The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 30, 2014, 03:15 PM   #26
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
I lack the tools and can't really afford to buy them.
All you need is a nylon bushing or even a socket that is close to 0.40" A 10mm socket works.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 03:28 PM   #27
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
All you need is a nylon bushing or even a socket that is close to 0.40" A 10mm socket works.
I think I was unclear.
That bit I can afford!!

However, as I understand it I am setting the shoulder back by 2 thousandths in relation to the chamber. In order to do that I therefore need to chamber's headspace to know what I'd be taking 0.002" from , IYKWIM.

And to do that, I either need a headspace go-gauge (no have, can't afford) or a case that has been stretched to fill the chamber's every nook and cranny (have, and free).

I am hoping that those stretched cases will be like a mold of my chamber, giving me a more accurate idea of the case length I should be aiming for.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 03:57 PM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
What does headspace do for a rifle, round, die setup, case stretch and head s...

You've got the tools for that already too.

Set your die so it doesn't bump the shoulder but instead makes it longer, which it will do by the very laws of physics if it doesn't touch the shoulder.

Set it so it adds a couple thou, see how it chambers. When you start feeling the slightest resistance you are very close to exact chamber size. Set the shoulder back 0.001-2 from there. See how it chambers. Adjust as necessary.

Viola.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:03 PM   #29
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Good advise, Brian.

Maximum, safe loads typcially end up making fired bottleneck case headspace about .001" short of chamber headspace. While the case expands to exact chamber dimensions at peak pressure, they shrink back a little. Body diameters may well be .002" smaller than chamber body ones but their headspace is only about .001" shorter than chamber headspace.

So, setting fired case headspace back a thousandth or two is just fine.

I think when extending the shoulder on a fired case to where the bolt binds only the slightest amount, that case is at chamber headspace plus a small fraction of one thousandth inch. Otherwise, the slight binding caused by microscopic shoulder pushback by the chamber shoulder would not be felt.

Details, details, maybe we don't need all these details. But they facinate me in that us humans can actually sense the difference in how the bolt closes on them.

Unclenick made these labels to put on die lock rings so you can easily change the height of the die in very small amounts:

http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jep...ent-1.jpg.html

I printed mine on sticky back label paper so they would stick handily on the lock ring. Used the .002" stepped ones as shown below.


Last edited by Bart B.; May 30, 2014 at 04:44 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:05 PM   #30
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Set your die so it doesn't bump the shoulder but instead makes it longer, which it will do by the very laws of physics if it doesn't touch the shoulder.
To do that I presumably turn the die out from the holder?

Just to put you in my shoes as far as my level of die adjustment goes. For pistols and rifles I can adjust bullet depth, for pistol I can adjust crimp too (don't need it for rifles so far).

Aside from those, that is it.

I have never really touched the full-length die since I followed the instructions supplied by Lee. I have zero knowledge or practice in playing around with sizing die set-up.
In fact, until this thread I didn't even realise there was a need to nor scope for making other adjustments, hence why I am double-checking now.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:30 PM   #31
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Yes, you do that by unscrewing the die.

You don't need much. The die threads are 14 threads per inch, which means that it takes 14 turns to move it an inch or 1 turn is .07143"

I can't say for sure, but I'd guess you need no more than 1/10th turn out.

Be very careful turning back in. Checking the gap between the shell holder and die with feeler gauges is best but trial and error works. Remember, it only takes 1/70th of a turn to move it 0.001.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:41 PM   #32
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Yes, you do that by unscrewing the die.

You don't need much. The die threads are 14 threads per inch, which means that it takes 14 turns to move it an inch or 1 turn is .07143"

I can't say for sure, but I'd guess you need no more than 1/10th turn out.

Be very careful turning back in. Checking the gap between the shell holder and die with feeler gauges is best but trial and error works. Remember, it only takes 1/70th of a turn to move it 0.001.
Just what I needed to know.
However, running to the garage down the road, sizing a case, running back home, chambering it, back to the garage, 1/70th of a turn and repeat sounds like a massive headache.

I think this is a job for that Lee hand press I ordered.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:46 PM   #33
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
James, or take the rifle to the garage.

