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Old April 12, 2009, 06:50 AM   #126
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Keep it up guys - I'm really enjoying this thread.
I'm done with it.
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Old April 12, 2009, 07:29 AM   #127
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George,

Yes, my error, I did attribute quotes to you that should have been addressed to "MacGille" - I ran through this quickly and admit my error.

You did say the following:

Quote:
RB do not usually fly at supersonic velocities. That is 1100+FPS. It took a while to get to 1100 FPS. We talk about remaining velocity of 500 FPS, NOW, but many arms of the era you are defending never attained "supersonic" velocities.
A mere 35gr charge of black powder in a rifle will launch a 0.490" PRB at supersonic velocity and a 110gr charge will easily push that same PRB above 2,100 fps - where are you getting your dis-information from?


I also asked you to explain:
Quote:
That is a quote from the book. NOW, IF you would even deign to think that a ball or a bullet COULD be less than PERFECTLY even at the exit of the muzzle, could you say that a less than perfect ball or bullet would NOT be driven hither or yon, IF it were NOT, absolutely perfectly flat when it DID exit the muzzle?
Again - how can you connect a quality problem with the rifle and/or projectile to making the broad-based statement you did that round balls are not accurate beyond 50 yards?


Another thing - you made the comment about accuracy of the smoothbore but never answered my question as to how you can reasonably draw a correlation between a loose-fitting paper cartridge battlefield load to a properly patched load.


Now you said:
Quote:
.45 ACP was 830 FPS, and one of our best people killers since 1911, when we adopted it.
We're talking smoothbore round ball here .... why are you bringing up the .45acp without even a remotely generated hint as to how you plan on connecting that to the smoothbore PRB topic?
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Old April 12, 2009, 08:52 AM   #128
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arrows have fletching to give them a spin. THAT art is a couple thousand years old.
Fletching is an art that is quite old. Fletching stabilizes the arrow, it does not necessarily impart spin. Arrows have an L/D ratio such that spin is unnecessary for stability; high rates of spin are indeed detrimental to accuracy.
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Old April 12, 2009, 11:48 PM   #129
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Fl,

I gotta call BS on you. You ain't sending a .490 ball downstream with 35 gr of BP over 1100 FPS

The 32-40, cartridge, 32 cal, 40 grs. was pushed at 1752 FPS. SMALL ball, light, large charge.

.45 ACP was from another thread, don't know how I posted it here, BUT, someone loaded a 1911 with BP. Shot it. How it cycled, I don't know.

"Again - how can you connect a quality problem with the rifle and/or projectile to making the broad-based statement you did that round balls are not accurate beyond 50 yards?"

That is self evident. Neither the rifle or the ball is perfect. YOU cannot expect perfection, BECAUSE tou have no perception of WHAT is imperfect.

You cannot deny that not all round ball are perfect. You MIGHT mark a balanced ball, much as a golfer buys them floater things to tell them what the least dense part of the ball is. Smack it here!

YOU don't know if you put a ball in the barrel if your preferred point of the ball actually DOES get rammed to the load. Did it rotate on the way down?

I don't know where all of you are. I'll bring a 30" Rem or Browning and try a smoothbore shoot with you. Punkin balls if necessary. Brennek or some other slugs preferred.

Cheers,

George

Oh, and I think they are 72 calibre, and they fly at about 1200 FPS. About 19 grains of Red Dot.
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Old April 13, 2009, 12:07 AM   #130
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More - We want more

How this went from a five year old thread questioning the safety of a certain manufacturers barrels to BP ballistics is beyond me; but it is entertaining.
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Old April 13, 2009, 06:40 AM   #131
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Yeah, about as entertaining as watching two three year olds fight over a pull toy. Are these guys really adults?
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Old April 13, 2009, 07:46 AM   #132
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mykeal

Yeah, about as entertaining as watching two three year olds fight over a pull toy. Are these guys really adults?
That's the attitude I and many other get for trying to put out valid and correct information?

Your ignorance shows in your imperiousness!

