Trapdoor Springfield

[Jim Watson]

Everybody was doing it. We had the Trapdoor, chosen from a dozen contenders for conversion of muzzleloader to breechloader, the British had the Snider, The French had the Tabatiere, most often seen now as the Zulu trade gun, no doubt other Powers had their own designs.

Interesting thing to me is how small a proportion of the many rifle muskets were converted. Flayderman says 5000 1865 Allins and 25,000 1866 Allins out of the half million plus 1861 and 1863 muzzleloaders. Were so many worn or damaged too badly to bother with?

[ligonierbill]

No worries, I ordered some Starline brass. I have my brother's 1884 (mfg 1891) on loan, and will try both 405 and 500 gr close copies of the original bullets. He hasn't fired this rifle, but it is in excellent condition.

From what I've read, better ammo wouldn't have saved Custer. And Reno, though he took severe casualties, did manage to hold off the natives and escape.

[Mike Irwin]

"Interesting thing to me is how small a proportion of the many rifle muskets were converted. Flayderman says 5000 1865 Allins and 25,000 1866 Allins out of the half million plus 1861 and 1863 muzzleloaders. Were so many worn or damaged too badly to bother with?"

Well, it's a complicated answer.

The big difference, I think, between the US and Britain is that the British simply converted to a cartridge (.577 Snider) that worked with the existing barrel.


The US originally tried that, with a .58 rimfire, but decided to go with a smaller caliber bullet with better ballistics -- the .50-70.

So, they started by relining the barrels to .50.

That worked. Until the liners started detaching.

So, they decided to manufacture new barrels.

That sort of worked better.

Then the decision was made to go with an even smaller caliber cartridge, the .45-70. At that point, it was cheaper to come up with an entirely new rifle instead of trying to make do with converted rifled muskets.

And, finally, there was never the intent to convert all US rifled muskets because the number of available guns to convert FAR outstripped the number of soldiers in the post civil war Army.

[SaxonPig]

With the lever action Winchester available I am at a loss to understand why the Army chose the Trapdoor. Some say the brass wanted a slower rate of fire for economy. I dunno. I have a modern H&R Trapdoor and it's cool but if I have to choose between it and an 1973 Winchester for fighting there would be no hesitation in picking the lever gun.

[Mike Irwin]

The same reason they got rid of the Spencer.

Limited range.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[ligonierbill]

FWIW, I got my supplies this week, loaded 10 each 405 and 500 gr (Buffalo Arms), and took my brother's Trapdoor to the range. I loaded Alliant Black MZ, a BP substitute I really like, and fit 65 gr under both bullets. This rifle is a model of 1884 with the improved sights. At 100 it shoots high, but once I figured out the sight picture, I was putting them in the black. The 405s seem more accurate. I got almost no lateral variation with them. Fun rifle.

[TRX]

> And in that time, cheap was a big deal for the Army.

Just because they were supposed to save their empty brass and send it back to the depot to be reloaded doesn't mean th... wait. Yep, the Army was definitely cheap.

[James K]

One thing we often forget is that c. 1866 and after, the U.S. Army had no significant enemy except the native Americans, whose firearms were, at best, obsolete and poorly maintained. (The myth of every "Injun" having a brand new repeating rifle and cases of ammunition was just that - a myth. Most had no firearms at all, only spears and hatchets, and ammunition for the few firearms they did have was scarce.)

But the Army planners always feared falling far behind the European powers in weaponry, a fear that turned real enough when war came with Spain. So the Army had (it believed) to think about a weapon that would at least have a range equal to that of a British or French rifle, not just match the miscellaneous carbines and muskets the Indians had. Hence the desire for long range over rapid fire (the same arguments made with other guns at later times).

There have been numerous analyses of the LBH battle, but among historians (not the gun "nuts") there seems a general consensus that the Army's weapons and ammunition troubles, while real enough, were secondary to a lack of fire discipline, poor command and control in general, and the simple fact that there were just too darned many Indians.

Jim

[44 AMP]

There have been numerous analyses of the LBH battle, but among historians (not the gun "nuts") there seems a general consensus that the Army's weapons and ammunition troubles, while real enough, were secondary to a lack of fire discipline, poor command and control in general, and the simple fact that there were just too darned many Indians.

