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Old November 20, 2017, 09:57 PM   #51
jackstrawIII
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Since the intended target was listed as deer, I think the hunter should try to get closer.
I do not know anyone who has ever attempted (or would ever attempt) a 500 yard shot on a deer. Not that that's overly helpful for your question... so how about the 257 Weatherby Mag?
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Old November 21, 2017, 12:29 AM   #52
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Yup, the .257 would help, or the 7 mm Rem mag, or the .270 Winchester, or lots of others I suppose.
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Old November 21, 2017, 06:34 AM   #53
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I'm just another opinion.I really like my 257 R AI. I get over 3000 fps with the 115 gr Ballistic tip. That bullet has a BC of about .430.Not bad at the ranges I shoot.
IMO,with most 25 cal bullets that stabilize with the common 1 in 10 twist,I would not choose a 25 for extreme ranges.Better bullet choices are available in 6mm and 6.5 mm.The bullet folks just have not focused on the .25.

I don't aspire to shoot game at 600 yds.If I did,I'd probably look for a bullet of maybe a .550 plus,and a velocity of 2800 plus.And still,the OPTICS to do the job.
I don't care the bore or cartridge. The right .243 might be fine. So might a .338 Lapua.
In any case,you need to know the range and the wind.
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Old November 21, 2017, 11:13 AM   #54
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I've read and heard beaucoup talk about flat-shooting cartridges since the introduction of the 7mm Remington Magnum in 1962.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but it seems as though folks are trying to substitute technology for skill. Now, with laser range finders, "flatness" is much less important.

As far as "killability", I'm influenced by witnesses' stories about my father's kills at 500 yards. .30-06 sporterized Springfield. 6X scope. 150-grain Hornady Spire Points loaded to GI specs with 4895. MV of 2,700?

I've loaded my 26" '06 to around 3,100 with 150-grain bullets. With a laser, I'd have no fear of the effect of a hit at 500 yards. I've centered the plate at my own 500-yard target.

So, yeah, velocity is good. But it's not the be-all and end-all in hunting.
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Old November 21, 2017, 11:51 AM   #55
Don Fischer
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No cartridge is flat shooting at 500yds. A bullet that drops 20" below the line of sight is in no way flat shooting! There are people that make hit's at 500yds by pure luck that cannot do it again on the next shot and there are people that really understand how to shoot that do it on a regular basis. At some point the trajectory of the bullet fall's far enough below line of sight and it will shoot under the deer. At that point flat is not a good way to describe the cartridge. Now at 500yds one guy has a cartridge he needs to hold over x# inch's and another guy that has to hold over twice that. But, both hit the target because they understand how to shoot, neither cartridge would I consider flat. So looking for a cartridge you can regularly make good hit's at 500yds with? Doesn't exist unless the shooter's learn's to shoot at 500yds. Then the cartridge trajectory will make little difference!
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Old November 21, 2017, 11:54 AM   #56
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hill View Post
Yup, the .257 would help, or the 7 mm Rem mag, or the .270 Winchester, or lots of others I suppose.
The only thing that helps is learning to shoot at long range! Cartridge will pretty much make no difference.
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Old November 21, 2017, 04:25 PM   #57
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I agree with the last few posts.
The concept of "flat shooting rifle" does not go that far.
We have learned to range and correct.
A 175 gr 308 at <2700 fps will do just fine.

The 257 Weatherby was mentioned. The cartridge had its day.It was highly regarded in the days of pursuing the "flat shooting rifle"
It was also known for burning out barrels.
I'm not bashing anyone's beloved 257 Weatherby. I was merely making the point that if building a long range rifle is the plan,start by looking at the long range bullets available.Pick one based on your needs.
The bullet manufacturers have done more development on 6mm and 6.5 mm and not much for 25 cal.Most 25 cal rifles are twisted 1 in 10.
As much as I like my 257 AI,its great at the distances I hunt,I can't get a much better bullet than a 115 gr Ballistic tip at a BC of around .430.
In that respect,the .257 won't keep up with 6mm. The bullet companies and barrel companies answered the needs of 1000 yd shooters.
I can buy better long range 6mm and 6.5 mm bullets.And 7mm and 30 cal.

Agreed,nothing I know of "shoots flat"beyond about 400 yds. We have to adjust.

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Old November 27, 2017, 10:21 AM   #58
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Scorch and Don Fisher pretty much says it all. No rifle is flat shooting especially at 500 yrds. The moment a bullet leaves the barrel it starts to drop. That drop really isn't as much of a factor as , let's say, stability at velocity. I think I understand what you're asking though. Never compromise on accuracy. Above all else, accuracy is the most important consideration and sometimes the hardest to achieve. Obviously energy at PoI needs to be where you want it.
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Old November 28, 2017, 11:28 AM   #59
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There have been very few instances where the deer I really wanted to shoot was 500 yards away. Most have been under 350...perfect for my .270 Win, sighted 1.3" high at 100 yards. No holdover beyond the back, out to 350 yds, or a bit more.

We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.
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Old November 28, 2017, 11:30 AM   #60
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There have been very few instances where the deer I really wanted to shoot was 500 yards away. Most have been under 350...perfect for my .270 Win, sighted 1.3" high at 100 yards. No holdover beyond the back, out to 350 yds, or a bit more.

I've had good results with 130 grain Ballistic Tips...MV 3,200 fps. chronographed...from a 24" barrel.

We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.

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Old November 29, 2017, 12:53 PM   #61
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Dont discount the 243 Win.

Wife got this guy at 547 yards. Horn 100 gn. SPBT. One shot went about 3 ft. Home made rifle w/Model 70 Action.



