loads not grouping, need advice - Page 2

**Unclenick** · October 19, 2012, 04:13 PM

I can't think of any Unique loads that have maxed out accuracy for me in either .44's (Mag or Special). I have had some very excellent light loads of Bullseye, though. I'm guessing the ignition issue mentioned earlier is the fly in the ointment. Bullseye lights up earlier and faster. A magnum primer might complicate the issue by making enough gas to unseat the lightly crimped bullet before the Unique is really burning well. I would try a mild primer like a Federal 150 or a Wolf or Tula LP standard primer.

Er775,

Several suggestions:

Find a way to identify each chamber in your cylinder. There may be a zero mark stamped into the ejector, or some other indicator your can find. If not, take a Magic Marker and put a temporary registration mark somewhere. Next, from your 20 remaining rounds, fire a cylinder full for fouling shots, and then fire a cylinder full as you did previously. Use a spotting scope or some binoculars and a piece of paper so you can record which chamber made which hole. Identify the chamber that threw the round closest to the center of the group.

Next, fire a separate group of six onto a separate target with each round loaded only into the chamber that produced the middle hole in the first group. That means loading one in the chamber, shooting it, then opening the cylinder to eject the round and place the next one in the same chamber. If the group you get is tighter than the previous group that used all six chambers, you can see about how much improvement having your chambers reamed will produce. That's always the first step in accurizing a revolver anyway. But if the single-chamber group is no better than the first group, then you probably have the bore constriction issue. If the single-chamber group is somewhat better, but not great, you probably have some of both going on.

This review of cleaners from a 2006 issue of Precision Shooting concludes that petroleum-based bore cleaning products like Break-Free don't clean carbon well. To get that done, they recommended Slip 2000's product that is currently called Carbon Killer (it used to have several names they've consolidated). When I got some they sold it as a gas cylinder and piston cleaner. It smells a bit like citrus based paint stripper, and the chemistry seems pretty harsh. I found it slightly etched Parkerizing when an extra long soak (several hours) was required on ancient and heavy carbon cake at the end of a Garand op-rod.

I can also recommend you try Boretech C4 Carbon Remover. It works very well and is virtually odorless and not harsh on a finish. It came out after that article was written, so they never tried it. The Boretech stuff has good corrosion inhibitors and you can leave it in a bore indefinitely.

If you want a CLP, try Gunzilla. It also attacks carbon well, but is just slower working than the other two products. I've had good luck leaving it sitting overnight or longer on old carbon. If you buy their little pump spray bottle and get it on the gun and in the bore at the range, while the carbon is still soft (it hardens over time), you'll be amazed how much more easily it comes off by the time you get it home. It leaves a lubricating film behind that doesn't attract dust.

If you want a general purpose cleaning product that gets copper and lead as well as carbon, Boretech Eliminator, mentioned in the article, is the one I use for general purpose cleaning. It's carbon removal isn't as good as the separate Boretech Carbon Remover product, and its attack on copper isn't as rabid as, say, KG-12, but for a jack of all trades (except lubrication) cleaning product it is hard to beat. It's another I keep in a pump sprayer and apply to rifle bores at the range. By the time I get home, they're pretty much cleaned with a couple of fresh patches.

Anyway, there are new and much faster cleaners now available. One thing you can do with BF CLP is shake the bottle well to suspend the Teflon, then mix a slurry of it with JB Bore Compound and put it on all the moving parts of your model 29 action like it were a grease, then close the gun back up and dryfire it double-action like this until you feel the JB wear out. This is a S&W armorer's school trick for smoothing up double-actions, in particular. The JB breaks down and polishes while the Teflon gets worked into the surface of the metal as a permanent lubrication. It does make the actions feel very smooth.

er775 · October 19, 2012, 05:04 PM

unclenick darn good post!!!! thanks

m&p45acp10+1 · October 19, 2012, 05:44 PM

I have had great results in .41 Mag loads using AA#9. Yes the recoil is near to what the factory loads are, though there is much less flash, and muzzle flip to my point of perception.

Oh and if you are going to use it for hunting. Instead of grouping. Try hanging up paper plates for targets. Shoot each one once. If all of the shots are in the non ribbed area it will do the job on any deer you put the sights behind the shoulder of. In the opening you said the first two were close then the group opened up. That tells me it is from one of three things. 1. Flinching (it happens to many of us with large bore mags after a few shots. The good news is when hunting you only will get one shot anyhow.) 2. Not crimped enough ( as has been mentioned.) 3. Barrel heat (wait at least 3 minutes between shots if the barrel feels warm. Though I have never had this problem with the single actions I use for hunting hogs.

er775 · October 30, 2012, 04:43 PM

ok went out today to re set some tree stands and took the 629 with me, I put a cylinder full into a target about 25 yrds away, all could fit in a 6 inch paper plate

I`ll take it !!!!!!

I ordered some of that Ted Nugent ammo online, 240 gr soft point,put a few of them down range as well just to see how they do, same results,all fit on the same 6 inch paper plate..

what did I do to improve my group????

I backed the charge down to 9.5 grns of unique instead of 10 and put just a bit heavier crimp on them. funny how much difference a half a grain can make, seem to do the trick

I dont know alot about the ted nugent ammo as it was a curiosity purchase,,it does shoot well has a noticable recoil but not as bad as the white box winchester stuff, Im dont know what powder they use to load it but it does smell kinda bad..

