The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 13, 2017, 12:34 AM   #26
alex0535
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2012
Location: Georgia
Posts: 908
If you're a Smith then changing out barrels isn't as big deal...

6.5-300 weatherby will get a 140gr vld to 500 yard with a little over 20 inches of drop at 500 and hit with more energy than a .30-30 at point blank, still moving around 2500fps. It'll probably eat barrels, but for the hunter that wants flat trajectory over anything else, that's the person they had in mind for it.

http://www.weatherby.com/6-5-300-wby-mag.html
alex0535 is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 10:32 AM   #27
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
OK, looking for a rifle/cartridge that drops the lest at 500 yards.

So far I've check 25-06, 6.5mm RM, 270 WSM, 7mm WSM, 7mm Magnum, .300 WM, .300 WSM.

And so far the least drop seems to be 7mm WSM with 140 gr bullets (35 or so inches.) But there are few rifles now made in 7mm WSM!

Any other rounds that drop less?
I think you're approaching this flattest shooting 500 yard cartridge all wrong. My guess is you're sitting behind the computer and looking at individual web sites and their ammunition specifications, let me know if I'm wrong? If that is what you're doing realize what is posted on a manufacturers web site isn't always what you'll get in the real world.

I think you need to get on a ballistics web site like JBM and start plugging in numbers based on "Maximum Point Blank Zero" or MPBZ, if you do this you'll significantly flatten the trajectory of most cartridges. I like to zero a hunting rifle for a target of 6" as this gives me a better margin of error since most of what I hunt has a 10" vital zone or larger. You can actually set your target to whatever size you want, and that'll change your trajectory.

Take for example the .25-06 one of the cartridges you mentioned, lets say it shoots a 115 grain Nosler BT at 3000 fps. If you zero for MPBZ on a 6" target at 252 yards, you have a 295 yard range before the bullet drops 3" below line of sight. That means you have only 31" of drop at 500 yards.

An MPBZ depending on 130 grain bullet out of a .270 Win on a 6" target will get you to 29" at 500 yards. .270 WSM with the same 130 grain bullet will drop 23" at 500 with a MPBZ. Your 7mm WSM will get you to 22" of drop at 500 yards with a MPBZ on a 6" target and the .26 Nosler with 140 grain bullet will drop 19" at 500 yards.


I think if you do this it might change your outlook and what is important to you. You're looking at only 10" difference between the .26 Nosler and the .270 Win. Is it worth the extra cost to save a few inches on trajectory to go with a less common cartridge?
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 12:43 PM   #28
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 3,725
7mm Reminton Mag for me

Quote:
My personal choice is 7mm mag. Not the best but a great balance of drop, drift and manageable recoil
It would be hard to beat a 140gr Sierra BT at 3200 or a 154 Interbond at 3000 in a 26" barrel. You'll have to go with the large case, burning 20-30 grains more powder and a lot more recoil for 200-300 fps.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 01:44 PM   #29
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,257
There is no deer cartridge that is suitable at 500. All of 'em drop like bricks between 300 and 400. However, it's not the drop that matters. It's the remaining energy. None of 'em have enough. And the shooter's ability to hit the fabled 9" pie plate, every time, at that distance.
Reticles and turrets have nothing to do with it.
A .220 Swift with a 60 grain bullet, drops 30.9" at 500, but only has 586 ft-lbs of remaining energy.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 01:49 PM   #30
CalmerThanYou
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2017
Posts: 294
Get closer, you will feel better about your chances of a clean kill.
CalmerThanYou is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 02:42 PM   #31
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 4,453
Quote:
Get closer, you will feel better about your chances of a clean kill.
If I wanted 'closer' I have a Remington 700 XCR 7mm-08 and Marlin 338 Texan 30-30.

But I want to hunt from my brother-in-law's barn... hence 500 yards (or more.)


Quote:
"Maximum Point Blank Zero"
I don't need MPBZ. I have rifles that give me 300 yard MPBZ. I need a rifle I can zero for 500 and if the deer is 400 or 600 I don't have to hold over much.