Did you see my posts on using nylon bushings and a caliper to measure case headspace when adjusting dies to bump shoulders back a small amount?
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 04:56 PM   #34
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
James, or take the rifle to the garage.
I could, but I don't like to advertise that I own guns. I try to be very discreet when loading up for a range trip, so walking down the road with a rifle case would probably blow my cover, especially as I don't know the Estonian for "it's my tactical pool cue"

Quote:
Did you see my posts on using nylon bushings and a caliper to measure case headspace when adjusting dies to bump shoulders back a small amount?
I did. That bit is easy, I just need to get organised and go to a few bolt and fixing stockists to find a metric equivalent, or I can just find a block or nylon and drill it out.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 05:05 PM   #35
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
Quote:
take the rifle to the garage.
LOL

I was thinking the same thing but figured there must be a reason he does not want to take it down there . I know here on the left coast if people see a gun they freak . My buddy last year came over and brought a rifle with him . He did not have it cased and one of my neighbors was walking there dog as he walked right by them on the way to my door Needless to say I noticed them from that point foreword always giving me a second look or a longer glance . It has gotten better most likely because there was not a big shoot out like I'm sure they thought was coming .

I to load my truck/car in the back driveway area far from on lookers . There is no need to advertise what I have or do .

Funny story , My front door is no more then 15' from the main side walk of a very busy street across from a school . A few months ago I came home to find my gun powder oder had been delivered . There it was sitting on my front steps in all its glory . Written all over the box was DANGER , HAZARDOUS MATERIAL , SMOKELESS GUN POWDER in all kinds of bright shinny colors for all to see .

Before I got my case head space gage I did as Brian suggested and had the rifle sitting right next to me for each sizing .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; May 31, 2014 at 04:18 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Old May 30, 2014, 05:52 PM   #36
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
James, a nylon spacer with a 10mm inside diameter and 10mm long or so, is perfect to use on your .308 Win. cases. It's diameter in inches is .3937"; close enough to the .4000" diamter in inches the reference diameter is on .308 cases. The important thing is, it'll work perfect to see how much a case shoulder gets moved forward or backward by sizing. The point it moves around isn't critical.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 02:40 AM   #37
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 5,067
Quote:
Just what I needed to know.
However, running to the garage down the road, sizing a case, running back home, chambering it, back to the garage, 1/70th of a turn and repeat sounds like a massive headache.

LOL, you guys are cracking me up on this. (LOL)

James, the gauges are not that expensive, I have one for each of the calibers I reload for. This is what I use to check the shoulders on the case to insure I do not have any excessive head space on the case.



You don't need to hike your rifle to the garage with one. As you can see the distance from the shoulder of the case to the base of the head is off a couple of thousands, to correct it you just turn your FULL LENGTH RESIZING DIE DOWN what ever is needed to bring the base of the case flush with the gauge. Now your "headspace" will be correct to SAMMI specs.

Now this really has nothing to do with head space (it does and it doesn't). All you are doing is insuring that the distance between the shoulder and base of the case are with in specs and it will properly chamber in your rifle.

The sad truth is that every time you fire your rifle you are changing your head space, not by much, but you are fire cutting the throat of your chamber each and every time. Like I said it is not by much, but after thousands of rounds the chamber will no longer be in spec to the caliber you are shooting and it will be time to replace that barrel with a new one.

How fast this happens depends on how hot a load you are firing through your rifle. A go/no-go set of gauges only tells you if your barrel's chamber (point at which the shoulder rests on a new barrel) has been set to the correct distance to the bolt face.

To find out what your actual head space is requires you to take a casting of your chamber/throat/1st inch or so of the barrel and with a caliper make the measurements.

So don't worry, if it isn't an old gun that has been shot a lot, you "head space" should be within tolerance.


So stay safe and shoot straight.
Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 02:54 AM   #38
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
James, the gauges are not that expensive, I have one for each of the calibers I reload for.
You sure about that?

If (and it's a big if) I can find a seller here, I will pay 3 times what it would cost to buy from a stockist in the UK, and probably 4+ times what you paid. Not a problem as I doubt anyone sells them in this country.