October 19, 2012, 04:13 PM	#26
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	I can't think of any Unique loads that have maxed out accuracy for me in either .44's (Mag or Special). I have had some very excellent light loads of Bullseye, though. I'm guessing the ignition issue mentioned earlier is the fly in the ointment. Bullseye lights up earlier and faster. A magnum primer might complicate the issue by making enough gas to unseat the lightly crimped bullet before the Unique is really burning well. I would try a mild primer like a Federal 150 or a Wolf or Tula LP standard primer. Er775, Several suggestions: Find a way to identify each chamber in your cylinder. There may be a zero mark stamped into the ejector, or some other indicator your can find. If not, take a Magic Marker and put a temporary registration mark somewhere. Next, from your 20 remaining rounds, fire a cylinder full for fouling shots, and then fire a cylinder full as you did previously. Use a spotting scope or some binoculars and a piece of paper so you can record which chamber made which hole. Identify the chamber that threw the round closest to the center of the group. Next, fire a separate group of six onto a separate target with each round loaded only into the chamber that produced the middle hole in the first group. That means loading one in the chamber, shooting it, then opening the cylinder to eject the round and place the next one in the same chamber. If the group you get is tighter than the previous group that used all six chambers, you can see about how much improvement having your chambers reamed will produce. That's always the first step in accurizing a revolver anyway. But if the single-chamber group is no better than the first group, then you probably have the bore constriction issue. If the single-chamber group is somewhat better, but not great, you probably have some of both going on. This review of cleaners from a 2006 issue of Precision Shooting concludes that petroleum-based bore cleaning products like Break-Free don't clean carbon well. To get that done, they recommended Slip 2000's product that is currently called Carbon Killer (it used to have several names they've consolidated). When I got some they sold it as a gas cylinder and piston cleaner. It smells a bit like citrus based paint stripper, and the chemistry seems pretty harsh. I found it slightly etched Parkerizing when an extra long soak (several hours) was required on ancient and heavy carbon cake at the end of a Garand op-rod. I can also recommend you try Boretech C4 Carbon Remover. It works very well and is virtually odorless and not harsh on a finish. It came out after that article was written, so they never tried it. The Boretech stuff has good corrosion inhibitors and you can leave it in a bore indefinitely. If you want a CLP, try Gunzilla. It also attacks carbon well, but is just slower working than the other two products. I've had good luck leaving it sitting overnight or longer on old carbon. If you buy their little pump spray bottle and get it on the gun and in the bore at the range, while the carbon is still soft (it hardens over time), you'll be amazed how much more easily it comes off by the time you get it home. It leaves a lubricating film behind that doesn't attract dust. If you want a general purpose cleaning product that gets copper and lead as well as carbon, Boretech Eliminator, mentioned in the article, is the one I use for general purpose cleaning. It's carbon removal isn't as good as the separate Boretech Carbon Remover product, and its attack on copper isn't as rabid as, say, KG-12, but for a jack of all trades (except lubrication) cleaning product it is hard to beat. It's another I keep in a pump sprayer and apply to rifle bores at the range. By the time I get home, they're pretty much cleaned with a couple of fresh patches. Anyway, there are new and much faster cleaners now available. One thing you can do with BF CLP is shake the bottle well to suspend the Teflon, then mix a slurry of it with JB Bore Compound and put it on all the moving parts of your model 29 action like it were a grease, then close the gun back up and dryfire it double-action like this until you feel the JB wear out. This is a S&W armorer's school trick for smoothing up double-actions, in particular. The JB breaks down and polishes while the Teflon gets worked into the surface of the metal as a permanent lubrication. It does make the actions feel very smooth. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; October 21, 2012 at 01:54 PM. Reason: typo fix

October 19, 2012, 05:44 PM	#28
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have had great results in .41 Mag loads using AA#9. Yes the recoil is near to what the factory loads are, though there is much less flash, and muzzle flip to my point of perception. Oh and if you are going to use it for hunting. Instead of grouping. Try hanging up paper plates for targets. Shoot each one once. If all of the shots are in the non ribbed area it will do the job on any deer you put the sights behind the shoulder of. In the opening you said the first two were close then the group opened up. That tells me it is from one of three things. 1. Flinching (it happens to many of us with large bore mags after a few shots. The good news is when hunting you only will get one shot anyhow.) 2. Not crimped enough ( as has been mentioned.) 3. Barrel heat (wait at least 3 minutes between shots if the barrel feels warm. Though I have never had this problem with the single actions I use for hunting hogs. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

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October 19, 2012, 05:04 PM	#27
er775 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2011 Posts: 129	unclenick darn good post!!!! thanks

October 30, 2012, 04:43 PM	#29
er775 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2011 Posts: 129	ok went out today to re set some tree stands and took the 629 with me, I put a cylinder full into a target about 25 yrds away, all could fit in a 6 inch paper plate I`ll take it !!!!!! I ordered some of that Ted Nugent ammo online, 240 gr soft point,put a few of them down range as well just to see how they do, same results,all fit on the same 6 inch paper plate.. what did I do to improve my group???? I backed the charge down to 9.5 grns of unique instead of 10 and put just a bit heavier crimp on them. funny how much difference a half a grain can make, seem to do the trick I dont know alot about the ted nugent ammo as it was a curiosity purchase,,it does shoot well has a noticable recoil but not as bad as the white box winchester stuff, Im dont know what powder they use to load it but it does smell kinda bad..