What do you learn from a gunfight?

[Joe Demko]

I have noted that there is an attitude present on this board(and the other gun boards, too) that having been in an armed confrontation/combat somehow mystically transforms that person into one who is knowledgeable about armed combat.
Does having survived a mugging make one an expert on street crime?
Does having one's car stolen make one an expert on grand theft auto?
Okay, so you have fired a weapon at another person and/or been fired upon and you lived to tell the tale. That, IMO, doesn't automatically mean you took the best course of action or the only good one. It may mean you were lucky. It may mean your opponent screwed up even worse than you. Yes, it may even mean you did do the right thing. I know people who have survived auto accidents, but their having survived doesn't mean I'd turn to them for driving lessons.
I have students (kids) who lead the gang-banger lifestyle and for whom violence is a big part of the world. They've been in lots of armed confrontations with and without shots fired. Some of them have been shot, (one took a bullet through the neck) and survived. Yet only an idiot would call these kids combat experts and seek their advice.
What I'm saying is that just because somebody says that he's been in X number of gunfights and he did so... and so...and thus, that individual isn't automatically able to pass judgement at a higher level than others. On the boards, I see a few law enforcement and military types who have been involved in some shooting pontificate about it at great length, even to the point of apparently becoming psychic, since they predict what others would or should have done.
As a side note, I am amused by the way folks at these boards make fun of the gang-bangers and their sorry gun-handling skills until we hear a story about a confrontation with one. Suddenly, that gang-banger and his Lorcin isn't laughable any more. Now, we hear a tale of facing imminent death from a big, bad street criminal.
Anyway, what do you learn from a gunfight? IMO, all you really learn is what how you, personally, react to such a situation. No more, no less.

[This message has been edited by Golgo-13 (edited October 31, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Golgo-13 (edited October 31, 2000).]

[Bogie]

They suck. Don't get in that situation.

In the immortal words of Monty Python, "Run Away!"

Yeah, I'm a coward. No problem.

HOWEVER, should one unavoidably get in that situation, it's far better to bring a gun to a gunfight than it is to bring a knife or pepper spray.

[Spectre]

In regards to the last, it depends on the distance. I have seen deer take forever to bleed out when shot, but instantly dispatched with a knife. If the BG can't hold his gun, he can't shoot you with it...

[Art Eatman]

Been around guns all my life. Been shot at a couple of times. Read a lot of books and a lot of postings on the Net.

One thing is invariant and unchanging: The circumstances will all be different.

About all you can do is assume they're inherently Bad Things, to be avoided. You can train for certain physical skills, if you can't avoid them. And you can try to keep your cool, not panic, and try to survive a Bad Deal. In your head, you can play "What if?", I guess...

Predicting, in absolute terms? Fergit it!

Art

[animal]

[This message has been edited by animal (edited November 03, 2000).]

[LASur5r]

Golgo-13,
I was asked early when I wanted to join TFL, to recount some of the experiences that I have had in my life. This was done to present in a story form to help people analyze and take apart what they saw was done right and what was done wrong and what they believe that they could have done things differently...hopefully to survive.
I have been in unarmed martial arts for over 30 years and I spent a tour in 'Nam, playing soldier in Cambodia....all I can say is that I have survived and hope to continue to survive (thus the user name.)
I know that in all honesty, that I could lose at any time, despite doing everything right and if you read my posts, I have done more wrong than right.
The whole point of my telling "war" stories is not to talk about how great anyone is, or to espouse a philosophy, but simply share with fellow TFL'ers, a story which they can learn (good and bad) from and hopefully, it will prevent them from making the same mistakes and hopefully give them a perspective that they may not have thought of.
I have not noticed very many of the type of posts here on TFL that you have described. There are bound to be a few with so many members, but i didn't notice too many knuckle dragger, "Hoo Hah, me Tarzan, you Jane" type of stories....they are simply stories of survival.
Besides, I have learned in the military and with my years meeting with some of the various PD teams that I have worked with in the past, that good "after action" reports are invaluable to the "team" members...so that should we find ourselves in that situation hopefully we have learned what might work from someone who has been there.
You will find that there are some very experienced individuals on this board who have not written of their experiences to "pontificate" themselves or their experiences.
I guess what I'm saying...don't take things so seriously, read the posts, learn who the writers are and consider the sources. When you learn who some of the guys are, you will know who has been there and who you want to follow the advice of.
I think you'd be surprised the number of "experts" who are on TFL who rarely post responses except to benefit all of us on TFL.
Those that you don't like..."blow them off."