Deaf
__________________
“To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 03:06 PM   #32
OzeanJaeger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2014
Posts: 301
Quote:
There is no deer cartridge that is suitable at 500. All of 'em drop like bricks between 300 and 400. However, it's not the drop that matters. It's the remaining energy. None of 'em have enough. And the shooter's ability to hit the fabled 9" pie plate, every time, at that distance.
Reticles and turrets have nothing to do with it.
A .220 Swift with a 60 grain bullet, drops 30.9" at 500, but only has 586 ft-lbs of remaining energy.
Totally agree. I was trying to answer the question he posed, and not the one I wanted to answer. The flattest shooting rifles are the ones with the most muzzle velocity, period. Suitable for medium sized game is another story, because the flattest are varmint rifles. Plenty of people kill deer with a .243 though, but now we're horse trading and balancing.

To me 500 yds is starting to be extreme range for flat shooting, because of the energy and penetration you cite. Flat shooting cartridges (marketed as varmint if store bought, except for 50 BMG) are not LR cartridges. They are medium and short range cartridges. My .220 Swift is 1-14 twist and the targets prove it doesn't have enough spin to stabilize a 60gr pill at high loadings. 50gr is still way to heavy and key-holes. The only load I've been able to get it to consistently shoot under a minute are those teeny-tiny 36gr Barnes spire points (pinch your fingers under the seater die), so the retained energy is miniscule @ 500 yds and the penetration would be nada. Two or three inches on a prairie dog happens to be plenty though!

Still shoots very flat! Just no power or penetration.
OzeanJaeger is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 03:07 PM   #33
Pathfinder45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2008
Posts: 2,536
Well then, I suggest that you forget about those trajectory charts that the ammo makers publish, and forget about any factory ammo. Just choose any caliber you fancy in a good rifle, and hand-load your ammo with premium components. Come up with a recipe that will give you the accuracy you need at a velocity you can live with, shoot it at all ranges and write your own trajectory chart. As much as you are likely to shoot this rifle, maybe you should consider a caliber that is expected to have a much longer barrel-life than the 257 Weatherby, 264 Winchester Magnum, and the like.
Pathfinder45 is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 03:35 PM   #34
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 5,923
It will take a little work on your part,but I can tell you where to find your answer,without the bias or unfounded opinions.
Do your own ballistic software work.
Thereare others,but on the Hornady site is a useable ballistic calculator,free.
Crunch your own numbers.

Given your situation,put some form of wind flag,sock,or other reference out.
Make up a nice range card .
With a known barn/fields arrangement, a .308 trajectory will work.
Certainly a Jarrett type 280 Ackley bean field rifle would be ideal.
But IMO,if you will be in a barn over a known field,pick an accurate rifle you have,maybe,and spend the money good quality scope with target knobs (and 10X is enough). Get a good laser rangefinder .Use it to build your range card. For some reason the dang things occasionally won't get a read at 300 yds when you are ranging a deer!!

They make some nice wind gauge/flags you could put out at 50 or 100 yds.

Out to 600 yds,25 yd ranging accuracy should do. You can do that with your card detail. Glassing your wind gauge will give you good,quick info.

With a .308 and 168 gr ballistic tips or a 7-08 with 150 gr Ballistic tips out of a1 MOA rifle,hitting the vitals from a bench in a barn should be (reasonably) duck soup.

Of course,flatter shooting cartridges may be an advantage,but I'd rather have good range and wind data with target grade adjustments.

Regardless where you draw the line of sight through a trajectory,I can't think of a cartridge that will not require correction from 400 to 600 yds. They are all accelerating toward earth at that point.
If I have good inputs,twisting in 5 MOA is not so different than twisting in 7.5 MOA.

For myself,in your setting,I'd choose the laser,good adjustable optics,and something for a wind read along with a detailed range card over some brand new high speed 6mm x 378 Weatherby .

But back to answering the question you asked,with many honorable mentions,a 7MM Rem mag with 162 gr Hornady SST's will do about as well as anything.

Last edited by HiBC; November 13, 2017 at 04:32 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 03:49 PM   #35
OzeanJaeger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2014
Posts: 301
That, or buy a 500 watt Co2 laser. They shoot flat, flat.
OzeanJaeger is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 04:23 PM   #36
Wrought
Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2016
Posts: 96
6.5x300 wetherby magnum? But theres really no need for it imo a range of calibers would get the job done adequately with a little patience and marksmanship. And lets not kid ourselves thats what the sport is all about not statistics and charts.
Wrought is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 07:08 PM   #37
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 4,374
This is what you want....
30 cal bullet for good selection of appropriate bullets
0.550 or better bc
Muzzle velocity 3000 fps-3100 fps


300 WSM
300 Win Mag

13-16 lb gun so you can hold it still.

