb caps work great, very quiet >
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Old September 18, 2006, 05:44 PM   #34
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I still hold to the notion that a dog that growls at you is just being a dog. It's wrong to shoot and kill an animal that's not trying to kill you. (Unless the animal is REALLY tasty, or has big antlers, and dog's AREN'T and DON'T.) Just train the thing. Growl louder, or provide corporal punishment, or engage in psychological warfare, or just stay away from it. But, don't shoot a dog unless it's trying to REALLY hurt you.
Precisely. We're not talking an army of zombies here.

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sounds like the dog needs some medicine, a 40 gr dose of lead poison would be my treatment to it <cb caps work great, very quiet
I am soooooo sick of this kind of violent overreaction on this board. It's been said before: some people are just looking for a reason to shoot something. If it isn't a person, it's a barking dog. :barf:

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The old TFL dog thread; cousin to the 9mm vs 45acp thread.
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Old September 18, 2006, 05:51 PM   #35
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In my experience, simply sparking a stun gun will scare the hell out of dogs.
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Old September 18, 2006, 10:15 PM   #36
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Here are some laws you might want to consider and whether a PITA dog is worth the cost of:
1. Discharging a firearm in an occupied dwelling.
2. Discharging a firearm within city limits.
3. Malicious destruction of personal property.

Lots of places have laws against discharging firearms or destroying personal property, but those laws are superseded by your right to defend yourself if your safety or your life are threatened.

If you are deemed to have been justified to have fired at (person, dog, etc.) to save your own life, as I understand it that covers you for having fired a gun in a municipality that makes it illegal to discharge a firearm within city limits.


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Old September 18, 2006, 10:21 PM   #37
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Every time the shock stopped, that dog was up again and PERFECTLY FINE, and if it were inclined to be biting or mauling anyone, it was completely able to do so. That scene went on for quite a while. The dog was tasered over and over, but never actually approached by officers and restrained in any way. Not even sure where it ended up, by the end of the video. I'm surprised that none of those cops shot it. You can see, though, by the way it was running around, that the idea of shooting a dog that is running around crazed -- especially in a street scene like in the video, with dozens of people around -- could be VERY DIFFICULT.

I think that video was a good demonstration of how ineffective tasers are on dogs like pit bulls.


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Old September 18, 2006, 10:33 PM   #38
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ding, ding ding AZ,

You are correct. There were also too many people around to shoot it without endangering someone. I have no problem shooting a vicious dog, but it isn't always as easy as hitting a 25 yard target on the range. I've shot a couple through the years and they were all encountered in the woods and were straight on head shots. The last one was snarling, puffing his chest out and every step I took back he took one forward. He never barked only a low growl and all of his teath showing. I couldn't run and I wasn't going to wait and see if his bark was worse than his bite. As far as I know he was ferrel, no collar not very well taken care of etc. I've never taken joy in it, but I never felt remorse either.
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Old September 18, 2006, 10:51 PM   #39
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People and Dogs and Guns...

I've seen some people do some really vile and stupid things to 'dogs'.

I always have to watch my dobies, because I'm afraid more - much more - about what some nut is going to try to do to them...than what they would ever do to a person... My dobies are very well trained. Yet here's just an example, of what they've had to deal with from people :

1) A group of children tied up a cat and threw it over my fence into the backyard where my dobie often stays... My dobie didn't attack the cat, but did perk up and let me know about it. I had to retrieve the terrified cat(got a few scratches for it...and I called animal control. The little angels that did this abuse had almost strangled the cat...) Yet can you imagine what people would say if my dog had killed the cat? I called Animal Control , and the little angels got into the trouble they deserved!

2) While walking my young dobie in the park on a leash...and old man sitting on a park bench suddenly whirled his cane and struck my dog across its back and started yelling at it. My dog was of course scared and jumped back and looked up to me for a cue. I politely but firmly explained to the gentleman just how lucky he was that my dog was well trained...and how I was a gentleman. I also informed him that he didn't really know me or my dog - and that his behavior was extremely dangerous. What if my dog had defended himself and bitten him? He'd be whining about a 'vicious/mad doberman pinscher'... and I'd be needing a lawyer...

