Designing the Ultimate .22LR handgun!

22LongRifle · August 10, 2012, 04:34 PM

I'm putting together a .22LR handgun that is largely inspired by pocket sized .380ACP handguns. I want to create something that is reliable with cheap .22LR plinking ammo like Federal 550 bulk packs that you can just pick up at Walmart.

It will cost around $200 with 2 magazines. The frame, magazine, sights, and non essential components will be polymer. The slide will be aluminum. I will most likely just order short 3-4 inch rifled barrel, metal springs, extractor, and the firing pin assembly. I dread iron sights so I will design novak clone 3 dot sights as well.

If your interested in learning more I've posted many more details and pictures on my blog, along with pictures

I appreciate any comments on this new concept gun.

mete · August 10, 2012, 04:57 PM

This will be a 'blow back' action .All the recoil forces will be delt with by the recoil springs and slide weight. A lightweight slide will need heavier springs.

22LongRifle · August 10, 2012, 05:37 PM

Thanks Mete,

Since its .22LR and the focus is High Velocity (cheap bulk) ammunition wouldn't the recoil spring and slide both have to be somewhat light in order to increase felt recoil? I have a bersa .22 long rifle that has an extremely heavy steel slide with a light recoil spring. It functions just fine with higher quality ammo but jams with cheaper high velocity ammo (bulk might as well be called SV).

I'm hoping that a lighter aluminum slide and moderately tight spring would be perfect. I understand you need some tension to function correctly and I will recruit an engineer to make the final product specs.

TennJed · August 11, 2012, 03:05 AM

Cool, I would love to have a poly pocket sized .22lr. I guess the closest I can think of is the Taurus PLY .22.

Right now one of my grail guns is the little pocket Walther TPH

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_TPH

magmax · August 11, 2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

I will recruit an engineer to make the final product specs.

I suggest you consult an engineer early in order to save yourself time & frustration. It is primarily the mass of the slide that deals with the recoil forces. I doubt that you can use aluminum for the slide unless it has steel inserts, at least at the breech.
David

asm3686 · August 11, 2012, 07:28 AM

I have a ruger sr22 and it has an aluminum slide and it functions flawlessly with the cheaper bulk ammo and even some standard velocity stuff

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

loose_holster_dan · August 11, 2012, 07:39 AM

being an engineer myself, let me suggest you consult a gunsmith rather than an engineer. while an engineer can give you his opinion on any mechanical system based on concepts, experience is far more valuable. you want a specialist in the field you are investigating. i work on packaging equipment. you wouldn't ask me a question about bulldozers. a gunsmith with experience in 22s will be able to tell you what he has seen be more successful.

magmax · August 11, 2012, 07:48 AM

asm3686,
Is the breech face aluminum or is there a steel insert?
David

ballardw · August 12, 2012, 02:27 AM

And take a look at the feed system of the P30 Grendel or Kel-Tec PMR. If they can get 30 rounds of 22 WMR in full size pistol grip why not 20 or so in a pocket size frame 22 LR? The HP22 in a very small package has 10 rounds.

22LongRifle · August 12, 2012, 05:44 PM

ballardw, you hit the nail on the head. Its ridiculous that someone isn't designing high capacity .22LR magazines. Its very affordable to rapid fire .22 rimfire and quite fun actually.

I'm really trying to design something using ABS plastic like the Tec .22. I do not plan to use Ruger magazines because of reliability problems and will keep the magazine in the handle. The Bersa 22 magazine is a great design that allows a slight staggering for rimfire rounds.

Ideally when 3D printers become main stream you could download my polymer design blue prints and just print off your own gun parts at home

Chesster · August 12, 2012, 06:33 PM

Little over 30 years ago I bought one of these for a C note. Put about 350+ WW Wildcats through her before she jammed and required cleaning. The Iver Johnson TP 22 was a wonderful little rimfire and remarkably reliable. Good luck topping it.

