minimum VS maximum cartridge idealogy - Page 2

Hawg · December 6, 2016, 01:41 PM

I almost always take heart/lung shots but I'm perfectly capable of making behind the ear head shots even with a smoke pole. However I do not advocate it and I won't do it except in certain circumstances. It's too much room for error.

ZeroJunk · December 6, 2016, 04:01 PM

Yeah, they can move their head a lot faster than I can decide not to pull the trigger.

Guv · December 6, 2016, 04:14 PM

Many deer have had their jaw taken off on an error doing a head shot.

Gunplummer · December 6, 2016, 09:03 PM

I strongly suspect that the "Tried for a headshot and hit the jaw" stories you hear are usually as Art said, "Somewhere in the brown". My Buddy got a doe once that had a hoof shot off (Fresh). That was a hell of a shot if the guy was aiming there. An old guy we used to hunt with got a doe that had a hole shot in the one ear. I found a really nice 8 point dead with a hole through the main beam and various other holes in the body. The beam hole looked about like .270 or 7MM, so apparently the cartridge was way too light and fast for the job. I occasionally use a 30-30, but a lung hit deer will take off like it was never even hit. I would venture to guess that some of the dead deer I have found were good hits and the shooter never knew it. I spend a LOT of time looking things over after what seems to be a complete miss. I have been surprised more than once.

reynolds357 · December 6, 2016, 10:05 PM

Some days I want to use a tack hammer and some days I prefer a sledge hammer.

reynolds357 · December 6, 2016, 10:08 PM

I have only shot one deer in the head. About the time I pulled the trigger, he flopped his head back toward his shoulder. I hit him right in the head and shot the rack clean off of a nice 10 point. I cussed a while and then laughed my rear end off after the humor of it set in.

taylorce1 · December 8, 2016, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reynolds357

Some days I want to use a tack hammer and some days I prefer a sledge hammer.

+1

However, I'd say I've almost always been in the minimalist category. My first big game rifle was a .243 Win which in 1988 was pretty much considered a coyote rifle according to most gun magazines. I shot 105 grain Speer bullets out of it and pronghorn and deer just dropped.

When it came to my first elk hunt I borrowed a .30-06 with 180 grain Winchester PP bullets. However, when I bought my first "Elk Rifle" I purchased a .270 Win. Elk fell to 130 & 150 grain bullets just a easily as my first.

So I have a daughter who wanted to hunt at age 9, but she didn't handle recoil very well. So I took her hunting in Oklahoma and let her use her .223 Rem Stevens 200 nicknamed "Bruiser". She was successful with that rifle at the ages of 9 and 10, at 11 I moved her up to a .300 Savage shooting 125 Nosler BT but she wasn't anymore successful. The only reason I moved her up was that she can't use the .223 in Colorado to hunt deer.

I have been using a 6X47 (6mm-222 Rem Mag) to kill pronghorn and white tails for almost eight years now. I have also been using a varmint bullet to accomplish this. Over my limited years of hunting I've learned that shot presentation and bullet placement matter more than cartridge chosen. Bullet construction is important as well, but it is greatly dependent on the speed at which they leave the barrel at. This is why I can get away using a 70 grain varmint bullet and still be successful on deer and pronghorn.

samsmix · February 7, 2017, 09:09 AM

I'm catching this thread a little late, but I think that something has been left out.

Aside from the fact that deer vary greatly in size as one moves about the country, I think people in a cartridge debate frame of mind seem to forget how vastly the STYLE of hunting changes by location.

Here is the meat of this post:
Thus the reason Mike Irwin's 6.5x50 would be a GREAT cartridge in New England or other sub-200 yard tree stand hunting, while a '06, .270 or even 7mm Mag might be desirable in Montana and Wyoming as a one gun battery for everything from Pronghorn to Elk. Precise placement is awesome...but where I'm from we stalk more than we stand, and while a meat freezer doe might be passed over due to a suboptimal angle, a trophy buck might receive one of Elmer Keith's "raking shots" if the penetration is available. I've cussed the .233 here in Montana, but would likely gravitate to it in the south if it's legal.

