10mm vs 40S&W

[MINSH101]

I would like your thoughts comparing the 10mm against the 40S&W for home defense. I'm not recoil sensitive and looking for a high(er) capacity firearm, compared to .357 magnum, with greater muzzle energy than a 9mm. I realize 10mm ammo is, at times, harder to find and more expensive than a 40, but can you really put a price on protecting yourself and those you love?

Also, if not too much trouble, which manufacture do you prefer? Glock? Ruger? Sig? Other?

Thanks

[Sevens]

Nothing wrong with choosing 10mm for plenty of reasons... in my opinion, specifically choosing it OVER .40 S&W doesn't get ya much, no matter how you want to argue it and use emotional bits like "putting a price on ones you love"

[Sharkbite]

In defensive ammo the difference is so small as to not matter. Forget about muzzle energy as a indicator of wounding effectiveness.

Pick the caliber/gun combo you can shoot the best and move on.

[RickB]

I'm no fan of the .40, but for home defense it's as good as 10mm.
If you are thinking full-power 10mm, then I'd say .40 is better; you won't get any benefit from the additional "power", while having to deal with the additional recoil, muzzle flash, noise, etc.

[MandolinMan]

Search Paul Harrell on YouTube. He just produced a video comparing these two rounds. Definitely worth a watch.

[DaleA]

--can you really put a price on protecting yourself and those you love?

Well I'm just going to be a snarky jerk here and say of course you can...most everything in life is a balancing act. If money were no object I might have just put 24/7 armed security around my loved ones and my house would be hurricane proof, tornado proof, fireproof and have its own generator.

To give you my honest thoughts about the 10mm, the cartridge has always appealed to me but for goofy personal reasons I just cannot bring myself to submit a poor unsuspecting 1911 to that kind of abuse. BUT for me I don't particularly like Glocks. And therefore, I think I would love to have a 10mm Glock.

I've fired a friend's Gen 3 Glock 20 short frame and I liked it a lot (well, a lot for a Glock that is) and was seriously considering it but now the same guy is bemoaning the fact he didn't get the long barrel Glock 40 with the modular optic system on which he could easily mount a red dot or some other optic. The obvious solution would be for me to buy his Glock 20 and him to get the Glock 40 but he's talked it up so much I think I would go with the Glock 40 also. (And both of us adhere to Cheapshooter's Rule of Firearms Acquisition---never sell anything.)

And let's face facts, for either of us the Glock 20 or 40 is NOT going to be a carry gun. It's going to be a range toy that would make a very good home defense gun too. And while there IS the Glock 29 subcompact 10mm I still would not carry the thing as I like the bigger guns with the higher capacity and the extra weight that soaks up the recoil yada, longer sight radius, yada, yada.

To make a long story short (yeah, I know that boat sailed three paragraphs ago) if I hit the lottery a Glock 20 or Glock 40 would be in the works and today I'm leaning more toward the Glock 40 MOS.
https://us.glock.com/products/model/g40gen4mos

[pblanc]

I agree that muzzle energy alone is not a good predictor of wounding effectiveness, but if you disagree you might consider 357 SIG. 357 SIG offers nearly 50% more muzzle energy than even +P 9mm Luger with the same mass and same diameter projectile and has the same magazine capacity as .40 S&W.

Now, I am not really advocating 357 SIG for home defense. It might have some advantage over .40 S&W for barrier penetration if one anticipated a need to shoot through automobile doors or windshield glass. It has quite a bit more muzzle flash and is significantly louder than .40 S&W both of which might be considered distinct disadvantages for interior use, and it is much more expensive than either 9mm Luger or .40 S&W when it comes to FMJ range ammo, although no worse than 10 mm in that regard.

I really don't think either 357 SIG or 10 mm offer any real advantages over .40 S&W for home defense, but with some pistols both 357 SIG and .40 S&W can be shot out of the same pistol using the same magazines with only a barrel change. That allows using .40 S&W for most of your practice which is much more economical than either 357 SIG or 10 mm.

[reddog81]

Do you reload? If so I'd go for a 10mm. If not I'd just choose whichever gun suits your wants the best.

If ammo cost is a big factor you need to consider 10mm costs about 40% more for 10mm. At least that's what a quick search indicates to me.

Glock, Ruger, Sig, Colt... as far as I'm concerned they all make good guns. Go handle a couple and see which one fits you the best.

[Sevens]

If I hit the lottery...

Okay, if you hit the lottery and your big purchase is a Glock, and you post & I read, I'm gonna lose my lunch.

