The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 22, 2019, 09:49 PM   #126
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,243
Ron
Flattening a penny on a train track , brings back memories . What I meant by the nickel was the same as cam over , not a good thing to do .

Oh yeah, not a good thing to do. Will make your press pretty unhappy.

Never tried it but I suppose tomorrow I could try short of breaking the press. Figure a US Nickel is about 25% Nickel and 75% copper.

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 08:57 AM   #127
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Ron
Don't even try it .

Chris
cw308 is online now  
Old January 23, 2019, 11:19 AM   #128
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Let's say I place a nickel 5 cent piece between the shell plate and screwed down die could you make that nickel any thinner without damaging the press?
this is the Internet

I have arbor presses, I have no problem with adding leverage to the handle with a pipe/cheater. I have modified arbore presses to size cases, for me? No problem because the arbor is designed to hold shell holder' because this is the Internet this information was unknown until today. And then there is the something that holds the die and a means for holding the plate that holds the die.

I have used this system when determining the dimensions of an unknow chamber. That requires holding the barrel with a plate with a tapered hole. Now: With the Arbor press there is no such thing as the case winning, I can reduce the case to a slug and If I ever wanted to know how much pressure that requires I would simply add a strain gage marked off in pounds and at the same time I could measure the deflection in thousandths but this is the Internet.

And there are rams that have fittings for pressure gages, that is some scary stuff; I have used a few that went up to 200,000 thousand pounds. that puts a whole new meaning to measure before and again after.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 11:42 AM   #129
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Flattening a penny on a train track , brings back memories . What I meant by the nickel was the same as cam over , not a good thing to do .
I have cam over presses; it seems so unfair, my cam over presses are designed to cam over it has always been that way. And then came the 'AND THEN" moment; The Internet was invented.

I posted information about a smith that used an A2 RCBS press; he knew the press was a cam over press, he could never figure out what the cam over press did. Reminds me of a commercial running today about a your child complaining about her mother washing dishes before she loaded the dish washer. And she asked "What does the dish washer do?"

It seems you guys can not figure it out and you do not want anyone else figuring it out and you insist no one else knows.

Again: I have instructions for press operations, Unclenick has instructions for press operations.

I can not believe a simple phrase like adjust the die down 1/4 turn after contact could lock you up or as they say "drive you to the curb".

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 12:56 PM   #130
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,243
cw308:
Quote:
Ron
Don't even try it .

Chris
Naw, no damage to the nickel or the Rockchucker. I could take the nickel to the RR Crossing and wait for a train I guess. Apparently it takes considerably more force to flatten a nickle than to resize a cartridge case. Who would have thought?

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 02:35 PM   #131
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Naw, no damage to the nickel or the Rockchucker. I could take the nickel to the RR Crossing and wait for a train I guess. Apparently it takes considerably more force to flatten a nickle than to resize a cartridge case. Who would have thought?
I do not know about reloaders but there are hammers. I had a set of hammers with handles that were the same length. I know, that means nothing to reloaders but with a little practice I could match the swing and speed of the hammers, Still I understand that means nothing to reloaders but others would suggest getting a bigger hammer instead of hitting it harder. And then there were a few that developed a method for torqueing bolts with hammers, and then there were those that just hit the wrench harder with the same hammer..

And then there is the drop, if it is necessary to hit it harder simply increase the height of the drop.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 04:27 PM   #132
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
You throw out alittle bait in the water and see what happens . The post is don't stress your press . Why take things to the limit everytime , reloading isn't that complicated . You can buy 3 different brands of match grade ammo , find what works best in your rifle and go with that . Me factor is most of the problem with accurate shooting . Reloading is simple , some make it rocket science .
As posted , " Don't Stress Your Press ".
cw308 is online now  
Old January 23, 2019, 05:08 PM   #133
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,541
I have to ask cw308 , you use the Redding competition shell holders correct ? How do you use them correctly and not "stress" your press ?

In order for them to work as intended the die and shell holder need to make if not hard contact , at least firm contact or you will not have removed all the slack/flex/deflection in the press . Does this not put an extra load on the press other wise not there when sizing a case when the die and shell holder never touch ? How are you using the comp shell holders ?

When I first got my competition shell holders I actually screwed my die down far enough not to get cam over . What I found was that I was IMO forcing the die and shell holder together harder then needed . I'd size to the stop then give it a little extra push just to be sure . I learned later light cam over takes less effort on my part to size the case then when I had the die a little lower and a hard stop with an extra lean on the press handle .