[Joe Demko]

LASur5r,
Actually, I didn't have you in particular in mind. I absolutely don't mean this as an insult, but until this thread I don't remember having read one of your posts.
Also, I'm not saying combat experience is worthless, only that it teaches you more about yourself than anything else. I'm always willing to learn from the experiences of others; both their successes and their mistakes.
While I'm on the topic of combat experience,let me digress to say I don't believe it improves a person. I have known 6 military veterans personally who expeienced a good bit of action. Two were WWII veterans, one was a Korean War Veteran, three were Vietnam veterans. One of the WWII vets and one of the Vietnam vets were multiply decorated for valor. All six of these gentlement led productive lives following their respective wars, but all of them also had horrible memories of the things they had done and seen, and every one of them expressed a wish at one time or another that he had never been part of a war. Three of them drank excessively after they came home, one was a drug abuser as well. I was with one of the WWII vets at his deathbed, and in his delerium he was back on the battlefield experiencing that hell all over again. He died thrashing and screaming. So, I kind of object to the posts that turn up on these boards from time to time that fawn over people who have been in combat and imply that they know something the rest of us never will. I object because what those people know is suffering, and we should appreciate that fact. The people who make those posts are really saying that combat veterans are somehow a better class of people. My experience with combat vets indicates that being part of that carnage damages you, it doesn't improve you. My father, my uncle, and my aunt were all cops, and so I grew up around a lot of police. I never knew one of them who had fired his pistol at another person and was happy about it, either. They were surely glad to be alive, no question about that. But they weren't too joyful about having killed or attempting to have killed another person. To conclude this semi-coherent post, combat is a terrible thing from what I have seen it do to the people who were part of it. That is one thing we should all learn from the gunfights of others.

[M1911]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Golgo-13:
To conclude this semi-coherent post, combat is a terrible thing from what I have seen it do to the people who were part of it. [/quote]

Someone said (Ayoob?) that the second worst thing that can happen to you is to survive a gunfight. Thankfully, I have no firsthand experience...

M1911

[LASur5r]

Golgo-13,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It showed a lot of insight as to the toll taken on combat survivors.
I had been thinking about the impact made and I heard a lot about the effects, but somehow the enigma attached to folks returning from combat was not a good one. All I knew is that most of the vets "didn't talk about it." and they were left alone to "deal" with their problems.
I didn't hang around a lot of vets until the late-90's. I also had not talked about any of my experiences, but I did a lot of things that my family thought was strange(sleeping outside for a while, getting up from time to time to patrol the perimeter, overreacting to sudden loud noises, etc...)
Bless my wife, she helped keep me anchored, although sometimes I'd revert back to my strange behavior. The timing of having our daughter also was good as she required me to be very stable...now, with God's blessings, I'm not too bad.
In fact, my ex-boss singled me out as one of the old-timers and sought to have me fired...He succeeded in that I took a demotion instead, but I did not go bonkers...although I did have several flashbacks and I did think of my days as a "spotter" in Cambodia, so I voluntarily took a demotion as I did not want to go section 8.
Am I doing ok.

[Deaf Smith]

Golgo-13,

Almost none of the big name gun school trainers have the kind of body count it would take to claim being a 'guru. Most, having been in a few life and death incidences, plus much training, can claim they have some IDEA of the true dynamics of confrontations. Maybe Cirillo can, as he has been through quite a few, but most cannot.

Those gang members who had been in many a fight, well it depends on what one defines as a fight. Amateur .vs. amateur? Where these gangs organizing training sessions on how to shoot? How to use ones hands or feet? I feel most of their training came from watching tv or bull sessions within their own group. I just really doubt they have their own gun ranges, dojos, boxing rings, etc...

Unless one has been through many fighting engagements one cannot be said to be an expert on the subject. Calvin Wire, a P-38 ace in the 475th FG in the PTO has written (on the net) that there were men who lucked out and shot down several unarmed bombers or transports and became an 'ace'. You have to get into the league of Bong, Johnson, McGuire, and such to really claim one understood fighter combat, for they had gone through 50 to 100 engagements. Even military fighting experiences are not fully useful because 'free fire' zones are not common on the streets.

The same applies to fighting with ones hands and feet, or with guns. While I have been in a few full contact matches, even have knocked out an opponent, I do not claim I understand fighting to any great depth (yea, I have my 'black belt', but that term has been way overused). I have also held a man at gunpoint who broke into my parents house during my collage days, but I am no gunfighter/expert as a result. I have been to several big name shooting schools and I guess I could talk some poor soul into thinking I am a real bad dude, but I know it would be a fake.