None of these choices are wrong, but wrong cartridges for a given application certainly exist. Animal weight, size & bone and tissue structure, as well as hunting style and potential target angle need to be taken into consideration. Thus the reason a .338 250gr might be a better woods rifle for a steeply quartering away bull elk, but kill 'em "no deader" than a .270/130 does for the guy who shoots them broadside in a meadow. Who is right here? Both of them! Would I uncage a .270 130gr at a quartering bull that requires 4' of penetration? Heck no.

Style of hunting makes as much difference as game size and cartridge capabilities.

And a couple anecdotes:
I knew an 82 year old woman who hunts with a .300 mag...but she used a .222 mag while it was being worked on. She hunts with my Dad, who at 97 still uses a 7mm mag, not because he needs it for white tails in the brush, or pronghorn on the prairie, but because it carries the mail to 500 yards (and previously more!) that he is more than capable of shooting on Mulies and Elk...which could happen on any given whitetail hunt.
My daughter is at the other end of the spectrum. Her .257 is easier for her to carry and shoot, so she hunts Elk with it (120gr partition @2900), relying on good placement and living with the 300 yard practical limit (for Elk, she has killed antelope much farther).
I also met a fellow with a detached retina who takes Elk with a .223, basically "bow hunting" with a rifle until he can get a sub 100 yard head shot.

disseminator · February 10, 2017, 01:24 AM

Excellent points made in this thread.

There are many truly great calibers for all kinds of hunting and we are blessed to have so many great options to choose from.

I personally find 7mm08 to be the "best" for Deer hunting in my area of the state of Minnesota. If I was hunting over corn fields, I would favor my 7mmRM instead. I also use a 308 Win, and a 300WSM.

Use what your are good with, and make good kill shots so our food doesn't suffer.

Dunsouth · February 13, 2017, 12:27 PM

Great thread and a current topic of discussion with several folks I hunt with. Growing up in Indiana we have only ever hunted with shotgun and muzzle loaders. A few years ago PCR's came to be legal and a lot of guys jumped on the 44 magnum rifle as the new deer gun. Next came the 450, 458, and 50 calibers that can be shot from an AR. Hence guys have gone to AR's or bolt guns in these calibers. Last year a new rule made it legal to use several new to us calibers including 243, 300, 308, 30-06 and several others that are similar. This has stirred up some debate and thought around caliber choice. Growing up here a lot of guys think real men only shoot big bullets/slugs for deer. If it doesn't blow a giant hole in them it ain't good enough or ethical. Now, we all know that this is incorrect and that a 243 is a great round for deer. However, when shotgun is all you have known most of your life it can be odd to think of killing deer with a 243 if you don't understand the ballistics and shot placement. I came across a 300 blackout upper at a show and grabbed it for a good price. Now I will likely use this as my go to gun for my property in southern Indiana. It is really like bow hunting with a rifle as long shots are out of the questions in this particular terrain. Being a newb to these types rounds the idea I can kill deer with such a light and recoil free rifle is almost alien to me. I have carried a 10+ pound single shot slug gun for over 10 years. Even though I know the round is sufficient I admit to some uneasy feelings about using it. Just one of those things. Come fall I will hopefully get used to the idea and enjoy a new option for the deer woods.

reynolds357 · February 13, 2017, 08:24 PM

Talking about deer moving their head; I shot the rack off a nice trophy whitetail. I had me a nice bead drawn just behing the shoulder. Just as my finger had reached the point in the trigger pull that there was no turning back, I witnesses the deer start to throw his head back. Well,ling story short, I shot his rack off and then hit him in the lung. He was dead from the top of his head being peeled off, but definitely not what I intended to happen. There is no way I would intentionally shoot a deer in the head.