This is why I keep talking about overly stressing the press . There is likely a load/stress point in which continually operating the press will do damage . The question should be what is the max load your press can continually handle . If light cam over does not get you there then the debate is moot . IMHO I stress my press less when sizing a 308 case with light cam over then if I were sizing a very large case like the 300WM or larger with no cam over and yet presses are designed to size those large cases all day . The largest case I size is a 270 and it is harder/takes more force to size then a 308 and may need twice as much force then a 223 case does .

As far as me/us making sizing a case more complicated then need be . I disagree or at least that's not what my intention is at all . I'm trying to have a better understanding of the issue . Nobody has given me any reason to believe cam over is hard on the press . Is leaning hard on the press arm to where you hear and feel the press snap/pop over the cam over good for the press ? No but that would be overly stressing the press IMO . I personally can barely feel the cam over I have .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 05:58 PM   #134
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Metal
I install the shellholder , raise the ram then lower the die to hit the shellholder lower the ram alittle , screw the die down , as a example , picture a clock 1 to 12 , I will lower 1 twelfth and feel if all the slop is out , remember I'm using a O Ring between the press and lockring on the die making it easy to fine tune .I can size to my measurements without adding force when raising the ram , lube of course.
PS
Have you tried the O Ring , once the lockring is locked on the die squeezing he O Ring between the press and ring , fine tuning the die height is easy on easy off . Works good for me. I go by feel , never had a issue sizing to the measurement I was looking for with my full sizing . The press I feel is very strong after having a royal screw up . I must have cleaned the doing and didn't have the right height on the decapper and blew out the primer pocket , first time I felt a hard size . Felt like such an A H. Press and die , shaft and pin were fine , the primer pocket sure looked strange . Strange things happen when you have your head up your gazoo.

Chris

Last edited by cw308; January 23, 2019 at 06:17 PM.
cw308 is online now  
Old January 23, 2019, 09:26 PM   #135
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,541
O ring may let it align better but does not do anything significant on the up stroke because the complete load is on the threads below the O-ring '

Quote:
I can size to my measurements without adding force when raising the ram
To quote Kathy Knewman , So what you're saying is . You watch for when the die and shell holder touch and stop as you actually see them touch rather then feel them touch as the ram stops ??

If the die and shell holder are making contact at the top of the stoke you are putting more load/stress on the press then is needed to simply size your case . It must be because the total load is based completely on how hard you press the die and shell holder together . Anything more then just the lightest kiss and you are putting more stress on the press then is needed unless you are watching for that kiss .

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs or challenging you but I'm not . Just pointing out what seems like an obvious fact . As soon as the die and shell holder touch ANY more pressure on the arm is putting more stress on the press then is needed . I don't think many have that good a feel to stop every time at the exact moment they touch . I believe Unclenick claims we as reloaders can't tell a difference of anything less the 10lbs of force when working the ram . According to some if the die does anything more then just barely kiss the shell holder your press is going to fail at some point do to that extra pressure . Now I've been arguing against that theory this whole time saying the press can handle a little extra that we all do if the die and shell holder make contact .

I still believe some are taking this whole idea out of context, They mean don't overly stress the press but are simply saying don't stress the press as if they are the same thing . The press is under quite a bit of stress when it sizes a case anyways .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 10:24 PM   #136
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
If you are referring to me , MG my definition of over stressing is causing more stress than necessary to accomplish the task. Never needed to cam over to set the shoulder back and never had a problem chambering a round. Now if I cam over I would be applying more stress than necessary to accomplish the task at hand
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 23, 2019, 10:38 PM   #137
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Metal
I like the back and forth , I think it's a matter of feel . When I set the die by feel and size the first few , I check the die to shellholder feel , must of the time I have to lower very slightly to get the same pressure when I first started . After that it remains the same . It's hard to explain a feel , it's more of a dead stop without pressure . It may be the flex in the O Ring , I'm not sure but it's worked well for me . The press is sizing 600+ 308's and 1800 45 ACP per year , I'm not beating the heck out of it for sure and I do baby it

I don't feel the press is under alot of stress when sizing the case , the case is a hollow brass thin tube being pushed up with a one inch steel rod inserted into a quarter inch thick steel die with a lube . What could add stress if the cases aren't cleaned properly or lubed . Insert a dry dirty case in a die , that's stress , lube it's sized smooth as silk .

Last edited by cw308; January 23, 2019 at 10:50 PM.
cw308 is online now  
Old January 24, 2019, 08:13 PM   #138
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,541
OMG , last night I wrote a long response to both you guys and when I clicked submit the screen said we can't securely open this page and when I went back everything I wrote was gone I was so mad I had to put the keyboard down before I threw it .

Quote:
If you are referring to me , MG
Sorry I did not mean for that to go unanswered so long . Generally I was speaking to you but not specifically . I understand what you've been saying as far as you not needing to cam over to get consistent cases and except that . As I hope you understand I do need cam over or at least firm contact between die and shellholder to get that same consistency .