I do know enough to know when seeing trouble, to avoid if I can, and to fight to win if I can't.

Deaf

[Joe Demko]

Deaf,
You'd be surprised how effective the bangers in my area are with their hands and feet. Boxing is a favorite sport with them and many of them have been involved in ameteur boxing. As far as amateur vs. amateur fights (armed and otherwise), that describes almost all of them everywhere, doesn't it? Not a lot of professional killers out there and they seldom come up against eachother, I'd say. The bangers train themselves in a lot of bulldada techniques in an informal way. The sadly funny part is that a lot of us do to in a formal way. Think of the things taught in a dojo that will get you killed on the street burt work fine in the ring, for example. Lots of us run around with pistolas and think of ourselves as skilled because we know which end the bullet comes out. Oh well, you seem to grasp what I was getting at...

[Deaf Smith]

Yes, that I do Golgo. As far as training, I know several cops who work out extensively (they are bicycle cops). Extreemly strong. Other cops I know are as soft as a clerk in the womens shoe department.

While I have spent 20 yrs in the martial arts, plus at least 15 yrs in IPSC and IDPA, I know I can be hurt and hurt bad sticking my nose into problems (mine or others).

It does not matter how much experience, skill, smarts, and such one has. One can screw up (look at the 'Red Barron' 80 planes shot down, and a newbie pilot blows him away).

Train often, train well, and stay out of trouble.

Deaf

[Spectre]

My brother has had snakes for years. Over his lifetime, thousands of snakes. I recall hearing him snicker on watching a TV interview an "expert" who had been bitten numerous times by rattlesnakes ("rattlers", we called them in 'Bama).

"If he's an expert," Randy snorted, "why's he been bitten 48 times?"

My brother has never been bitten by a poisonous snake, despite having caught and kept them...
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One thing I can't really claim to understand is the guilt and trauma associated with a "righteous" slaying, and so, must conclude that much of it is cultural indoctrination. My earnest wish is to live a life of peace, and positively impact as many people as possible.
If I am placed in a position where an active and lethal defense is the only reasonable option, I expect to do it. And get on with my day.

[fubsy]

A recent event that effected a close friend was surving a attack in his store were he was stabbed 5 times with that sword sort of fits in this.........Dave has been an leo in various agencys for a while, last job as an leo was with the marine partol.....he has won a leo sponsored shoot in the state of fla., and has trained some competitors who have done well......we shoot together when my schedule will allow and he is good.....but when he was stabbed initially his plans fell apart and in the face of a hard pressed attack he was barely able to survive and this is a man with a decade or so of experience and some skill.......I learned a few things from that traumatic event....
1. Were murphy said that no plan survives contact with the enemy, otoole was more accurate, murphy is an optimist.
2. You can wait to long to go from condition yellow to red, the realization that this is happening to you needs to be instantaneous. Above all try and keep your head, even when it appears your losing.
3. It is the gun you have on your person that will save your life, and caliber matters only in were you place the shot.
4. There comes a point in every fight were you know you are going to win .....or you are going to lose.....and you must not quit fighting or you will die.
5. Friends are valuable and to be cherished.
6. The taking of a life even when you are justified has an effect on the individual and will for life. In this case every time he takes a shirt off and stands in the mirror there are the scars. Friends of the individual are affected as well as is his family and the family of the aggressor.
...fubsy...

[This message has been edited by fubsy (edited November 05, 2000).]

[SteelDrum]

I know only two men who have been in a gun fight against another person who was armed with a gun. My best friend, an FBI agent, doing surveilance with some other agents were very surprised when a drug dealer who they were following killed a man in a resturant. As they waited outside, they heard the gunshots and moved in. As they were almost to the door the bad guy came out shooting. My friend shot five times (he is a good shot) and hit the bad guy one time. Other agents hit him also, killing him. My friend tells me that it is not a great feeling to participate in killing someone, even if he is shooting at you. The second person I know is a rancher in Central Texas. This man is a 79 year old WW2 vet. I lease his 3200 acre ranch for deer hunting. I asked one time how many jobs he has had in his lifetime. He said, "Only two." I knew that he had been a rancher forever. I said, "What were the two jobs?" He said, "Ranching and killing Japs". I asked him how often he had to kill Japanese soldiers. He told me that after he had counted to 135 men, he stopped counting. He is honorable, decent, hard working, a true American. He did say that after a while killing men is simple as shooting a dog.

[dragontooth73]

Golgo-13, as much as there are people who have serious cognitive dissonance problems when it comes to discussing violence (here and elsewhere, though TFL has much, much less bullcrap than most other places by far, you'd have to admit) there are also a goodly number of very sensible, well-thought out people here. Many of them posted in this thread. I, personally am to be excepted from this list.