Gunplummer · February 14, 2017, 05:09 AM

I remember when the shotgun areas were started in SE PA. Wounded deer running all over the place. I used to check fox traps from my truck with binoculars and saw a LOT of wounded deer during the shotgun season. Most hunters just grabbed their favorite shotgun and went hunting. Not too bad anymore since guys started buying shotguns dedicated to slugs. Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

lefteye · February 15, 2017, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

Well, yes and no. Virtually all shotgun slugs will kill a deer but some are more accurate than others, i.e., a sabot slug is more accurate and, therefore, enables a hunter to humanely shoot a deer at longer ranges. Accuracy is also improved with a rifled barrel. And, of course, a sabot slug has a smaller diameter than a Foster slug.

Gunplummer · February 15, 2017, 05:01 PM

Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

lefteye · February 15, 2017, 08:58 PM

Why is your statement accurate? Certainly a hit with any slug at sufficient velocity in a vital location, i.e., heart, lungs or liver (or brain or far enough forward in the spine) will be kill a deer. A sabot slug is more accurate than a Foster lead slug at any range, and is probably at higher velocity at the same range than any Foster slug. Is a .410 Foster slug as lethal as a 12 gauge slug at 100 to 150 yards?

Edit: Simply repeating a statement doesn't explain the reasoning in support of the statement. Maybe I should have simply asked what do you mean by this statement:

Quote:

Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

**Mike Irwin** · February 16, 2017, 07:50 AM

"Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer."

OK, you've said that twice.

EXPLAIN your position.

Gunplummer · February 18, 2017, 06:50 PM

Lefteye just did. You have to hit the deer where it counts. There were no "Slug guns" when the shotgun only areas started in SE PA. The difference now is that the hunters are a little more educated about what it takes to use slugs. Take two identical 12 gage shotguns and put sights or a scope on one. What a difference. Actually fire a couple slugs before the season opens. What a difference. Mike, you are going to love this: I shoot deer with my .22 HiPower 99 Savage. I sometimes use a .223. I have used a 7.62x39 many times. I used to use a 6.5x50 a lot. My current slug gun is a 1930's H&R smooth tube with a scope on top. It will keep up with any sabot out to 50 yards and is still grouping good at 75 yards. After 75 yards, the groups start to open up, BUT I KNOW THAT. I have been called irresponsible for using lighter cartridges. Irresponsible is using the biggest, fastest, hardest hitting cartridge you can find and hoping it will cover for bad judgement or a bad shot.

ZeroJunk · February 18, 2017, 11:05 PM

I have never met this person who thinks a hard hitting cartridge is going to make up for a bad shot or poor judgment. But, there are millions of them apparently according to the internet.

As well as millions who suddenly become good shots and have good judgment if they use a 223 , according to the internet.

ShootistPRS · February 19, 2017, 04:51 PM

Kind of like that internet quote by Abe Lincoln where he said you can't always trust the information on the internet. (Knowing full well that it was more than 100 years after his death that the internet began)

Gunplummer · February 19, 2017, 06:49 PM

There is an internet statement, Zerojunk. There are people ON THIS FORUM that say a heavier cartridge is better just in case something goes wrong with your shot. The other classic statement is "What if you see the buck of a lifetime?" Being the internet expert, why don't you tell this forum why all the wounded deer were running around years ago. I can remember seeing 50 to 100 deer pass me the first day. By the third day, there were a lot of shot up deer running around. Very few people were using light caliber rifles in the 50's through the 80's. Just one time I would like an internet expert to stand up an tell me how all those deer were hit and lost using heavy caliber rifles.

Art Eatman · February 19, 2017, 07:50 PM

C'mon, gang. We don't need to push the outer limits on horrible examples.

ZeroJunk · February 19, 2017, 08:18 PM

Sort of reminds me of the fisherman who said he caught a 25 pound bass. The other fisherman said that he hung his line on something and swam down to see what it was. It was civil war ship and the lantern was still burning.