Quality optic so you can dial it in.

Someone to carry your rest and someone to haul your rifle....a spotter/range finder/tracker would be a good fourth person to have along!
Nathan is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 08:14 PM   #38
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 6,947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
I don't need MPBZ. I have rifles that give me 300 yard MPBZ. I need a rifle I can zero for 500 and if the deer is 400 or 600 I don't have to hold over much.
Invest in a Tracking Point rifle then, because the cartridge you're seeking doesn't exist.
__________________
NRA Life Member

Last edited by taylorce1; November 13, 2017 at 11:31 PM.
taylorce1 is offline  
Old November 13, 2017, 11:59 PM   #39
SA1911
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
Hi Calmerthanyou,

You have it dialed in. When most hunters see far off big game, they will figure out how they're going to make a long shot. Wise hunters figure out how they're gonna close distance.
SA1911 is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 12:54 AM   #40
80viking
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2009
Location: The Peoples Republic of Massac
Posts: 331
7mm is the diameter that will give the best compromises of bc, sectional density, remaining energy, and manageable recoil.

My vote is for 7mm remington magnum.
80viking is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 10:45 AM   #41
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,006
I am in the process of building a 26 Nosler, but I doubt it will be any flatter than my 270 Roy shooting long Bergers.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 12:24 PM   #42
Mr. Hill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2015
Posts: 384
A .270 Winchester with 130 grain bullets would be my choice for that kind of deer hunting.
Mr. Hill is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 07:52 PM   #43
DukeMakedo
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2017
Posts: 2
What caliber to choose?

I have a similar question. Am a newbie. I want a rifle for deer, but also to play at shooting targets at long distance. Am teetering between getting a .308(all those bullet choices, but is more affected by plains wind); or .270 (shoots so flat, and carries a hard hit to plains distances, but maybe too damaging at distances of less than 150 yds), or 7mm-08( high BC, fun for targets, but factory ammo isn't at Wal-Mart). I like that .270 and .308 factory ammo is so easy to find.

Anyone have advice?

--And Thompson Center Arms has the Dimension rifle with easily swappable barrels. A person can get a .308 rifle, and then buy swappable barrels for 22-250, .243, or 7mm-08. For the newbie, that idea is tempting, if the rifle is good, and the barrels are rugged, and not too expensive to swap. Any opinions on the Thompson Dimension?
DukeMakedo is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 08:12 PM   #44
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,484
Duke, you probably need to start your own thread, rather than tag into this one.

As to your question, i’d probably get a 308 if you don’t reload. More ammo options.
603Country is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 08:30 PM   #45
BBarn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzeanJaeger View Post
The flattest shooting rifles are the ones with the most muzzle velocity, period. Suitable for medium sized game is another story, because the flattest are varmint rifles.
The external ballistics table I looked at doesn't support that claim. 22 Caliber bullets have relatively low ballistic coefficients (BC). As a result, the difference in drop between a 50 gr launched from a Swift at 4000 fps and a 140 gr launched at 3300 fps from a 7mm Mag (for example) is negligible (an inch or two at 500 yds). And other more powerful magnums with higher BCs will shoot even flatter.

Last edited by BBarn; November 18, 2017 at 08:40 PM.
BBarn is offline  
Old November 18, 2017, 10:59 PM   #46
Colorado Redneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2008
Location: Northeast Colorado
Posts: 1,594
26 Nosler and good scope & rangefinder