I think those who have enough presence of mind to think through things stand out for themselves here. I agree, that you do really learn about yourself through living violence firsthand or through the experiences of others. But I'm sure there's a commonality between people that lets them know, otherwise we'd never be able to truly share experiences or arrive at universal conclusions. That's why TFL is important, and it works.

I'm not a survivor like my peers, my senpai, my teachers. Youth has something to do with it. Uncanny good luck another. I might not turn to crash victims for driving lessons, but I can get driving tips. That's all I need. As far as I'm concerned, I'm probably too stupid to live my life exactly as it should be lived. But I can still try to avoid mistakes.

In the meantime, I think everyone should be allowed to indulge in a bit of bravado around the campfire. A little chest-thumping and spear-waving helps to make one feel safe in front of all those glowing eyes in the night

btw LASur5er, I thought your name stood for "LASurFer" lol ... all this time ... aiya ... that's how I guessed you were from da islands ... lol ... oh well. At least it worked.

[dragontooth73]

Speaking of which, Golgo-13, nice name. I've always loved that 30-something year old Japanese comic book series on Golgo, the ultimate marksman and gun for hire ... last episode I read before I left Japan for good had him make a 600 yard shot with his customized M16A2 ... trick was, it needed to be across skyscrapers through very thick bulletproof glass, so he had a 5.56x45mm round of depleted uranium specially cast for him LOL

That was great ... ahem ... where was I

[Joe Demko]

Thanks all for your well thought out replies. It is always a pleasure to discuss things at this board where people seem to behave with a modicum of gentility that is absent on many of the other boards.

Dragontooth- have you seen the two animated Golgo-13 movies available here in the US?

[LASur5r]

Golgo and Dragontooth,
You guys need to rent the video's, "Cowboy BeBop" and "Trigun". Japanese gunfighting with lots of humor.
You want decent swordfighting with Japanese humor, watch "Rurouni Kenshin, the Wandering Swordsman."
My daughter's school has an anime club and I am learning about all this stuff kids are getting into...oh joy.

[Justin]

TriGUN is phenomenal!
(And here I thought I was the only one who'd seen it.)
As for Golgo-13, I haven't seen those yet, but I'd like to.
So far though, 'Ghost In the Shell' is the most technically brilliant anime I have seen.
*ahem*
Anyway, back to cqc...

Justin

[dragontooth73]

Golgo, I haven't seen them. I don't even know which ones are available in English. But they're great.

For those in the dark, Golgo-13 is tall, dark, humorless, and Japanese. He has these huge bushy eyebrows and these unforgiving concorde windshield eyes. Makes one-hole groups at ranges of 600miles+ with his customized M16A2. Dang I love that guy. Every now and then I used to pick it up and read it before I got on the train etc etc. Guy shoots down Piper Cubs like skeet. I swear, it's the greatest thing LOL.

I swear when he had that depleted uranium round cast for him and shot it out of a M16A2 I had a fit for hours.

As for anime, there's a LOT of great swordplay stuff that isn't out in the States yet ... in Japan, most animation starts off as different weekly series in these huge thick mass pulp magazines distributed weekly/monthly. Readers can then pick the series of their choice and buy it in a much smaller book edition. Finally after a short binge of popularity it is adapted to screen. Most of the good stuff never makes 3rd stage though because comicbook writers tend to be their own artists/storytellers and have complete artistic control, and hate relinquishing it to others.

Best gun series: "City Hunter" ... Ex-merc turned private eye who can't get laid ... or "Gunsmith Cats" ... 2 female traffic cops who haul M249s and blast away at double parkers, habitual speeders, and just about everyone else. Plenty of NDs.

Er, what was the original topic?

[Halfpint]

What did *I* `learn'?

That I am only human.

And every time I dress the scars remind me.



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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-

[dragontooth73]

I think Christ proved the exact same point once ... and then one-upped it. Sobering.

[LASur5r]

You anime watchers....
You can order VHS tapes or DVD's on the topics we briefly talked of on the internet.

As soon as I can, I will get you some good sites. My daughter is watching a lot of it subbed so that we get the full flavor of the Japanese language and voices.

She tells me only the newbies order the dubbed tapes.

[twist996]

love the anime...subbed only, the way to go...just released 'princes mononoke' out here...brought tears

i read of others experiences to so that i can learn, from their mistakes or their correct actions....i have very little experience in such things, and hopefully will never have....just in case, i listen as much as possible...


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speak now, or forever hold your peace