6.5 CM is hard to beat. 665 yards, 143 gr. Hornady. DRT



The real difference is not the gun/bullet, but the fact we spend all summer playing on BLM property 2 miles from the house where we can shoot 2000+ yards.
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Old December 13, 2017, 10:47 AM   #62
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A 500u.s. hunting shot raises all kind of "ethics" questions to me. Just putting that out there. Lots of hang time.......
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Old December 13, 2017, 11:41 AM   #63
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A 500u.s. hunting shot raises all kind of "ethics" questions to me.
I suggest this would be better discussed in its own thread.

I'm not prepared to question the integrity of those who produce clean kills at ranges that I typically pass on.

"A man has got to know his limitations"

My limits may be different than your limits

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Old December 13, 2017, 12:24 PM   #64
Don Fischer
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I think a good way to determine how flat shooting a cartridge is would be to sight in your rifle how ever you do it then shoot a say an 8" paper plate, aiming at the center of the plate every time and see how far out you can center on the plate and still hit it. If you have 2 30-06's one sighted in to zero at 100 yds and the other for 3" high at the same distance, you'll find that even though they are both 30-06's and let's say they use the same bullet and velocity is about equal, long range for both will differ. Long after the first falls below point of aim, the other will continue on. Which one will be flattest shooting will depend on how you zero your rifle. If you have to raise your sight's to hit the target, your cartridge run's out of flatness and the ability of the shooter takes over!
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Old December 13, 2017, 01:09 PM   #65
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7mm STW

I think it was Troy800 on page 1 that mentioned 7mmSTW. I don't have any hunting experience with this cartridge myself, but I am well acquainted with a gentlemen who uses one regularly to kill caribou on flat plains land at 400-700 yds. At 500 yds you're generally maintaining 1500-2000 ft lbs of energy with less than 40" or drop. This, I think, is sufficient for an ethical shot IF you're confident in hitting where you aim.

With that said, I agree with the assertions that there is no hunting round that is shooting flat at 500 yds.

At that distance, if 500 yds is your zero, you're going to need to be well acquainted with your specific load's trajectory 100 yds closer and farther. That is just the nature of the beast.
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Old December 26, 2017, 11:13 PM   #66
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Yep, I was going to suggest the .257 Weatherby as well. Just be forewarned, they are barrel burners!
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Old December 26, 2017, 11:35 PM   #67
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Since the intended target was listed as deer, I think the hunter should try to get closer.
+1. It's a live animal, and prone to move ..... how far can it move in the time of flight for a shot that far? Even if the shooter does everything perfect- knows the trajectory reads the wind and holds or clicks up and over ..... has a rock solid rest and pulls off the perfect shot , the animal can easily take a step forward in less time than it takes for the bullet to get there ..... so unless it's sleeping (and then why could one not get closer?) 500 yard shots are foolish, leaving a good chance for a wounded and lost animal, which as ethical hunters, we try to avoid doing. Just my $.02 ......
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Old December 27, 2017, 12:07 PM   #68
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Took a heart shot on an antelope at 505 yards last year with my custom loads in my .300wby

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Old December 27, 2017, 12:53 PM   #69
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I do not know anyone who has ever attempted (or would ever attempt) a 500 yard shot on a deer.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but it seems as though folks are trying to substitute technology for skill.
I agree. Hitting at distance is not a deterministic event based on technology. It is based on skill. Range estimation is of course critical, but having shot at distances out to 1000 yards, I am very skeptical about those who think they are going to line up the sights, yank the trigger, and hit sometime way out there. The further you go out, the more little errors in sight alignment and trigger pull make the bullet go wide. And then, unless you have zero'd your rifle at that range, how do you where its zero is at that range?

Here, because I had previously zero'd this rifle at 300 yards, with a similiar load, I was very happy to get a pin wheel ring first shot at 300 yards. So at 200 and 300 yards, I have a lot of confidence in my hit probability. If the range was 350, not so confident. I could make estimates of elevation.



Here was an attempt to zero that rifle at 600 yards. There are about six shots off target. With even a 300 yard zero, that Burris scope was not exactly 4 clicks per MOA, it turns out, it is closer to 3 clicks per MOA, and, windage was slightly different.



Once in the ten ring, sure, if I knew the exact distance, yes, high probability of hitting the 12 ten ring at 600 yards.



Was doing it another day, with another load. But, I had a previous zero to work off and this group is shots 11 through 20. Sighters make a big difference in getting a group centered. Also, cracked case necks will fling bullets unpredictably. I am shooting up old ammunition I loaded up decades ago, before I learned that gunpowder deteriorates.



Composite group




For those who want to make consistent 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 yards shots, just how are you determining your zero at distance? Through books and ballistic calculators? Those might get you on a 16 foot by 16 foot target, but I have pulled targets at 600 and 1000 yards where the shooter on the line was hitting the berm, or targets to the left or right, based on book values. If the shooter hits the berm or a target, we can walk the bugger onto the black. If however, he is shooting so far above the target, that he is hitting nothing but air, it is going to be a long day in the pits. At one of the range I shoot, you get five sighter shots to hit the 1000 yard target and then we stop pulling. Target pullers got tired of 10-20 minute sighting periods where shooters did not hit the target once. Aggravates everyone. And yet, people think they are just going to show up with some book value for a zero, dial it in, regardless of wind conditions, and they are going to hit some animal. Well sometimes they do. We are not also seeing, the misses and lost animals.

Do you feel robbed? Robbed because your technology can't compensate for poor shooting skills, skills that you don't even know, you don't have? That's being so incompetent that you don't even know you are incompetent.

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