3) Once while walking my dog - again on a leash - a woman screamed at
her children to get in the house. She then ran and grabbed a broom, and then ran across the street(a long way) and started flailing it at my dog. My dog is on a leash, has never bothered anybody or chased anyone... He's just a big Doberman Pinscher. I pleaded with the woman to leave my dog alone...and explained that he's a nice dog and that there's no reason to hit him. However, if I was a dog I might indeed want to bite someone who is hitting me! People are so stupid in regard to 'dogs'.

4) I can't recommend a firearm to anyone in regard to dogs simply because I can't imagine what some stupid person is going to do with it ie. what they do with canes and brooms is bad enough. Can you imagine if they reached for a handgun?

5) However, there are always exceptional situations. I sometimes carry my revolver out on fishing trips...and there are definitly some ferral dogs(and other critters - some two legged) I wouldn't want to tangle with... but that's the exception - a very rare extreme exception!

6)Get to know the dog owner and the dog...before doing something really stupid. Sometimes I get a sick feeling in these sort of posts that someone is just looking for an excuse to shoot a dog or act out in some violent way toward one... I'm not saying that's the case here, but it is troublesome.
:barf:
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Old September 18, 2006, 11:03 PM   #40
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From the little I could see in that video, the pitbull did not appeared crazed at all, nor did it appear to be a threat to anything but the dog it attacked at the start. Maybe the OWNER of the pitbull should be shot, but, the dog wasn't threatening any human I could see, and, the officers were probably waiting for animal control, who can handle dogs.
I didn't see any person being bit, and, the woman screaming was probably screaming because her dog was being attacked.

S
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Old September 19, 2006, 12:05 AM   #41
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Well, I have been attacked by dogs, here in LA and in DC/VA also, because some [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]s train(read: ABUSE) them to be "fighting dogs" or whatever. They will attack anyone at anytime. I was also attacked by a dog at an impound lot, which bit me pretty good-(DOG LOVERS STOP READING HERE) Had to use my pocket folder to put it down. Not fun, ruined some good clothes and left a nice scar.

I don't blame the dogs for any of this, the owners are the criminals. Still, they usually cannot be rehibilitated after that kind of abuse and must be put down.
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Old September 19, 2006, 01:18 AM   #42
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Walk over to your neighbors when they are home. Politely knock on the door ask to see their dog. Pull out your Model 870 and 12 gauge it with slugs. Hand them a copy of your receipt with your current ammo purchase listed on it. Finally let them know you fully expect them to compensate you for the time and shells spent.
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Old September 19, 2006, 02:23 AM   #43
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How utterly childish, stupid, and ridiculous.
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Old September 19, 2006, 02:29 AM   #44
Blackwater OPS
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Quote:
Walk over to your neighbors when they are home. Politely knock on the door ask to see their dog. Pull out your Model 870 and 12 gauge it with slugs.
:barf:

Right about this point is where you would be getting the business end of MY firearm.

I think I need to change my sigline for the direction this forum is taking these days:

_________________________________________________________________

If plan A is taking multiple .308 rounds to the back, I think you need a plan B.
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Old September 19, 2006, 05:41 AM   #45
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Tasers

Depends on the dog. 50,000 volts is gonna stop the dogs body EASILY but with some dogs it won't stop his determination to get you.

Electric collar Fences didn't work for a couple of my Rotties. In fact, the zaps my boy Pono got when crossing the boundry REALLY pissed him off and got him barking and carrying on like a crazy dog whenever it happened. He wanted payback for the pain he was experiencing. What made it worse is, if he was on the charge? He'd blast right through the barrier ending up on the other side in a rage. Not good.

Anyway... to be real honest? If anyone were to harm my dogs on my property because they were bitten trasspassing? I would shoot them. I know it's wrong, I'm not stupid, but my dogs are like my kids and if they were not in the wrong? I would rather shoot whomever was hurting my dogs than harm my dogs for doing their job. Someone coming up to my house with a loaded gun is gonna find himself in a gunfight before getting a shot at my dogs.