I don't like Glocks much either, except for one. Not one model, one single Glock, my 2008-build MML-prefix Glock 29 which I carried daily for seven years and have put nearly 7,000 rounds through. It's been a damn good gun to me.

[Deaf Smith]

Standard 10mm ammo gives a 180 gr JHP at 1150 fps while a .40 S&W gets the 180 at 1050 fps.

BUT, top loads can get the 180 gr from the 10 mm at over 1250 and there is no way to safely get the .40 any higher than 1100 fps. Plus the 10mm can take 200 grain slugs.

I have 10mm in 1911 and Glock formats and .40 S&W in 1911 and Glock formats. I use the 10 for the woods and the .40 for CCW. It has more to do with size of the platform than the cartridge.

Deaf

[Siggy-06]

.40s&w will do just fine for home defense. I have a USP, M&P40c, Shield, and Glock 23 gen 3: all in .40s&w. I personally shoot the Glock 23 the best, but the M&P40c feels best in my hand. I was able to find .40 ammo the easiest during the 2012 panic, and can usually find it on the shelves wherever I go. .40s&w just has that little extra oomph over the 9mm imo.

[Ridgerunner665]

10mm is awesome!!!

700 ft. lbs. of awesome, as long as you have medium to large hands the 10mm Glocks are fine weapons.

For the smaller hands.... Don't overlook the 357 Sig....600+ ft. lbs. of energy in small frame pistol, with the right ammo (Underwood, Cor-bon, etc.)

40S&W is good... But I've never considered it great at anything.

[MINSH101]

Paul Harrell is GREAT

[TruthTellers]

The benefit that 10mm has over .40 is the extra power. That comes in handy for dangerous predators outdoors, maybe even in a combat situation (FBI Hostage Rescue Team still authorizes its use I believe.)

Also, the 10mm can be loaded down to .40 S&W levels, which it was for a short time before the .40 S&W came out. Point being is if you want a .40 S&W for home defense, but also power to kill bears, only the 10mm Auto can offer that.

[PatientWolf]

Unless you are protecting your home from bears, I think the .40 S&W is more than up to the task. Now if you want the weapon also to be a woods gun, I would lean toward the 10mm.

[BBarn]

Full power 10mm is generally more than necessary for SD and has considerably more flash and blast as compared to the 40 (as already pointed out). Compared to the 10 the 40 offered the performance the FBI wanted in a 9mm sized package, with additional rounds as a bonus. The same holds true today. And if you want more than 8+1, the grip will be rather large on the 10. Actually in terms of grip size the 10mm guns are comparable to the 45 Auto offerings.

[Lohman446]

I have a G29, have owned a G20, and have a Delta Elite.

The G20 and G29 were first and I could not figure out what the recoil issue everyone eluded to with 10MM was - even using full power ammunition.

I picked up the Delta Elite and I am now well aware of the recoil issue people eluded to. Is it unmanageable? Not at all. But really the Glocks are far away better at managing the recoil in the firearm.

10MM has, for me, some advantages once you get "off the trail" The extra power available probably means VERY little when we are discussing two legged threats. When you are already at the "I hope this will do it" end of the spectrum in regards to four legged threats every little bit helps.

To me the 10MM compares to the .357 if one counts from the bottom of the scale to the top of the scale with 10MM having the capacity advantage (my G29 is roughly the same size as my SP101 but carries twice the ammo + 1 on board).

[Nanuk]

In most factory loadings the 10mm is loaded no hotter than the 40 S&W, it doe however have the ability to safely do so.

[CDW4ME]

I have a 20SF and a Glock 22 - my chrono averages for at least 5 shots
Glock 22: Factory load Speer Gold Dot 180 gr. @ 975 fps / 380# KE
Glock 20SF: Handload 180 gr. Gold Dot @ 1,146 fps / 525#

What does the additional 171 fps / 145# (+28%) KE do?
In water filled gallon jugs with 4 layer denim in front:
40 S&W penetrates to rear of 4th jug and expands .64
10mm handload penetrates to rear of 3rd jug, dents 4th and expands to .75
Additional velocity expands the bullet to larger diameter which actually reduces penetration.
Would this matter for SD? IDK

The rest is not specifically for OP question but needs addressed, IME
Why did I not load the 10mm hotter? 2nd shot / follow up shot time.
Anyone that has actually shot a Glock 21SF (45 acp) probably regarded it as "soft shooting" and it is.
10mm recoil can be controlled so that although it feels different from 45 acp it doesn't have a negative effect on 2nd shot time.
Since the pistols are the same size with same grip ect... a valid comparison can be made.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php
1.8# firearm weight for Glock 20/21
Powder charge assigned to factory load based on max charge #5 from AA load manual, reasonable guess. 10mm charge actual used.
Glock 20: Handload 180 gr. Gold Dot @ 1,146 fps / 525# KE - recoil energy 11.2 / PF 206
Glock 21: Federal HST 230 gr. @ 863 fps / 380# KE - recoil energy 11.1 / PF 198
I think recoil energy best matches my subjective impression, but I included the power factor PF as well.
20SF with 180 Gold Dot offers two more rounds capacity and 28% more KE than the 21SF in 45, with a similar level of felt recoil.
I don't know which is "better".

