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Old September 11, 2017, 07:06 AM   #1
OhioGuy
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High-value training with low round counts?

Over the past year I've been taking training as I'm able, and then trying my best to practice those skills as they're allowed at a typical range. Many ranges prohibit drawing from holsters, moving while shooting, and (some) shooting any faster than once per second. All liability stuff. But I try to make my training count.

This summer I took two classes at a tactical training range (outdoor) that were valuable, but boy do they burn through ammo! I think I shot 400+ at each class. And to practice those drills on my own, I'd probably go through that same amount! How many times can I run drills requiring 10 rapid shots at 5 different distances? Hmmm...once per box of ammo....

Or "Dot torture drills." Great practice! One box, maybe a few minutes of practice, and there went another $10-$12.

The list goes on.

I've become pretty proficient at hitting small targets at various ranges. I can shoot decent groups out to 15 yards. But when I pressed the speed, my aim went pretty wonky and I wasn't impressed with myself. That's kinda the point of the training...identify weakness...then improve...

I got the sense that many of the range's patrons are in the habit of running through 10's of thousands of rounds every year at this range. I have to afford other things, like food and water

So dry fire, laser trainers, and the like have been awesome for improving my aim and trigger control, but I can't think of any way around high round counts for improving my ability to fire rapidly.

Any suggestions? What do you guys do?

And, what skills do you think are most worth the investment of time and ammo? I guess it seems to me that being able to draw and fire two accurate shots fast, is more applicable to what I might one day encounter, than putting 10 shots through a 4" circle in 5 seconds. And, I can practice that drill many more times.

Last edited by OhioGuy; September 11, 2017 at 07:24 AM.
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Old September 11, 2017, 07:50 AM   #2
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Check out the ITarget System

https://www.itargetpro.com/

It uses your IPhone and a paper target with a laser shell. The shell fits in your chamber, and the laser goes off as the firing pin hits the Snap Cap laser shell.

The laser shell has to be in the chamber so there is no chance of accidently using a live round. You shoot at the target and the results are recorded on you I phone.

It has the Bullseye target for working on Fundamentals, and a Quick Draw mode for working on your speed.

I bought it on a whim, but thought it was just another gadgit but the silly thing works and you can use it any where at any distance.

Live fire still needs to be done.

As to ammo cost. You really need to consider reloading with cast bullets. Lead can be found anywhere for free if one searches.

With all the shooting you mention you should have a good supply of brass. So you only have to buy powder and primers. I shoot my 38/380/9mms for about half the cost of 22 ammo.

You mentioned the Dot Drill costing $10-12, try about $2.50 per 50 rounds if you were reloading with cast bullets.

Pair that up with the ITarget system and you can cut down on training cost quite a bit.
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Old September 11, 2017, 08:02 AM   #3
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And, what skills do you think are most worth the investment of time and ammo? I guess it seems to me that being able to draw and fire two accurate shots fast, is more applicable to what I might one day encounter, than putting 10 shots through a 4" circle in 5 seconds. And, I can practice that drill many more times.
It starts with training to "run the gun", and that's what those drills are for. I do not know of a way to do that effectively without a lot of live fire. But don't stop trying dry fire and Airsoft.

The basic shooting skills needed include stance, the draw, presentation, and rapidly shooting, with combat accuracy (thing upper chest at twelve feet) several rounds--say three to six--and clearing malfunctions.

That's what the drills that you you describe are for.

But for defensive skill, shooting--"running the gun--is only part of it. You will not have been planning to shoot. Your assailant will not just happen to place himself in front of you and stop at a given distance. There will be no signal. You will not know where the backstop is, and no one will have kept people out of your line of fire, either in front of the target or behind it, in advance.

You will have to observe, detect, recognize the threat (and the "good guys"), and react by drawing while moving.

Look into I.C.E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting Training, on the PDN tour or with a self-study kit; Try FoF, with simulations or with Airsoft if necessary; and if you can find an interactive digital simulator with a wide coverage angle, go to it and pay to use it.

Kraig's suggestions on hand loading and the iTarget system are excellent.
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Old September 11, 2017, 08:05 AM   #4
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I definitely have considered doing reloading, but it looks like the up-front equipment costs (to make them efficiently) and the time commitment are considerable. It's tough to find time to get to the range as it is. It is something I'd be interested in learning to do!

I've found several sources of reloaded ammo that sell closer to $7.50/box if ordered in bulk...still not $2.50, but no effort involved on my end

I need to make some friends who reload ammo Maybe I can pay them for materials and throw in some beer for the trouble!
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Old September 11, 2017, 10:12 AM   #5
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Reloading does cut the cost considerably, if you have the time. Choosing inexpensive cartridges such as 9mm also makes shooting a little cheaper. You can shoot bulk steel cased 9mm for 17c/shot but reloading brass cases can cut that cost even further.