These forums are for the sharing of knowledge and experiences with others. However, it is the small minority such as yourself who make these contemptuous comments that serve only present your vacuous mind to the world.

You are not being forced to read anything here. If you're not interested in the discussion or cannot understand the manner in which a topic is discussed with the presentation of theories, facts and opinions from all sides; perhaps you should avoid these situations that make you publicly show your ineptness?
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Old April 13, 2009, 08:05 AM   #133
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To George and anyone else who is interested in the discussion of anything black powder / modern gun & accouterment related without having to endure the inane comments such as I addressed in my previous reply - please feel free to email me or come to my own forum linked below. I have spent more than 25 years and countless thousands of hours and dollars testing the old tried & true as well as developing new stuff and I am more than willing to share what I have learned and learn from others as well. I will occasionally address the infantile postings as I just did and I will continue to post here because I will not allow the ignorant minority to ruin the sport for everyone else!

http://members5.boardhost.com/insidetools/

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Old April 13, 2009, 08:22 AM   #134
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I quit posting on it because George's mind is set in concrete. He firmly believes the drivel he spouts. It's kinda like the old saying "never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it".
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Old April 13, 2009, 10:10 AM   #135
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the Sharing Of Knowledge
For instance:
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your Ignorance...contemptuous Comments...your Vacuous Mind
QED
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Old April 13, 2009, 10:22 PM   #136
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Fl-,

I liked your reply to MyKeal. I've been other places where someone doesn't like the thread and carps instead of ignoring it. If it isn't interesting, please DO ignore it.

I may come visit your site, though if it is strictly smoothbore, I might not find it all that apt for me.

I shoot strictly BP revolver, as of late, 8 of them as of today when a new to me Starr 1858 showed up in my mailbox. All my revolver spin the ball, all of them CAN hold under 3 inches at 25 yards if I can do my part, and I often do.

Well, I do shoot some 22 auto and my carry gun when I get to the range. Today was to be a shooting day, but sat waiting for the mailman and the Starr. So, tomorrow.

I googled smooth bore shoot results, smooth bore shoots, and all I came up with is this page. Before you decry it, read it through. [I know you will say it's all hog, or "hawg" wash, but it does seem to indicate that the smoothbore that the rifled Enfield and Springfields replaced were inferior AT rang. Close up with "buck and ball", better as a combat weapon.

Hawg might, if he is still reading, read the part that says that shooting practice was all but non-existent, due to lack of ammunition.

Best excerpt from the page is this: "Whether firing a Model 1863 muzzle-loader or a gas-operated M1, the average citizen cannot hit the proverbial bull in the behind with a bass fiddle. Training helps, but training in marksmanship was something woefully lacking in most commands during the Civil War. Little time or ammunition was allocated to actual range practice - and many recruits went into battle without having fired a single practice round. (Coggins 39) "

And: "Instead, the men knew how to load the weapons, how to maintain the weapons, and how to fire the weapons in theory, but they didn't know anything about them in actual combat. A case in point would have to be the 24th Michigan. ``We find that it was sent to the front within a very few weeks of its formation in July 1862, and in its only recorded target practice during that time three men were wounded and one died of a heart attack'' (Griffith 88). This would be the only target practice until four months later, which again wasn't followed up. It was only after Gettysburg where the unit suffered 80 percent casualties, that serious target practice was given the men. This lack of training demonstrates that the combat performance of the weapons was less than it could have been. A soldier who is inexperienced with his weapon can not use it to the fullest potential, reducing accuracy and effectiveness."

I'm sorry if this flies in the face of your claim that they all shot tons of target practice.

Read the whole piece before you jump on me. I'm only a naysayer when it comes to smoothbores being more accurate than they actually are. They were all we had for centuries. When improvement appeared, it behhooved them who depended on their weapons for life and sustenance to "upgrade".

This was probably tough to do on the income of the time.

As a hobby, I have no bone to pick with those of you who like smoothbores. I like rifled revolvers. You like smoothbore muskets.