Some of us gun nuts agree with this. It wasn't the Trapdoor that lost at Little Big Horn, it was Custer's tactics. The ammo problems certainly didn't help any but mostly it was "too many Indians".

Look at the battles of Isandlwana, and Roarke's Drift. British armed with single shot .45 caliber rifles. Huge disparity in numbers. Troops in the open, wiped out by the natives. Small number of troops in a defensive position, held out. Tactics matter.

One interesting tidbit I heard was that when the relief column reached Roarke's Drift, they were down to the basic load of ammo for their troops, and expect resupply because it was known that there was 25,000 rounds stored there. There was no ammo resupply for them, because the 200 some odd defenders had used it up!!!

[Mike Irwin]

"The ammo problems certainly didn't help any but mostly it was "too many Indians"."

Judging by what I've seen from battlefield recovery, the number of "ammunition problems" as in extractors tearing through the rims of cartridges, was low to the point of it having no applicable or practical effect on the course or outcome of the battle.

What is known is that the first .50-70 conversions (which apparently had an even smaller extractor bearing surface) did have a greater issues with the extractor tearing through the cartridge rims.

[DPris]

Libby would be rolling in her grave to hear it said- but the cause of the death of Custer's command was Custer.
Denis

[SIGSHR]

Too many Indians, little if any reconnaissance, dividing of forces and not mutually supporting, poor choice of position....

[dahermit]

With the lever action Winchester available I am at a loss to understand why the Army chose the Trapdoor. Some say the brass wanted a slower rate of fire for economy. I dunno. I have a modern H&R Trapdoor and it's cool but if I have to choose between it and an 1973 Winchester for fighting there would be no hesitation in picking the lever gun.

I remember one of the gun rags (years ago) doing a comparison test of the sustained rate of fire for the trapdoor Springfield and a lever-action. Their results demonstrated that, despite being a single shot, the Trapdoor had a higher rate of fire over time. It seems that despite being faster in firing multiple shots, the time it took to reload the magazine of a lever -action negated that advantage. The article also stated that was true until the advent of stripper clips for bolt actions.

[44 AMP]

Too many Indians, little if any reconnaissance, dividing of forces and not mutually supporting, poor choice of position....

Don't forget human ego. Particularly Custer's.

IF, on finding out that they were hugely outnumbered (something on the order of 10 to 1), the entire command had ridden hell for leather AWAY, until they found a defensible position, and let the Indians come to them then, the battle could have turned out quite differently.

But the US CAVALRY (and particularly a unit commanded by Custer) simply could not run. Nor would they envision a fighting retreat in the face of "mere savages".

I've heard Custer had a couple of Gatling guns available to him before he set out. He intentionally left them behind, believing the mules they were packed on would slow him down. If he had taken them with him, would they have made a difference in the end? Would his troops have had the time to unpack and set them up, and defend them long enough to matter?? We'll never know.

[DPris]

Theories vary, but I suspect the Gatlings COULD, if used as part of a better strategic plan (or pretty much ANY strategic plan), have made quite a difference.
Denis

[Mike Irwin]

"Theories vary, but I suspect the Gatlings COULD, if used as part of a better strategic plan (or pretty much ANY strategic plan), have made quite a difference."

So could have a wing of A-10s dropping a bunch of sticks of Rockeye CBUs...

But they weren't there, either.


IIRC Custer decided to leave the Gatlings behind because much of the ground his patrol was going to cover was broken with ravines and such, and maneuvering the guns would have been very problematic.

[J.G. Terry]

At Friendship, I recall buckets full of stuck case removers issued for trapdoor. Likewise, the combination tools were in abundance. All this was twenty plus years ago. Bought one of each to go with my rod bayonet TD. There is a mindset that if a single shot action can be made into a 22-250 is great. Otherwise, it's junk. Point being handling a TD as a black powder low pressure gun will do you well. One factor that makes for a bad reputation is that bore diameters are often larger the our 458. My last TD had a groove diameter of .462. Getting bullets of the right diameter proves these rifles, in good condition, to be shooters. Also, using the issue sights TD's will shoot high at our normal 100 yards. Make sure you do not get a TD that has been through the Bubba custom shop. Pedersoli, based on my experience, makes good firearms.