22LongRifle · August 13, 2012, 12:24 AM

Your Iver Johnson is a beauty. I love Walther PP clones and have a Bersa .22 myself. The walther design is elegant but I just don't like the ergonomics for some reason. I'm designing a .22LR inspired by a RUGER LCP and SIG p238 (Colt Mustang)

I'm also going to try to use as much polymer on this gun as possible. It's going to be more plastic then the case it comes in=)

johnbt · August 13, 2012, 03:17 PM

Good advice to talk to an experienced designer. There's a reason .22 rimfire autoloaders are imfamously unreliable. The problem with .22 LR in stick mags always seems to end up being that the rim sticking out farther than the case wall throws the angle off in the mag and feeding suffers sooner or later. Even the 10-rounders have problems.

There's a pic of the rim interference at the top of this thread: "Why are .22 Pistol mags always 10rd? "

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/thr...ays-10rd/page4

John

power5 · August 13, 2012, 03:43 PM

Why not embrace the banana? Instead of making a plinker that also can serve as BUG, why not just make it a plinker. Make the grip and barrel standard length and then let the mag start to curl forward. Would look a little strange but many target pistols do. That would allow single stack high capacity. That alone would make it pretty desirable since only the keltec can shoot .22 with more than 10rnds in it. But those are more expensive .22mag.

But I would disassemble a Keltec mag and find out how they are the only ones to be able to make a straight, above 10rnd capacity, magazine.

Outdoorsman5 · August 14, 2012, 11:50 AM

To the OP, I'd buy one of those. Great idea.

aarondhgraham · August 14, 2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Its ridiculous that someone isn't designing high capacity .22LR magazines.

Internet lore says that it is because so many states had/have a 10 round mag limit,,,
No one wants to design a .22 pistol that can't be marketed everywhere.

Aarond

.

power5 · August 14, 2012, 07:09 PM

I don't buy that for a second. Every full size pistol is designed around the highest capacity magazine for its size. Then they are decapped for Commie states.

giaquir · August 14, 2012, 07:20 PM

I think that is one of the reasons
the .25acp is still around.
The 22lr can't meet the reliability
of the 25.

aarondhgraham · August 15, 2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

I don't buy that for a second
Every full size pistol is designed around the highest capacity magazine for its size.

Absolutely correct,,,
For full-sized pistols.

Ruger has made the statement they keep .22's to 10 round mags,,,
Specifically so they don't have to have two different manufacturing lines.

If they thought there was a viable market for hi-capacity rimfire pistols,,,
They would be making and selling them.

Aarond

.

johnbt · August 15, 2012, 01:07 PM

"I think that is one of the reasons
the .25acp is still around.
The 22lr can't meet the reliability
of the 25."

Precisely.

22LongRifle · August 15, 2012, 10:26 PM

I'm not sure this is a gun you would want to bet your life on as a serious BUG.

Its has multiple variables that hinder reliability

*chambered in .22LR (rimfire is one of the worst rounds to bet your life on)
*Polymer material ( I am going to try to design a gun that you can print the parts out at home using a 3D printer)
*High capacity magazines always sacrifice reliability in the long run. (Surefire makes great AR high capacity magazines but your going to pay for that quality; I'm going for value at the range)

Overall a high capacity plinker has a huge market. If you can print the parts out and assemble a gun yourself just as a project it would be a lot of fun. Also these guns would be great in a SHTF scenario where .22LR becomes everyone's favorite round based off value and weight. I am not encouraging anyone to start manufacturing these from their home. That would be a concern for the ATF agency.

DragonDog · August 16, 2012, 03:27 PM

I'd buy it, even 9 - 10 round mags, if it were in .22 WMR. Would be a nice little trail gun. Most revolvers in .22 mag are too big and heavy.

22LongRifle · August 21, 2012, 10:48 AM

.22WMR and .25ACP do not interest me at this point. The more I'm learning about ABS plastic the harder this project is appearing. I am confident in .22LR and really want this gun to be affordable.

I am most likely going to make a prototype that shoots .22 short just for saftey reasons and then work my way to .22LR. I want to create a plinker that is "built to last" and I'm not sure a .22WMR chambered gun would.

Keep in mind this project is just for a .22LR possibly in the future I'll look into other calibers but right now your best bet is an existing Kel Tec. I am actually planning a trip to shot show. It would be great to have something to show off.