He said if you will take a few pounds off that bass I'll put the light out in that lantern.

hooligan1 · February 20, 2017, 10:18 AM

I believe "Proper Bullet put into Proper Place" has been my family's motto every since we started hunting.
I like taking deer with custom rifles Ive had built mostly, not because of the cartridge but its because I wanted to have a memory of doing such.
I currently have a build that when finished should be the one rifle that I can easily take multiple species of deer with, hopefully its as accurate as my 03a3, .270 win rifle.
BTW the new build is a 6.5 Creedmoor, and they currently make enough different hunting bullet types that Im positive I can find one that works on all species of deer.

Slamfire · February 20, 2017, 10:28 AM

Quote:

I have never met this person who thinks a hard hitting cartridge is going to make up for a bad shot or poor judgment. But, there are millions of them apparently according to the internet.

Millions have been made selling that concept. Maybe you missed the ad:

See, you can compensate for poor marksmanship skills by buying a bigger canon! And since it was in a Gun Magazine, it has to be true!

ZeroJunk · February 20, 2017, 10:39 AM

For $230 I hate I missed it.

I have hunted all over this country and Canada with a bunch of different people and I guess I just missed the ones who thought you could shoot anything anywhere with some magnum and be successful.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but it is completely overblown. Probably by the same people who were advocating magnums when the wind was blowing in that direction.

December 6, 2016, 04:14 PM	#28
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	Many deer have had their jaw taken off on an error doing a head shot. __________________ Walnut and Gloss Blue, mostly!

February 7, 2017, 09:09 AM	#33
samsmix Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2006 Location: Montana (Montucky?) Posts: 1,273	I'm catching this thread a little late, but I think that something has been left out. Aside from the fact that deer vary greatly in size as one moves about the country, I think people in a cartridge debate frame of mind seem to forget how vastly the STYLE of hunting changes by location. Here is the meat of this post: Thus the reason Mike Irwin's 6.5x50 would be a GREAT cartridge in New England or other sub-200 yard tree stand hunting, while a '06, .270 or even 7mm Mag might be desirable in Montana and Wyoming as a one gun battery for everything from Pronghorn to Elk. Precise placement is awesome...but where I'm from we stalk more than we stand, and while a meat freezer doe might be passed over due to a suboptimal angle, a trophy buck might receive one of Elmer Keith's "raking shots" if the penetration is available. I've cussed the .233 here in Montana, but would likely gravitate to it in the south if it's legal. None of these choices are wrong, but wrong cartridges for a given application certainly exist. Animal weight, size & bone and tissue structure, as well as hunting style and potential target angle need to be taken into consideration. Thus the reason a .338 250gr might be a better woods rifle for a steeply quartering away bull elk, but kill 'em "no deader" than a .270/130 does for the guy who shoots them broadside in a meadow. Who is right here? Both of them! Would I uncage a .270 130gr at a quartering bull that requires 4' of penetration? Heck no. Style of hunting makes as much difference as game size and cartridge capabilities. And a couple anecdotes: I knew an 82 year old woman who hunts with a .300 mag...but she used a .222 mag while it was being worked on. She hunts with my Dad, who at 97 still uses a 7mm mag, not because he needs it for white tails in the brush, or pronghorn on the prairie, but because it carries the mail to 500 yards (and previously more!) that he is more than capable of shooting on Mulies and Elk...which could happen on any given whitetail hunt. My daughter is at the other end of the spectrum. Her .257 is easier for her to carry and shoot, so she hunts Elk with it (120gr partition @2900), relying on good placement and living with the 300 yard practical limit (for Elk, she has killed antelope much farther). I also met a fellow with a detached retina who takes Elk with a .223, basically "bow hunting" with a rifle until he can get a sub 100 yard head shot. __________________ You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life. IF we're not supposed to eat animals, howcome God made 'em outta meat?