Cheers,

George
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Old April 14, 2009, 09:41 PM   #137
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George,

Believe it or not, I'm not much of a smoothbore rifle shooter, actually I haven't owned one in many years now. Most of my smoothie work was with birdshot loads and the Tula chokes. Primarily I shoot rifled bores with both round ball and heavy bore-size conicals both bare and paper patched. Got a .45 x 36" x 1:18 just waiting to get my underhammer action done to mount it on and run some of my 530gr bullets through it.

I sent you an email too; if you don't get it, email me.

Mark
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Old April 14, 2009, 10:50 PM   #138
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Mark,

I don't really think I am going to buy a Whitworth. They're rather high in price.

I WOULD like to have a rifle in .36 or .40 cal. Possibly H&A, or some other underhammer, if there are any. Gets the cone and hammer and cap fragments out of your face. Not many of them with my C&Bers, but some.

Does anybody sell barrels or rifles with other than 1:48 or 1: 72 or whatever spin?

Then again, I may be best off with a cartridge gun, falling or rolling block, 38/55 neighborhood.

Not to refer to the above thread directly, but one of the best things Whitworth did was settle on a .451 cal. for the military rifle. Made it less punishing for the poor saps who had to shoot those .69 cal cannons. I think it about halved powder expenditure, too.

If any gun beats you too hard, you are not going to shoot it all that well. My BPs don't. My .357s don't. Depending on the load, my .44 mags DO!

Cheers,

George
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Old April 15, 2009, 01:45 PM   #139
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The truth about CVA

I spent the better part of the afternoon reading through all the posts on this site about the dangers of CVA. I also read posts that lashed out again Randy Wakeman. If you have read through those posts you might recognize my name. I am Erik Zenger and on November 4, 2001 I was hanging onto life by a thread after the CVA inline blackpowder rifle I was shooting exploded sending the bolt and spring mechanism back into the right side of my face. I have since had fourteen very painful surgeries to put the side of my face back together.

In the days following the accident I could not help but wondering what had gone wrong. I received the answer one evening a few days after the accident when I was contacted by a gentleman who stated that his son had been hurt just months prior by the same exact gun. He had heard about my accident on the news and said he immediately knew that it had to be the same gun. Over the next couple of weeks I spoke with him extensively about the guns and why the failures were occurring. It turns out that there had been a recall on the guns that were manufactured in the years of 1995 and 1996. I purchased my gun in 1999, two years after the recall occurred, from a sporting goods store in my town.

I decided to retain an attorney to try to get my mounting medical expenses covered. Over the next two years I learned a great deal about CVA guns and their poor safety record. I was made aware of others who had been injured by CVA guns, and was deposed in other cases against CVA that were preparing to go to trial. It was a long, arduous two year process of preparing for litigation. In the end I decided to settle the case with CVA and Dikar (the Spanish company that manufactures the barrels). This was after they tried to accuse me abusing the gun, using the wrong amount of black powder and even using smokeless powder. In the end it was proven that I had used the gun exactly how it was intended and I had done nothing wrong. I settled because I was tired, tired of dealing with blatant dishonesty and arrogance of Robert Hickey and his thug attorneys and tired of them trying to discredit me. I was ready to get on with my life.

Since the accident I have been made aware of, and contacted by, a growing number of victims of these poorly manufactured rifles. Up until just recently, none of the cases went to trial. CVA was quick to get out and settle the cases to prevent public knowledge through media attention that would have ensued if one went to trial. It also spared them from having to disclose information about the flawed manufacturing process of the guns.

Late last year I was subpoenaed to testify in the first CVA related injury case to go to trial. I sat there through testimony given by the Dikar representative from Spain. I was shocked and sickened by the disclosures he made while under oath about the manufacturing and testing procedures of all CVA/Dikar guns. The most shocking revelation of all was that ALL CVA rifles have a proof stamp on them indicating that they have been test fired under stress at a licensed proof house. Each proof house has a “proofmark” that is specific to them. Dikar, without permission from the local proof house, has duplicated their proofmark and apply it to every gun barrel they make, even though the gun has never been proof tested at all. I find it interesting that Europe will not allow the sales of CVA rifles as they are too dangerous, but we allow them to be sold in our country.