August 10, 2012, 04:34 PM	#1
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	Designing the Ultimate .22LR handgun! I'm putting together a .22LR handgun that is largely inspired by pocket sized .380ACP handguns. I want to create something that is reliable with cheap .22LR plinking ammo like Federal 550 bulk packs that you can just pick up at Walmart. It will cost around $200 with 2 magazines. The frame, magazine, sights, and non essential components will be polymer. The slide will be aluminum. I will most likely just order short 3-4 inch rifled barrel, metal springs, extractor, and the firing pin assembly. I dread iron sights so I will design novak clone 3 dot sights as well. If your interested in learning more I've posted many more details and pictures on my blog, along with pictures I appreciate any comments on this new concept gun.

August 10, 2012, 04:57 PM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	This will be a 'blow back' action .All the recoil forces will be delt with by the recoil springs and slide weight. A lightweight slide will need heavier springs. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

August 10, 2012, 05:37 PM	#3
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	New 22 Thanks Mete, Since its .22LR and the focus is High Velocity (cheap bulk) ammunition wouldn't the recoil spring and slide both have to be somewhat light in order to increase felt recoil? I have a bersa .22 long rifle that has an extremely heavy steel slide with a light recoil spring. It functions just fine with higher quality ammo but jams with cheaper high velocity ammo (bulk might as well be called SV). I'm hoping that a lighter aluminum slide and moderately tight spring would be perfect. I understand you need some tension to function correctly and I will recruit an engineer to make the final product specs.

August 11, 2012, 03:05 AM	#4
TennJed Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2010 Posts: 1,536	Cool, I would love to have a poly pocket sized .22lr. I guess the closest I can think of is the Taurus PLY .22. Right now one of my grail guns is the little pocket Walther TPH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_TPH __________________ Find out just how tall I am By jumping in the middle of a river

August 11, 2012, 07:39 AM	#7
loose_holster_dan Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 2,461	being an engineer myself, let me suggest you consult a gunsmith rather than an engineer. while an engineer can give you his opinion on any mechanical system based on concepts, experience is far more valuable. you want a specialist in the field you are investigating. i work on packaging equipment. you wouldn't ask me a question about bulldozers. a gunsmith with experience in 22s will be able to tell you what he has seen be more successful. __________________ Favorite range gun for the money - CZ 75B or STI Spartan V 9mm Go-to carry setup - Walther PPS or PPQ in FIST kydex holster 1AK Favorite semi-auto design - HK P7 "A Sig is like a lightsaber - not as clumsy or random as a Glock."

August 11, 2012, 07:28 AM	#6
asm3686 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Carterville IL Posts: 115	I have a ruger sr22 and it has an aluminum slide and it functions flawlessly with the cheaper bulk ammo and even some standard velocity stuff Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

August 11, 2012, 07:48 AM	#8
magmax Member Join Date: July 17, 2012 Posts: 51	asm3686, Is the breech face aluminum or is there a steel insert? David

August 12, 2012, 02:27 AM	#9
ballardw Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 1,411	And take a look at the feed system of the P30 Grendel or Kel-Tec PMR. If they can get 30 rounds of 22 WMR in full size pistol grip why not 20 or so in a pocket size frame 22 LR? The HP22 in a very small package has 10 rounds. __________________ -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ All data is flawed, some just less so.

August 12, 2012, 05:44 PM	#10
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	ballardw, you hit the nail on the head. Its ridiculous that someone isn't designing high capacity .22LR magazines. Its very affordable to rapid fire .22 rimfire and quite fun actually. I'm really trying to design something using ABS plastic like the Tec .22. I do not plan to use Ruger magazines because of reliability problems and will keep the magazine in the handle. The Bersa 22 magazine is a great design that allows a slight staggering for rimfire rounds. Ideally when 3D printers become main stream you could download my polymer design blue prints and just print off your own gun parts at home

August 12, 2012, 06:33 PM	#11
Chesster Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Dixie Posts: 2,538	Little over 30 years ago I bought one of these for a C note. Put about 350+ WW Wildcats through her before she jammed and required cleaning. The Iver Johnson TP 22 was a wonderful little rimfire and remarkably reliable. Good luck topping it. __________________ Chesster Proud NDN "The American Idle" Vote 'Pro-Choice' on 2nd Amendment issues!!!