I do think prioritizing your training makes a lot of sense from both an ammo and time perspective. I think you are correct to practice putting, one, two or as many as five shots quickly from the draw on target instead of rapidly firing ten rounds into a four inch circle. Maybe something like the Mozambique drill would be good.

You could buy some dummy rounds for practicing reloading or malfunction clearance but I don't know that those skills are important enough to spend many live rounds on learning.
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Old September 11, 2017, 10:29 AM   #6
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I think you are correct to practice putting, one, two or as many as five shots quickly from the draw on target instead of rapidly firing ten rounds into a four inch circle.
So do I.
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Old September 11, 2017, 11:44 AM   #7
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"...friends who reload ammo..." Technically not legal for them to load for you.
10 rapid shots will not beat one or 2 placed shots. Accuracy beats speed every time.
"...10 rapid shots at 5 different distances..." Is a waste of time except for the shooting games. If you're accosted by that many bad guys at once, you're in over your head. CCW does not mean you're going into combat.
The up-front equipment costs for reloading runs about $300, plus the bench(everybody overlooks the cost of the bench). Look into an RCBS Beginner's Kit. Gives you everything you need less dies and shell holder. Runs $288.99 at Cabela's. Comes with a No$ler manual, but buy a Lyman reloading manual as well. It's far more versatile than any powder or bullet makers book. Powder or bullet makers books only have data for their products too. As in No$ler doesn't sell cast bullets or SP pistol bullets. No 125 grain .357" bullet either. Hence no data in their manual for 'em.
Dry firing is your friend too. Lets you practice breathing, sight picture and trigger control without firing a shot. Door knobs at the end of a hall way makes good targets. No need for snap caps in a cf handgun, but they don't hurt either.
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Old September 11, 2017, 11:45 AM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
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Shooting rapidly is basically just not disturbing your index while pulling the trigger. So anything that lets you practice trigger control will pay off at the range when you practice rapid fire.

During slow fire you want to see that front sight going straight up and coming straight down.
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Old September 11, 2017, 12:40 PM   #9
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I need to make some friends who reload ammo Maybe I can pay them for materials and throw in some beer for the trouble!
Well....I reload but I (and I think most people) would not take you up on this. The liability is just too great.

It's a rewards/risk thing.

And if you offered to pay me more I'd become even more reluctant to do it. I would gleefully help you spend your money buying reloading equipment and show you how it works though.

P.S. Even though the best advice might be to start with a single stage press I suspect you shoot enough that you would want to start with a turret or a progressive press. Reloading is becoming a 'thing' and there are quite a few options out there and if you stick to handgun cartridges start up costs aren't really so bad.
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Old September 11, 2017, 05:14 PM   #10
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Thanks for the input! And I wasn't serious about having people load my ammo
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Old September 11, 2017, 10:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...friends who reload ammo..." Technically not legal for them to load for you.
I imagine its just technically not a good idea to have a friend load for you, but I wouldn't go so far as to say illegal. Just possibly legally ruinous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...10 rapid shots at 5 different distances..." Is a waste of time except for the shooting games. If you're accosted by that many bad guys at once, you're in over your head. CCW does not mean you're going into combat.
Also, I believe the OP was referring to a simple drill, not a scenario - very different things.

Suppose he's training for "shooting games"? (aptly put!)

As far as getting your most bang for your buck out of a drill, my go-to is a drill that involves the draw, 1 round, a slide-lock reload, and then ends with 1 or 2 more rounds.

You simply need your holstered pistol, 2 mags (one full and one empty) and 1 or 2 targets at a distance of your choice. Load and make the pistol ready then tac-mag reload the empty into your pistol and holster it. You will now have a pistol with 1 round in the chamber (and an empty magazine in the mag-well) in your holster and a nearly full magazine in your spare mag pouch.

Draw and fire, perform the slide-lock reload, and re-engage. Once one iteration of the drill is done, swap the empty mag into the pistol and holster and put the more full magazine back into your spare mag pouch. Then repeat the drill.

If I only have enough time for 50ish rounds, I'll use a few mags worth on this drill alone. It helps with the speed and fluidity of draw, initial engagement, reload and re-engagement - all with 2-3 rounds.
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Old September 12, 2017, 08:39 AM   #12
OhioGuy
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Also, I believe the OP was referring to a simple drill, not a scenario - very different things.