February 16, 2017, 07:50 AM	#41
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,383	"Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer." OK, you've said that twice. EXPLAIN your position. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 18, 2017, 06:50 PM	#42
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Lefteye just did. You have to hit the deer where it counts. There were no "Slug guns" when the shotgun only areas started in SE PA. The difference now is that the hunters are a little more educated about what it takes to use slugs. Take two identical 12 gage shotguns and put sights or a scope on one. What a difference. Actually fire a couple slugs before the season opens. What a difference. Mike, you are going to love this: I shoot deer with my .22 HiPower 99 Savage. I sometimes use a .223. I have used a 7.62x39 many times. I used to use a 6.5x50 a lot. My current slug gun is a 1930's H&R smooth tube with a scope on top. It will keep up with any sabot out to 50 yards and is still grouping good at 75 yards. After 75 yards, the groups start to open up, BUT I KNOW THAT. I have been called irresponsible for using lighter cartridges. Irresponsible is using the biggest, fastest, hardest hitting cartridge you can find and hoping it will cover for bad judgement or a bad shot. Last edited by Gunplummer; February 18, 2017 at 06:59 PM.

February 20, 2017, 10:18 AM	#48
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	I believe "Proper Bullet put into Proper Place" has been my family's motto every since we started hunting. I like taking deer with custom rifles Ive had built mostly, not because of the cartridge but its because I wanted to have a memory of doing such. I currently have a build that when finished should be the one rifle that I can easily take multiple species of deer with, hopefully its as accurate as my 03a3, .270 win rifle. BTW the new build is a 6.5 Creedmoor, and they currently make enough different hunting bullet types that Im positive I can find one that works on all species of deer. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

December 6, 2016, 01:41 PM	#26
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I almost always take heart/lung shots but I'm perfectly capable of making behind the ear head shots even with a smoke pole. However I do not advocate it and I won't do it except in certain circumstances. It's too much room for error.

December 6, 2016, 04:01 PM	#27
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Yeah, they can move their head a lot faster than I can decide not to pull the trigger.

December 6, 2016, 09:03 PM	#29
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I strongly suspect that the "Tried for a headshot and hit the jaw" stories you hear are usually as Art said, "Somewhere in the brown". My Buddy got a doe once that had a hoof shot off (Fresh). That was a hell of a shot if the guy was aiming there. An old guy we used to hunt with got a doe that had a hole shot in the one ear. I found a really nice 8 point dead with a hole through the main beam and various other holes in the body. The beam hole looked about like .270 or 7MM, so apparently the cartridge was way too light and fast for the job. I occasionally use a 30-30, but a lung hit deer will take off like it was never even hit. I would venture to guess that some of the dead deer I have found were good hits and the shooter never knew it. I spend a LOT of time looking things over after what seems to be a complete miss. I have been surprised more than once.

December 6, 2016, 10:05 PM	#30
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Some days I want to use a tack hammer and some days I prefer a sledge hammer.

December 6, 2016, 10:08 PM	#31
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I have only shot one deer in the head. About the time I pulled the trigger, he flopped his head back toward his shoulder. I hit him right in the head and shot the rack clean off of a nice 10 point. I cussed a while and then laughed my rear end off after the humor of it set in.

February 10, 2017, 01:24 AM	#34
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	Excellent points made in this thread. There are many truly great calibers for all kinds of hunting and we are blessed to have so many great options to choose from. I personally find 7mm08 to be the "best" for Deer hunting in my area of the state of Minnesota. If I was hunting over corn fields, I would favor my 7mmRM instead. I also use a 308 Win, and a 300WSM. Use what your are good with, and make good kill shots so our food doesn't suffer.