Where I don’t know the exact number of people injured by the faulty CVA rifles, I do know for certain of at least 53 cases and these are only the cases which were filed in Federal courts and does not include cases filed in district courts or the individuals that settled directly with CVA without ever filing a case. I have heard from very reliable sources that the number of injured actually reaches the hundreds, and not only includes guns from the 1997 recall, but also guns made and sold in the past couple of years.

The bottom line is that ALL CVA rifles are poorly manufactured and dangerous. I wish I would have come across information like Randy Wakeman is providing prior to my accident warning about the dangers of CVA guns. I hope that I would have believed him, and I hope I would have never shot my rifle again. It would have changed everything. As it is, I did shoot my gun, it did explode, and my face continues to be disfigured, and I still, eight years later, wake up at night having nightmares of being pronounced dead at the rifle range.

It is my opinion that a great deal of dangerous rhetoric abounds on this site. The argument that “I have a CVA gun, and I have never had a problem with it” is ridiculous. The numbers prove that they are not safe guns, and the fact that your particular gun has not failed yet, means nothing. Even worse are the comments made by CVA employees, assuring us that their product is “completely safe.” Very reminiscent of the Ford Company saying the Pinto was safe. But the great thing is that all of you have your freedom to choose what you will believe about CVA. In my mind shooting a CVA rifle is much like playing Russian roulette….you never know if it will be you who ends up spending years recovering from injuries sustained from one of their faulty guns. I would hope that those who do not believe Randy Wakeman, would change your minds. I would also hope that those who own a CVA rifle would never shoot it again. There are so many great options out there of guns which have truly been proof tested and which DO NOT have a long history of disfiguring people’s faces and ruining their lives. Why not choose one of those guns?

If you would like some unbiased, factual information about the law suits filed against CVA you can go to www.cvaguncases.com. This is a website being put together by Dean Wise, a private investigator who has collected a great deal of information about CVA and their manufacturing practices as well as an initial list of people hurt by CVA guns.

The x-ray found on his home page is of me and was taken minutes after my CVA Prohunter inline black powder rifle exploded projecting the bolt and spring deep into my face.

Last edited by ezenger; April 15, 2009 at 03:12 PM.
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Old April 15, 2009, 02:37 PM   #140
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no comment.
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Old April 15, 2009, 04:42 PM   #141
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That is the thing about the internet. Annonimity. Are you really who you say you are? We don't know.

What I do know is that this does not really pass the smell test.

Why?

1st. If the case was so good, why settle? Why cave in if it was that good a case for you and against CVA. Settling does not mean that it was proved that a proper load was used in the gun. Settling means that the case is over without fault being proved at all. Legally, that's the bottom line.

2nd. The website - under construction? If this was something that had been going on for years, why is the website under construction.

3rd. Unbiased website? I didn't see anything unbiased about it. Pretty much a one-sided thing that smacked of an ambulance chaser. A bunch of names, for sure, but anybody can put a bunch of names down.

4th. Photoshopping is too prevalent nowadays to say that is a true and correct x-ray. I'm looking for cracked bone and teeth and not seeing it. Click on the photo and it does not enlarge. That might help to show it was not photoshopped if we could see details, but we don't.

5th. No other x-rays. Why only one if so many were injured?

No, to me this sounds too much like somebody is pulling our collective leg here. Again, he could be who he says he is, but it s just as possible that the writer is not.

The Doc is out now.
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Old April 15, 2009, 05:38 PM   #142
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Rediculous

I have to admit that I wondered how people would respond to my post. But I never imagined your senseless argument would be one of them. The answer to your question is simple.....I have nothing to gain by taking the time to write that lengthy post. Anonymity? I posted my name. Try googling it. you will see story after story of my accident. Better yet, if you really question if I am who I say I am, feel free to contact me by email and we can talk on the phone. I can send you picture after picture of my face before, during and after the surgery to remove the bolt. I can also send you multiple xrays and 50 or more MRI images. But I venture to guess that you will not email nor will we talk on the phone. You are the one hiding behind anonymity. What I would say to you is to be careful what you write....you might just dissuade someone from believing the truth about CVA and they might be the next victim. Do you want that on your conscience?