Now, being a responsible dog owner if my dogs were to cause harm outside of my property I would take full responsibility for it. It is my job to keep my dogs under control and it would be my fault if they got out and hurt anyone.
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Old September 19, 2006, 07:29 AM   #46
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Wow. SO now we have people shooting other PEOPLE because they shot their dogs? Are you guys crazy?? Its a DOG! I am NOT for tresspassing on people's property, murdering dogs or any such bull - owned plenty myself and have a Shepard now...but the incident posted is a dog who repeatedly goes after someone in a public place who has a right to be there. And an adult is one thing - how about YOUR kid getting charged like that? Things change ALOT when the dog is seeing eye to eye with a child. Let me tell you - a "mad" dog goes for me, and especially my kid, as described here, I intervene directly BEFORE I/he gets his face bit up, and take one on the arm if I have to, but that DOG is going down for good. He deserves to.

Last edited by shield20; September 19, 2006 at 08:37 AM.
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Old September 19, 2006, 07:31 AM   #47
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Coming soon by Doug you-know-who:
"Do you pay attention to the dog in the car next to you??"
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Old September 19, 2006, 08:18 AM   #48
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Quote:
From the little I could see in that video, the pitbull did not appeared crazed at all, nor did it appear to be a threat to anything but the dog it attacked at the start. Maybe the OWNER of the pitbull should be shot, but, the dog wasn't threatening any human I could see...
So let’s get this straight. There was nothing wrong with the dog’s behavior other than the minor detail of it attacking another dog – but it wasn’t a human so no biggie. The dog was not crazed at all. Oh yeah, and we should shoot the owner.

Riiiiiiight.

You know what, I love my dogs more than most humans, and I'm sure most dog lovers/dog owners feel the same way. But I'll never understand anyone with the propensity for justifying aggressive dog behavior while at the same time condemning a resolute response by humans. I'm not necessarily addressing Socrates on that point - there are other to which that applies.

Unprovoked aggressive dog behavior should not be tolerated. Once dogs develop the tendencies associated with attacking other dogs and especially humans, it’s usually not a matter of if, but when a more serious attack will take place.

Most dog owners are not inclined to recognize the signs, nor skilled enough to reverse the tendencies in time to ensure the animal will maintain a calm domesticated demeanor. Owners fault – sure. But fault is not the point. Fault does not address the community’s obligation to deal with aggressive dogs in a resolute manner.
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Old September 19, 2006, 02:53 PM   #49
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Maybe you just smell like a MAIL MAN. I hear they can tell if you are from a mile away. Mailmen must be total ***** to dogs for them to remeber. Have you tried to befriend it? I come across stray dogs here at my house all the time. Just irresponsible people who don't lock their gates. They are usually shy at first if they are not accustomed to strangers coming up to them to be friends. I give them a biscuit or one of those dog salamis and by the second or third time they dont shy away but instead they think I am the owner. Lets see so far its been a boxer mix, a lab (Why did the lab cross the street? To scare the mailman!) a chow, a GSD, and a rottweiler that just layed down and I pet for a while until the owner came driving around. That mailman should be fired! He threw the mailbag at the dog like you would throw a purse at a snatcher. Whatever happened to...how's that go again...Through rain or shine blah blah blah blah the mail must get there or something like that But it was funny how that dog carefully went sneaking around the car and turned that guy's red hair white! I just picked up the dog and took him back across the street to my house. He didn't say anything. Probably alreay met the dog wherever he really lives.
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Old September 19, 2006, 08:41 PM   #50
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Walk over to your neighbors when they are home. Politely knock on the door ask to see their dog. Pull out your Model 870 and 12 gauge it with slugs. Hand them a copy of your receipt with your current ammo purchase listed on it. Finally let them know you fully expect them to compensate you for the time and shells spent.
All I can say is wow. What a B.S. response! That is exactly the kind of worthless input we don't need on TFL. And let me tell you that if I see an idiot (and I do mean idiot) with a 12 gauge (or any gun) approaching my home, you won't be seeing my dog.

Alot of dogs are just trying to show off. If you stand your ground you should be fine. Whatever you do, don't run. I have been "charged" a few times and what I have done is stomp my foot and take a step forward while raising my arms. The dog usually stops dead in his tracks. Sometimes they even turn around and high tail it back where they came from. The whole douse it with a cup full of water thing is a great idea, very effective. I had to do this to a stray awhile back and it worked extremely well. Maybe because it was a big gulp full of Mountain Dew. I would definately inform the Apt manager though.
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