February 13, 2017, 12:27 PM	#35
Dunsouth Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2017 Posts: 14	Great thread and a current topic of discussion with several folks I hunt with. Growing up in Indiana we have only ever hunted with shotgun and muzzle loaders. A few years ago PCR's came to be legal and a lot of guys jumped on the 44 magnum rifle as the new deer gun. Next came the 450, 458, and 50 calibers that can be shot from an AR. Hence guys have gone to AR's or bolt guns in these calibers. Last year a new rule made it legal to use several new to us calibers including 243, 300, 308, 30-06 and several others that are similar. This has stirred up some debate and thought around caliber choice. Growing up here a lot of guys think real men only shoot big bullets/slugs for deer. If it doesn't blow a giant hole in them it ain't good enough or ethical. Now, we all know that this is incorrect and that a 243 is a great round for deer. However, when shotgun is all you have known most of your life it can be odd to think of killing deer with a 243 if you don't understand the ballistics and shot placement. I came across a 300 blackout upper at a show and grabbed it for a good price. Now I will likely use this as my go to gun for my property in southern Indiana. It is really like bow hunting with a rifle as long shots are out of the questions in this particular terrain. Being a newb to these types rounds the idea I can kill deer with such a light and recoil free rifle is almost alien to me. I have carried a 10+ pound single shot slug gun for over 10 years. Even though I know the round is sufficient I admit to some uneasy feelings about using it. Just one of those things. Come fall I will hopefully get used to the idea and enjoy a new option for the deer woods.

February 13, 2017, 08:24 PM	#36
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Talking about deer moving their head; I shot the rack off a nice trophy whitetail. I had me a nice bead drawn just behing the shoulder. Just as my finger had reached the point in the trigger pull that there was no turning back, I witnesses the deer start to throw his head back. Well,ling story short, I shot his rack off and then hit him in the lung. He was dead from the top of his head being peeled off, but definitely not what I intended to happen. There is no way I would intentionally shoot a deer in the head.

February 14, 2017, 05:09 AM	#37
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I remember when the shotgun areas were started in SE PA. Wounded deer running all over the place. I used to check fox traps from my truck with binoculars and saw a LOT of wounded deer during the shotgun season. Most hunters just grabbed their favorite shotgun and went hunting. Not too bad anymore since guys started buying shotguns dedicated to slugs. Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

February 15, 2017, 05:01 PM	#39
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Slug size has nothing to do with killing deer.

February 18, 2017, 11:05 PM	#43
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	I have never met this person who thinks a hard hitting cartridge is going to make up for a bad shot or poor judgment. But, there are millions of them apparently according to the internet. As well as millions who suddenly become good shots and have good judgment if they use a 223 , according to the internet.

February 19, 2017, 04:51 PM	#44
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	Kind of like that internet quote by Abe Lincoln where he said you can't always trust the information on the internet. (Knowing full well that it was more than 100 years after his death that the internet began)

February 19, 2017, 06:49 PM	#45
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	There is an internet statement, Zerojunk. There are people ON THIS FORUM that say a heavier cartridge is better just in case something goes wrong with your shot. The other classic statement is "What if you see the buck of a lifetime?" Being the internet expert, why don't you tell this forum why all the wounded deer were running around years ago. I can remember seeing 50 to 100 deer pass me the first day. By the third day, there were a lot of shot up deer running around. Very few people were using light caliber rifles in the 50's through the 80's. Just one time I would like an internet expert to stand up an tell me how all those deer were hit and lost using heavy caliber rifles.

February 19, 2017, 07:50 PM	#46
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	C'mon, gang. We don't need to push the outer limits on horrible examples.

February 19, 2017, 08:18 PM	#47
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Sort of reminds me of the fisherman who said he caught a 25 pound bass. The other fisherman said that he hung his line on something and swam down to see what it was. It was civil war ship and the lantern was still burning. He said if you will take a few pounds off that bass I'll put the light out in that lantern.

February 20, 2017, 10:39 AM	#50
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	For $230 I hate I missed it. I have hunted all over this country and Canada with a bunch of different people and I guess I just missed the ones who thought you could shoot anything anywhere with some magnum and be successful. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it is completely overblown. Probably by the same people who were advocating magnums when the wind was blowing in that direction.