Somebody is thinking, "But muh 10mm power, that doesn't seem full power"
My 180 Gold Dot handload produces power (KE) on par with original self defense load, 10mm Silvertip, averaged 1,170 fps / 533# from a Glock 20SF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmNL30om6Eo

For the "KE don't matter at handgun levels" people:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/
Both of these meet 12-18'' penetration goal and expand, same starting diameter bullet, similar penetration, similar recovered diameter.
380 Hornady FTX Critical Defense 13.2'' / .52 (90 gr. @ 910 fps = 165# KE)
9mm Corbon JHP 13.6'' / .56 (115 gr. @ 1,221 fps = 381# KE)
"KE don't matter" people should be equally content to bet their life on the incapacitation potential of the 380 as the 9mm +P (I wouldn't).

[pblanc]

I said that "muzzle energy alone is not a good predictor of wounding effectiveness". The key word in that sentence is "alone".

With handgun calibers the factors that influence wounding effectiveness for a single wound are placement, depth of penetration, and diameter of permanent wound channel. The last is going to be determined by caliber, degree of expansion (if any) and whether the projectile yaws or tumbles. Kinetic energy may come into play if there are barriers interposed between the shooter and the target.

Of course, barrier penetration, depth of penetration, and degree of expansion are going to be related to muzzle energy and muzzle velocity although, as you pointed out, sometimes an increase in muzzle velocity can decrease penetration through an increase in expansion.

But some maintain that muzzle energy is a determinate of wounding effectiveness above and beyond its influence on these factors, such as those who adhere to the "energy deposit" or "hydrostatic shock" theories. I have seen no real evidence that theories such as these apply to wounding effectiveness with handgun calibers and I don't subscribe to them.

Now with regards to the choice of a pistol caliber for self-defense within the home, which I believe was the OP's question, there are many .40 S&W loads that offer excellent expansion and good penetration for this purpose with less risk of over-penetration than the hotter 10 mm loads.

[Areoflyer09]

I can’t tell you which is better. I’ve never actually shot a 40SW.

But I can compare the recoil from a 10mm to a 45. I traded my 1911 LW Commander, about 35oz, for a Tanfolgio Witness Lim Pro, about 45oz. I feel less recoil with the Witness using factory Sellier & Bellot ammo, 180gr @ 1164fps, than I felt with the 1911 using CCI Blazer Brass factory ammo, 230gr @ 830fps. I do have some hand loaded 10mm that feels similar to the recoil the Commander had, but I don’t know the specs on it. It’s not a perfect comparison, a full size 1911 would probably feel softer than the Witness. But it at least gives a perspective on it.

I’ve enjoyed the Witness so much I’m looking at picking up a 6” Hunter model as well. The grips are large, but I find them comfortable even for my small hands.

As much as I enjoy my Witness and the 10mm, my HD pistol is a PPQ in 9mm. If I needed more than 9mm, I’m going for my .357 rifle.

[brian33x51]

40 S&W for 2 legged, 10mm for more general including 4 leggers right?

[TruthTellers]

^That's the general idea.

[T. O'Heir]

The 10mm's felt recoil is no more than a hottish .45 ACP out of a 1911A1. There's no comparable data on Chuck Hawk's recoil page though.
"...harder to find and more expensive..." Can be fixed by reloading.

[lee n. field]

Originally Posted by MINSH101

I would like your thoughts comparing the 10mm against the 40S&W for home defense. I'm not recoil sensitive and looking for a high(er) capacity firearm, compared to .357 magnum, with greater muzzle energy than a 9mm.

Seems to me I saw a vid on that recently.....Ah, here we go: Paul Harrell:Is a 10mm more powerful than a .40s/w?. Short, worth viewing. Short answer, not always.

Also, if not too much trouble, which manufacture do you prefer? Glock? Ruger? Sig? Other?

I like my Springfield XD .40s. And no, I don't find .40 "snappy" or unmanageable. No experience or preference in 10mm.

I realize 10mm ammo is, at times, harder to find and more expensive than a 40, but can you really put a price on protecting yourself and those you love?

We do it all the time.