A 129 gr Nosler Long Range Accubond at 3100 fps should drop around 24 inches at 500 yards, depending on altitude, temp, humidity. A decent scope with repeatable elevation adjustments will easily set for a dead on hold, once ya get the hang of it. A bit of range time, or in your case you could practice at your brother-in-law's place, and you should do fine. You would probably really benefit from shooting prairie rats at long range with a similar set up in a 22-250. Amazing how hands on shooting live targets can improve shooting geared for deer hunting. I envy you, Deaf. I'm getting long in the tooth, so stumbling around the canyons and prickly pear is more taxing every year. Be fun to sit in a barn with a good bench, gun rest, binoculars, coffee, and wait for bambi. You lucky cuss.
Colorado Redneck is offline  
Old November 19, 2017, 12:07 AM   #47
saleen322
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2010
Posts: 714
As far back as in the 1960s when I was growing up, we watched a group that shot at the 1000 yard bench matches set up to hunt deer across a reservoir and they killed deer out to as far as 1400 yards. They would go to the same spot every year and set up. Since it was the same area, they had land marks to judge the distance and their target experience showed them how to dope the wind. We were kids and thought this was the neatest thing. The rifles as I recall included the aforementioned 6.5-300 Weatherby, the 7mm-300 Weatherby, 308 Norma Magnum and 30-338 Winchester Magnum. I am sure there were others but I can remember those 4. Good luck with your long range hunting.
saleen322 is offline  
Old November 20, 2017, 03:34 PM   #48
OzeanJaeger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2014
Posts: 301
Quote:
The external ballistics table I looked at doesn't support that claim. 22 Caliber bullets have relatively low ballistic coefficients (BC). As a result, the difference in drop between a 50 gr launched from a Swift at 4000 fps and a 140 gr launched at 3300 fps from a 7mm Mag (for example) is negligible (an inch or two at 500 yds). And other more powerful magnums with higher BCs will shoot even flatter.
"In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It is inversely proportional to the negative acceleration: a high number indicates a low negative acceleration--the drag on the projectile is small in proportion to its mass."

How could it not support that a smaller bullet has a lower mass, and therefore a lower BC? I'm not discounting shape and air restance, but that aspect is minor when comparing apples to apples bullet shapes with similar masses.

Which magnums are flatter? 7mm-08 is really flat. 7mm Rem Mag running a very light bullet is very flat (as you point out). 7mmSAUM is really flat. What's flatter? They're not the flattest out to 500 yds. The varminter cartridges are flatter. Then the magnums keep going, and the varmint cartridges dump speed and drop faster relative to distance from the muzzle.

To my point, the really flat shooting rifles have the highest muzzle velocity, at the expense of the bullets having low BC (because of lower mass mainly), and they decelerate much faster (because of a low BC), making them middlin' range rifles and not long range rifles, but at those middlin' ranges they are flatter shooting. A few inches may not be a ton in your estimation, but it's flatter (flattest). The point that they're not flatter is when their speed drops below those of the heavier and higher BC bullets, but because they're faster they've already covered more distance and the slower, higher BC bullet needs to catch up, so it's actually beyond that point where they're traveling at the same speed. If you start out 1,000 FPS faster you can afford to dump speed down range and still stay flatter out to middle distances. That's simply physics. All objects (bullets) drop at about the same rate, so the one covering more distance goes farther before dropping the same amount.


I can't tell what your disagreement is. Is it you don't like they way I describe it?
OzeanJaeger is offline  
Old November 20, 2017, 05:01 PM   #49
BBarn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2015
Posts: 575
My "disagreement" is with what I originally quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzeanJaeger View Post
The flattest shooting rifles are the ones with the most muzzle velocity, period. Suitable for medium sized game is another story, because the flattest are varmint rifles.
And I gave an example of why I believe your simple statements above are misleading.

22 Caliber bullets have BCs of about .25. Many big game bullets have much higher BCs, .5 or even higher, which means they shed velocity at a much slower rate.

So a 220 Swift launching a 50gr at 4000 fps sheds velocity much faster than a 7mm Mag launching a 140gr at 3300 fps. With both rifles zeroed at 300 yds, trajectory tables show the Swift and the 7mm Mag examples with nearly identical (within an inch or so) drops below the scope zero at 500 yds. And it's also interesting to note that at the 500 yard point, the 7mm bullets will be traveling nearly 300 fps faster than the 22 bullet, even though the 22 started out 700 fps faster.

So from a practical standpoint, the flattest shooting high power rifles suitable for deer have trajectories very comparable to the fast "varmint rifles".

No need to take my word for it, find a ballistic table and give it a look.
BBarn is offline  
Old November 20, 2017, 05:46 PM   #50
OzeanJaeger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2014
Posts: 301
I'm familiar with ballistics tables and reloading tables. I'm familiar with using a rifle to kill deer.

I can cherry pick a different comparison that makes the difference much more stark.

We don't disagree, and I don't care to argue with you just to argue.
OzeanJaeger is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15425 seconds with 8 queries