Suppose he's training for "shooting games"? (aptly put!)
Yes, the drill is supposed to develop recoil management and trigger control under rapid fire. The "full version" of it basically starts at X yards, and then has you fire 10 rounds into an 8" circle in X seconds. The version I did in the class was 5, 10 and 15 yards (30 rds). The instructor suggested that people get extra practice by putting some intermediate distances in there, and working through a box of 50 on a regular basis.

Dumping 10 rounds into a target in 5 seconds isn't a likely self-defense scenario. I can see the value of developing an instinctive sense of when the gun has reacquired its target during rapid fire. I guess my question would be, does running through 30-50 rounds, 10 at a time, develop that instinctive sense any better than running 2-3 rounds at a time?

I like the suggestion of drawing, shooting, reloading and shooting again, all with 2-3 rounds. It works drawing, targeting, firing, dropping the mag, reinserting a mag, working the slide, reacquiring grip, reacquiring sight picture, and hitting another target--on every repetition! I could do that 16+ times with a single box of ammo. Somehow that seems more valuable than extended bursts of rapid fire.

But then, there's a reason why he's an instructor and I'm not, so I clearly don't want to discount it

When he told me he's "probably run 70K rounds of ammo" through his two Glocks, my first thought was "maybe you shouldn't shoot so fast"
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Old September 13, 2017, 10:48 AM   #13
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I think being able to quickly put 3 rounds on target is a vital skill for anyone who carries a gun for self-defense. Engaging multiple targets is also important. Being able to draw quickly and do that requires training and practice. Being able to put 10 rounds quickly on a single target is a good thing, especially at first, but I will take 3 shots on two separate targets any day. Burning through hundreds of rounds per session can be counterproductive when fatigue or lack of focus is involved. Add two center mass and one in the head, or something like that to increase the challenge. Sometimes more is not better, it's just more.
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Old September 14, 2017, 08:25 AM   #14
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I like the suggestion of drawing, shooting, reloading and shooting again, all with 2-3 rounds.
I don't.

The problem is the risk the that drill will become ingrained in one's "muscle memory", and that one will the automatically fire 2-3 rounds at a charging opponent and then stop shooting, or at least pause, before the threat has been stopped.

There may be occasions in which that kind of reaction would suffice, but they are at the low end of the probability distribution.

I'm not aware of any reputable defensive shooting instructors who would recommend that.
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Old September 14, 2017, 09:05 AM   #15
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There are only a few major things that limit training: timing, money, and desire.

Step one is going to be figuring out which one limits you and how. Desire is an interesting one because in the end its desire that often limits time and money. You have things you would rather spend your time and money on. There are some people who have spare time and money but chose not to use it.

Be careful when considering your limits that you have identified them correctly. "I don't have time" is something I hear a lot when talking to people. Really? Take an inventory of how many hours you spent looking for something to watch on TV - not because you wanted to watch anything in particular but because you wanted to zone out and watch TV. "I don't have money" can result in a similar question involving luxury spending. I'm not going to fault this. I personally "don't have time" because there are things I prioritize over more firearm training.

Now let's make an assumption for a second that you have identified your limiting factor. You are going to spend X amount of time or X amount of money on firearm training. If that does not allow for high round count training there are various options out there that are better then nothing. Personally I am a fan of dry-firing though this is limited to equipment with "second strike" capability to be most useful. Even without it though going "through the movements" has some value. The value of using actual ammo is to decrease recoil sensitivity as well as the auditory and visual sensitivity related to gun shots. The other value? Feedback. Face it.. much of the time the reason we use live ammo is we want to see where our shots land. This is where at least some "live fire" is important. You have to have some and it cannot be forgotten entirely. If you doing something wrong in your dry firing and continue to "train" to do it wrong you will do it wrong when it counts. The saying "practice makes perfect" is not correct. PERFECT practice makes perfect. Imperfect practice... well it trains imperfection. As long as it does not entirely replace live fire many drills can be run through WITHOUT firing a shot and gain you at least some value.

Now, having rambled this far, I get to make one more point. Its easy to concentrate too much on firearm training. Getting instruction in and practicing very basic unarmed self defense is far more likely to be used then firearm training. Further many of the techniques learned will transfer over to weapon retention - something I have found to be lacking in a lot of firearm training.
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Old September 14, 2017, 02:38 PM   #16
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Not sure if this would even be applicable to run&gun/self defense/action shooting, but. I shoot Precision pistol (Bullseye) and during a training class that I took years ago, a Gunnery Sargent that was one of the instructors made the following comment.

"Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

He went on to say that while training, if you set up at the line, and put ten shots into the ten ring, you have just executed perfect practice. Pack up your gear and go home. You learn more by doing that, than you would spraying 100 shots all over the paper.

Perfect practice (training) can be done with minimal shots. Dry fire training can be done with zero shots.
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Old September 14, 2017, 03:23 PM   #17
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One more thought about "perfect practice." Perfection is an ideal that isn't obtainable, and is not really a useful standard. Three shots in a 5" circle from 10 yards, drawing and shooing rapid fire to simulate combat conditions, especially if repeatable, is "perfect" for me. That same group when shooting bullseye is not. Many don't like the term 'combat accuracy', but that is exactly what l am looking for when practicing defensive shooting.
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Old September 15, 2017, 07:40 AM   #18
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The key is coming up with a plan to improve a single skill. That plan will likely be a 50-100 plan to achieve a certain skill.

Also, focus on achieving at the highest level with your first shots. Also, create artificial ways to have more mag changes, more draws and more gun handling.

Also, spend time on transition and multiple shot skills.

I like the drills where you put 2 in the target body and transition to small target. I also like draw, shoot 3, mag change, shoot 3 more.

Last, spend time with speed transitions..shoot 2 into large target, then shoot one in a 2" target a 7 yds.
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Old September 15, 2017, 01:03 PM   #19
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One more thought about "perfect practice." Perfection is an ideal that isn't obtainable, and is not really a useful standard. Three shots in a 5" circle from 10 yards, drawing and shooing rapid fire to simulate combat conditions, especially if repeatable, is "perfect" for me. That same group when shooting bullseye is not. Many don't like the term 'combat accuracy', but that is exactly what l am looking for when practicing defensive shooting.
I think one of the best examples I can give is something I heard from a basketball player on the value of a coach. Let's say that you have decided you want to be a better shooter (basketball) and so you practice five hours a day for a solid week. The problem is if you are lacking a fundamental basic, or worse doing it wrong, you have just spent a lot of time practicing doing it wrong.

So however you want to define "right" is how you need to practice. Simply fooling around probably is not gaining you much.
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Old September 15, 2017, 05:05 PM   #20
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I agree Lohman. Learning and practicing good fundamentals are essential.

Tiny groups in combat shooting at the cost of speed is not good use of time or ammo. The other extreme, shooting faster than one is able to control, is not effective either. The point is "perfect" practice is dependent on what is being practiced for, and the skill level and objective of the one practicing. Unless "perfect" is defined individually it has little meaning.
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Old September 15, 2017, 06:32 PM   #21
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Its been decades ago,the memory is vague.
I recall reading of Ross Seifred.
He was in South Africa. Ammunition was extremely limited.
IIRC.round count for a practice session might only be 10 or 12 total.
He stressed that every one of the rounds went to "doing it right"
He then went to win some World Championship with his 1911.
Round count is not everything
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Old September 15, 2017, 06:58 PM   #22
OhioGuy
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Originally Posted by K_Mac View Post
I agree Lohman. Learning and practicing good fundamentals are essential.

Tiny groups in combat shooting at the cost of speed is not good use of time or ammo. The other extreme, shooting faster than one is able to control, is not effective either. The point is "perfect" practice is dependent on what is being practiced for, and the skill level and objective of the one practicing. Unless "perfect" is defined individually it has little meaning.
This gets to the meat of my question, really. All agree that training must focus on that mixture of speed and accuracy.

Now...will putting 10, 20, 50 rounds accurately into a 4" circle make you any better than 3 or 5 rounds?
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Old September 15, 2017, 08:14 PM   #23
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Now...will putting 10, 20, 50 rounds accurately into a 4" circle make you any better than 3 or 5 rounds?
I have no idea whyt they would concentrate on a four inch circle.

However, shooting a large number of rounds--not fifty , but maybe one thousand plus in a day or two--very quickly--is an exercise designed to improve one's ability to "run the gun" and fire rapidly in a self defense situation.

Shooting three or five rounds cannot so that.

I would use a torso sized steel plate.

But that is not self defense training. It is an exercise tto help a student learn to shoot.

Then. drawing while moving and shooting three to five shots rapidly comes into play.

Try a chest size target, at ten or fifteen feet.
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Old September 16, 2017, 12:12 AM   #24
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I find that practicing a variety of training drills saves me way more ammo than just going "target shooting"...

the DOT torture drill for example, doesn't have a PAR time. And for that matter any that do you don't always need to practice that way depending on your skill level or what you need out of it. A beginner shouldn't worry about par time on any drill IMO, but should practice them anyways.
Take your time.
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