Quote:
I think it's a matter of feel . When I set the die by feel and size the first few , I check the die to shellholder feel , must of the time I have to lower very slightly to get the same pressure when I first started . After that it remains the same . It's hard to explain a feel
Agreed and has been my point-ish . I believe I actually have less stress on the press with light cam over then I do if I have a hard stop and it's me pushing down on the ram that dictates how much stress my press is under . At 6'3 & 280lbs when I lean on something it feels it . It feels like I need less effort to cam over then the extra lean I'd put on the press if it made a hard stop .

That was an abbreviated version of last nights post that David Copperfield on me .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old January 24, 2019, 09:06 PM   #139
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
too bad about the post MG, I think that has happened to all of us at some time. If you take to long to type in a post the board logs you out. I need to get back to my old habit of 24 hour posting like I used to do on the gamer boards. I would type in a response for a thread in Notepad and not post it until the following day after I had time to think it over

Anyway understood. I use a real shallow setback on my shoulders. I just did some trims on those 6CM cases and I use Wilson trimmers. The cases went into the holder almost as tight as fired cases but I double checked the shoulders and they were right at .002 - .0025. I don't think the press would cam over if I tried.

If I were shooting a M1 or a Springfield I would have to approach the situation differently
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 25, 2019, 06:13 PM   #140
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,253
There is something that could be said.

Does cam-over damage presses? No, not really, you can run your press all the way through the cycle with only a few pounds of pressure being applied. You can turn the die in a few more thoudandths of an inch and raise that pressure, you can keep going until you can't do it any more, and then, you can get a piece of pipe to increase the leverage that you can exert.

Somewhere between the almost neglicible amount of extra pressure created by a hair's-breadth of cam over and the crazy force that can be applied by jumping up and down on an extension, every single press is going to reach a point where the bearing surfaces will begin to be damaged.


So I propose that we quit arguing about whether camming over is good or bad, or even whether it is necessary, and just agree on one thing.

Mechanical devices are not invulnerable to abuse, and camming a press over is abuse if you push too far.

Do it if you want to or need to but keep it minimal or your press may fail on you.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old January 25, 2019, 06:42 PM   #141
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
If you have to put some muscle into sizing when the die and shellholder is bottomed out , I would think it's over stressing your press . It could be in my situation , my cases don't require to much sizing , if my chamber was larger , requiring more sizing I could relate to having a harder time sizing , but I don't so I might not be so helpful in this post . Always good talking to my friends though.

Chris
cw308 is online now  
Old January 25, 2019, 10:21 PM   #142
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 2,306
Quote:
Do it if you want to or need to but keep it minimal or your press may fail on you.
add "sooner than it would have otherwise" and I will drink to that. Everything breaks eventually
__________________
“How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek
hounddawg is offline  
Old January 26, 2019, 08:54 AM   #143
Dufus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,671
Quote:
.....if my chamber was larger , requiring more sizing I could relate to having a harder time sizing.....
Not picking, but if the chamber was larger, wouldn't that equate to less sizing?? That is, if you wanted to keep the case close to rifle specs and not SAAMI specs.
Dufus is offline  
Old January 26, 2019, 09:14 AM   #144
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Metal god
Found a perfect example why not to cam over . If I were helping you get over a wall , you at 6'3 and 280 pounds , standing on my shoulders my knees big guy wouldn't last too long . Let me go first , I'll lower a rope to feel the strain. How are your joints doing . Be Well

Chris
cw308 is online now  
Old January 27, 2019, 04:31 AM   #145
jugornot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 20, 2017
Posts: 194
Excuse me for jumping in where I am no expert. I have a cam over press and I set it to cam over on my body dies. I reload for bolt and AR style rifles. I also use Redding competition shell holders to control the measurement of base to ogive. For my AR style guns I use the shell holder that my measurement to a new case base to ogive measurement. This turns out to be the 06 shell holder. For my bolt guns I use a shell holder that lowers my reading by .001 or .002. This happens to be 08 shell holder. If I used a standard shell holder I would have much shorter measurements. I would also be overworking the brass. It is very easy to use a cam over press and get the measurement you want with this accessory. I see that this has already been noted in the posts above. I know of no other way to control the base to ogive measurement and cam over the press. I suppose a washer (spacer) that went around the case and rested on the shell holder would work. But it also would be a fragile shim thickness.