Addendum: I have learned not to fiddle with rust frozen firing pins in breech blocks. A method of removing these stuck firing pins would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike Irwin]

Try this...

Soak the entire block in a good penetrating oil. Even better is if you can put the breech block in penetrating oil in an ultrasound tank.

That will help break up the rust.

Then, taking an appropriately sized brass rod, try gently tapping the firing put out through the breechface.

If that doesn't work, wrap the entire thing in something impermeable (like aluminum foil) and throw it into your deep freeze for a couple of days, and then try tapping the firing pin out again.


And yes, stuck case removers were issued liberally with Trapdoors.

Why?

Because self-contained metallic cases were still new technology, black powder still caused a lot of chamber fouling, and between the two there were a lot of opportunities for cases to get stuck.

I seem to recall that Winchester either sold, or included, a stuck case extractor with its Model 1876 rifles for those very reasons.

[Jim Watson]

I once read that the basic load of ammunition for cavalry of the period was 20 carbine, 18 revolver; and that troopers were opposed to having to carry more.
Zat so?

I have also read that the reason the Spencers were replaced by Trapdoors was that Spencer folded in 1869 and the guns were worn out by the mid 1870s with no source of parts.

[J.G. Terry]

Rusting firing pins were such a problem that you find 1880's vintage TD's with issue bronze firing pins. We have soaked breech blocks so rusted in kerosene for a year. Those pins stayed stuck. The hole in the breech face is too small to put anything substantial enough to move that pin. I'm sure there is a way to do it. These things are so stuck that normal means just do not work. I'm open to suggestions. The last breech block we tackled unsuccessfully was in excellent condition on the outside. More recently we trashed a breech block with rusted in firing pin. We found a donor rifle from the Bubba Custom Gun works with salvageable lock and breech block. We are talking about a century plus of black powder crud. This damage may have had to do with government cartridges.

[Mike Irwin]

Try the freezer method.

And try the brass drift through the firing pin hole in the breechblock.

Yes, it's small, but I used that very method to free a stuck firing pin on an SKS. For that, though, I used a piece of drill rod with a relief hole drilled in it then lathe spun down to the correct size.

It worked.



Matter of fact, if you had one of the bronze firing pins for the Trapdoor, you could use that as the punch. Probably trash it, though.

When you get right down to it, though, the only real way to get a thoroughly rusted pin out may well be to drill it, thread it, and pull it with a slide hammer.

[J.G. Terry]

Mike, thanks for the suggestions. As it happens this problem of stuck firing has to do with heavy rust related black power fouling. It's not stuck, It's frozen in there. It would be helpful if you could find a TD breech block with rusted in firing pin for experiments. Share the outcome with us. What you are suggesting will not work. Been there done that.

Addendum: Another version was the Gatling guns were out of time and not usable.

[Mike Irwin]

Rust is rust. Doesn't matter what it was caused by.

To be honest, I don't have any interesting in trying to free up a rusted TD firing pin because I don't have a TD, and don't ever expect to.

To be perfectly blunt, there really aren't many other options that what I've suggested. If they don't work, I really doubt that anything is going to work.

[J.G. Terry]

Now we are on the same page. As I had originally posted be aware that the grove diameter may be surprisingly generous. In my case the .458 bullets would ride on top of the lands and keyhole at 50 yards. Right size bullet...shot very well. Having three lands and groves complicates slugging. The second part was to make sure the rifle was functional. A we agree it may be near impossible to clear a frozen firing pin.

As a side note: Many of the lock parts on trapdoors are interchangeable with those of the 1861-1863 Springfield's. Also, look for broken bridles from dry firing. Take care and be safe.

[J.G. Terry]

Actually, Springfield Armory did use 1863 locks on Trapdoors until the Model 1873. Other parts from the rifle muskets were employed where possible. If I understand the situation correctly this economy was a serious consideration in adopting the TD design.

Also, the stuck case remover also was designed to scrape fouling. Many of us have attempted to undo blackpowder related rust on long neglected firearms. We know the true scope and meaning of ruined. Period.

I hope the OP finds a good Trapdoor. These rifles are well made and all that implies. The US Army did not issue junk. Getting into to these blackpowder breech loading rifles is highly addictive. Good luck and best wishes.