August 13, 2012, 12:24 AM	#12
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	Your Iver Johnson is a beauty. I love Walther PP clones and have a Bersa .22 myself. The walther design is elegant but I just don't like the ergonomics for some reason. I'm designing a .22LR inspired by a RUGER LCP and SIG p238 (Colt Mustang) I'm also going to try to use as much polymer on this gun as possible. It's going to be more plastic then the case it comes in=)

August 13, 2012, 03:17 PM	#13
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Good advice to talk to an experienced designer. There's a reason .22 rimfire autoloaders are imfamously unreliable. The problem with .22 LR in stick mags always seems to end up being that the rim sticking out farther than the case wall throws the angle off in the mag and feeding suffers sooner or later. Even the 10-rounders have problems. There's a pic of the rim interference at the top of this thread: "Why are .22 Pistol mags always 10rd? " http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/thr...ays-10rd/page4 John

August 13, 2012, 03:43 PM	#14
power5 Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2012 Posts: 247	Why not embrace the banana? Instead of making a plinker that also can serve as BUG, why not just make it a plinker. Make the grip and barrel standard length and then let the mag start to curl forward. Would look a little strange but many target pistols do. That would allow single stack high capacity. That alone would make it pretty desirable since only the keltec can shoot .22 with more than 10rnds in it. But those are more expensive .22mag. But I would disassemble a Keltec mag and find out how they are the only ones to be able to make a straight, above 10rnd capacity, magazine.

August 14, 2012, 11:50 AM	#15
Outdoorsman5 Member Join Date: July 6, 2011 Location: North GA Posts: 47	To the OP, I'd buy one of those. Great idea.

August 14, 2012, 07:09 PM	#17
power5 Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2012 Posts: 247	I don't buy that for a second. Every full size pistol is designed around the highest capacity magazine for its size. Then they are decapped for Commie states.

August 14, 2012, 07:20 PM	#18
giaquir Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Deerfield,New Hampshire Posts: 512	I think that is one of the reasons the .25acp is still around. The 22lr can't meet the reliability of the 25.

August 15, 2012, 01:07 PM	#20
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"I think that is one of the reasons the .25acp is still around. The 22lr can't meet the reliability of the 25." Precisely.

August 15, 2012, 10:26 PM	#21
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	I'm not sure this is a gun you would want to bet your life on as a serious BUG. Its has multiple variables that hinder reliability chambered in .22LR (rimfire is one of the worst rounds to bet your life on) Polymer material ( I am going to try to design a gun that you can print the parts out at home using a 3D printer) *High capacity magazines always sacrifice reliability in the long run. (Surefire makes great AR high capacity magazines but your going to pay for that quality; I'm going for value at the range) Overall a high capacity plinker has a huge market. If you can print the parts out and assemble a gun yourself just as a project it would be a lot of fun. Also these guns would be great in a SHTF scenario where .22LR becomes everyone's favorite round based off value and weight. I am not encouraging anyone to start manufacturing these from their home. That would be a concern for the ATF agency.

August 16, 2012, 03:27 PM	#22
DragonDog Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: The Silver State Posts: 144	I'd buy it, even 9 - 10 round mags, if it were in .22 WMR. Would be a nice little trail gun. Most revolvers in .22 mag are too big and heavy.

August 21, 2012, 10:48 AM	#23
22LongRifle Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 12	One thing at a time .22WMR and .25ACP do not interest me at this point. The more I'm learning about ABS plastic the harder this project is appearing. I am confident in .22LR and really want this gun to be affordable. I am most likely going to make a prototype that shoots .22 short just for saftey reasons and then work my way to .22LR. I want to create a plinker that is "built to last" and I'm not sure a .22WMR chambered gun would. Keep in mind this project is just for a .22LR possibly in the future I'll look into other calibers but right now your best bet is an existing Kel Tec. I am actually planning a trip to shot show. It would be great to have something to show off.