I will also add that any of the dies that use a sliding guide (Redding Competition seating and neck dies for example) for the brass should never be cammed over.
jugornot is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 11:56 AM   #146
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Dufus
My way of thinking . When the case is wider or longer , both are putting some stress on the press but that's what its designed to do .when a case is longer then spec then you don't have to cam over to get your .002 setback and the shell holder and the die wouldn't bottom , I never liked that idea , that's why I went with the competition shellholders , the case is supported top to bottom . As Dawg tested the brass creeps into the case neck , also a reason to trim after sizing . Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .

PS
l always have to double check my posts , this tablet or whatever you call it keeps changing my words , once I answered a post from a guy called pipe guy and this thing changed it to tit guy . By the time I went back to the post I couldn't correct . He never answered my question . Sorry pipe guy , should have cut it short and just said guy .

Last edited by cw308; January 27, 2019 at 12:05 PM.
cw308 is online now  
Old January 27, 2019, 12:29 PM   #147
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 4,541
Quote:
Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .
I think we talked about it here but it depends on when the die and shell holder are making contact . I have pics showing the die and shell holder making contact before sizing but when sizing they no longer touch . In that case you'd need to screw it down more after they touched . If they are making contact at the top of the stoke when sizing a case then there is no need to adjust further , the case is not going to be sized any more then it already has at that point . Well unless you subscribe to the theory holding the ram at the top for a second or two will actually size the case more .

I know that does not make sense worded that way but it's what is meant . The theory is holding the ram at the top for a count or two reduces spring back on the case resulting in the case being shorter from head to datum point then it other wise would have been . That to me means holding it at the top sizes your cases shorter . Haha how's that for a can of worms this thread didn't need lol .

Quote:
once I answered a post from a guy called pipe guy and this thing changed it to tit guy
Happens to me all the time but it's not auto correct , it's just me pushing the wrong keys . I go back sometimes and look at what I wrote and think what the heck was that . Not sure if you guys have ever noticed but my posts are always edited , that's why haha . Maybe proof reading before submitting is a good idea for me .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; January 27, 2019 at 02:31 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 12:58 PM   #148
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
Quote:
Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .
I understand it gets complicated when threads are added, threads in the press and threads on the dies; not for me. The case has an ability to resist sizing, if the press can not overcome the cases' ability to resist sizing the reloader 'MUST' find a way to increase the presses anility to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing or reduce the cases ability to resist sizing. (I know, for most it got more complicated)

(It is possible I am the only one) I have increased the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing by placing a shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head before raising the ram. I use the same method when sizing cases for short chambers because I am limited by the amount I can reduce the length of the case when the die contacts the shell holder.

I am not infatuated with this thing called 'be nice to your press'; I understand the Redding Competition shell holders are nice,, I have one #6 set. I paid $5.00 for it. I have never used any of the shell holders from the set but I have it just in case (JIC). I am not convinced reloaders that do not use the Competition shell holders are tacky people and I do not believe if I purchased 6 sets for $440.00 dollars I would have a leg up on other reloaders.

And then it gets more complicated because of alignment: Not for me. One minute the reloader wants to be nice to his/her press and then he wants to jam the die down to the shell holder as in 'far enough',

And then comes the 'and then moment': And then I use the common ordinary everyday shell holder without the 'lift kit' Instead of the additional height I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage with a thickness of .006". When I raise the ram the press can not punish its self because I have adjusted the die off the shell holder.

And I wonder why you think your are better that anyone else because you use the Redding competition shell holders. I understand the selling point is sizing the case while the die is doing wonders when jammed up against the shell holder, I am told it simple does wonders. Back to alignment, My case aligns the ram with the die.

None of my presses have alignment pins, I have alignment pins, I have tools that make tapered pins for alignment and I have drills that are tapered and I have taps and tapered reamers to drill tapered threads in a tapered hole for tapered pins.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 01:08 PM   #149
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 6,798
the sliding guide?

Quote:
I will also add that any of the dies that use a sliding guide (Redding Competition seating and neck dies for example) for the brass should never be cammed over.
There is a thing called 'gets your money back'. It should be impossible to shorten the case between the shoulder/datum and the case head with a neck sizing die, I do not care how many stars fly out from between the die and shell holder.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 27, 2019, 03:17 PM   #150
cw308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2010
Location: Plainview , Long Island NY
Posts: 3,197
Metal
I could see spring back when the case is out of the die , but inside the die with no where to go , maybe more like spring in , kind of blows that theory . Two second rule I always thought when food hit the floor , if you got it in two seconds it was alright to eat . That's my spring back . This post is like using the word headspace , some do and some don't . As long as we turn out accurate safe reloads , is all that matters , even though some will have to buy new presses , ha ha.
PS
I'll be on this forum often , blow out my right knee and lower back playing with the grandkids , I'm walking like John Wayne but it was worth it , had a good time .

Chris
cw308 is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10630 seconds with 8 queries