Last edited by ezenger; April 15, 2009 at 05:43 PM.
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Old April 15, 2009, 05:46 PM   #143
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My cop friends ask me how I could sleep at night being a defense lawyer. I told them that after I found out I had sleep apthnea and got one of those machines, I slept fine.

It's the same thing here. I'll sleep fine since I do not know if you are really the person you say you are.

If you are who you say you are, you do not strengthen your argument by calling my response senseless.

In fact, it does make perfect sense, since, for all I know, you could be Wakeman here. I never met the guy. I don't know what he sounds like in person, so even if I was to call you, how do I know it is you, unless I see a driver's license, etc... As I said, this internet is a great thing for staying annonymous.

The Doc is out now.

PS, I googled the name Erik Zenger. Came up with some short articles, one by Chuck Hawks, but nothing stating you really are who you say you are. Sorry, that's the way it is.
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Old April 15, 2009, 05:57 PM   #144
ezenger
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What do I have to gain?

Well, again you just have to question my motive. Why would I take the time to post this? I have nothing to gain. I am sorry that you don't think that i am who I say I am, but I am not going to let that dissuade me in my attempts to get the truth out there. If it truly matters to you, I am certain there are ways I could prove to you who I am....If it doesn't, then there is nothing I can do about it.

Thanks for taking time to respond.
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Old April 15, 2009, 06:34 PM   #145
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Well Mr ezenger , I for one believe you , had a friend that had a 50 CVA POS and it flower potted (end of barrel split wide open)
I for one would not stand next to one of those things going off , fact.
And I understand settling , the sharks (lawyers) wear you down,happened to me in 85 when a high school kid ran over me and broke my back.
and I don't hide behind a fake name , I am
Jeffrey Noyes
7325 parrot dr
Port Richey FL
727-849-1937
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Old April 15, 2009, 06:52 PM   #146
ezenger
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Thanks

Thank you Mr. Noyes. Perhaps posting my contact information on here will lend credence to what I have written. If anyone would like to contact me, feel free.
Erik S. Zenger
PO Box 2101
Orem, Utah 84059
801 362 3000
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Old April 15, 2009, 07:27 PM   #147
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a barrel splitting at the end means where was something pluging the end, like a bullet not pushed down, or mud stuck in the barrel.
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Old April 15, 2009, 07:34 PM   #148
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Nope Mr FrontierGander just very pour quality , was rite there , it split from end to almost the breach , was in the morn , first shooting , clean gun , normal load , round ball.
You could not give me a CVA.
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:35 PM   #149
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And DrLaw as you say a lot of us are fakes , how about posting your name and firm? or is that fake.
This is me , old Nam vet.


I'm sure you can read service connected
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Old April 15, 2009, 08:52 PM   #150
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Who am I?

No, I am going to make you work at it.

I like to have fun on these forums. I have seen people do the old bait thing, putting out false threads to see who will jump on them. Skeptic? You betchya.

Frankly, Pappy, that could or could not be you. You see, anybody can post anything on these forums.

I have slightly over 300 some posts on these threads here, and have also been on The Firing Line and Surplusrifle.com's forum. As I said, I am going to make you work at it. There is enough out there in those forums to figure out who I am, where I am, and, if googled when you figure out the town and one other pertinent thing, you will find me. I've checked on that. In fact, I have fun checking on that from time to time. I can also be found using my real name on rr-fallenflags.org, since I am also a railfan.

The thing is that my guns I want secure. I don't give out my name willy-nilly.
Sorry, I just like to be secure.

And the fun part is, that you can believe that or not, and it will not bother me.

The Doc is out now.

PS, I printed out your card, ran it through a bar code reader at the local Wally World, and it said that you were $49.95, metal folding chair.

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