Example: .308 LNL dies sold locally cost about €70 a set:
That is over a hundred dollars, give or take.

If I decide to buy it from the UK, I can whack an additional $40 (£25) on top of the cost for shipping.
So, for something I can do with a fifty euro cent washer, I'll go with that!!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 07:05 AM   #39
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Quote:
Now this (Wilson gauge) really has nothing to do with head space (it does and it doesn't). All you are doing is insuring that the distance between the shoulder and base of the case are with in specs and it will properly chamber in your rifle.
It does ensure the case is within specs (as good as your eye can see) but it doesn't guarantee it'll chamber in your rifle. There's an overlap of case headspace compared to chamber headspace. A .308 chamber headspace of 1.631" will not allow a maximum case headspace of 1.634" (upper limit of SAAMI specs) to chamber in it. It's a crude measurement at best.

To see the facts behind this, check posts 27 and 28 in:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=546973&page=2

If you're sizing your .308 Win cases to a 1.627" headspace and using them in a 1.634" headspaced chamber, that .007" head clearance guarantees you'll get short case life before head separation starts as well as accuracy not all that good.

SAAMI specs for the .308 Win.:

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

Quote:
The sad truth is that every time you fire your rifle you are changing your head space, not by much, but you are fire cutting the throat of your chamber each and every time.
That's the first time I've heard of that being headspace. I cannot grasp any logic behind this claim. That Wilson gauge doesn't have anything to check it. Nor does GO, NO-GO and FIELD headspace gauges measure or gauge it; they don't protrude past the case neck-shoulder juncture.

Headspace is between bolt face and chamber shoulder or case head to case shoulder. No gauge measure bolt face or case head to ogive point where it contacts the rifling that's worn away from firing.

Quote:
To find out what your actual head space is requires you to take a casting of your chamber/throat/1st inch or so of the barrel and with a caliper make the measurements.
One can get just as accurate measurement for what's important by measuring a max load's fired case headspace and adding .001". But you cannot do it with a caliper without a gauge on it to fit the case/casting shoulder. One will get more meaningful information with a cheap nylon spacer used with their calipers to ensure cases are sized best for the chamber they're used in. As well as better accuracy and longer case life. What's important is how much a fired case shoulder's set back; actual headspace numbers are not important when reloading fired cases. Check post 35 in:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...t=nylon+spacer

It shows how a .30-06 case is measured but the same thing's done with any 30 caliber case.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 31, 2014 at 07:53 AM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 09:25 AM   #40
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
Quote:
I can't say for sure, but I'd guess you need no more than 1/10th turn out.
1/10th of a turn with 14 threads per inch would be .007", back to the feeler gage, it is a standard, it is a transfer and it verifies.

Quote:
but I'd guess you need
Why make a wild guess then verify the adjustment with a feeler gage, why not go straight to the feeler gage and skip the guess when making adjustments.

then there were Skip's shims, remove the die, add a shim, then what? Verify? I skipped skip's shims, I go straight for the feeler gage, make the adjustment and verify the adjustment in the same motion.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 09:44 AM   #41
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
Quote:
Quote:
I lack the tools and can't really afford to buy them.

All you need is a nylon bushing or even a socket that is close to 0.40" A 10mm socket works.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
1mm is close to .040", 10mm is close to .400",

I lack or do not have 'all the tools', not a problem, the mind is a tool. I understand the datum for the 308 W is .400". I can make 'the tool' with a drill and bit if I can drill a straight hole. Or I can relax a little and use a hole that is .375" in diameter, all my mind has to keep up with is I am suing a comparator, the hole being .400" or .375" is of little consequence, then I can relax even more because I am not required to make SAAMI happy, It is my chamber, my dies and my cases. I do not shoot gages, I make gages.

Bart B., I thought the whole thing was a Ferry Tale. I doubt Pond, James Pond understood a word of it and I have expressed doubts your understanding of the sequence of events starting with 'pulling the trigger'.

You fired a case, and!, it got shorter? That's it? You assume because Pond, James Pond did not respond he understood?

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; May 31, 2014 at 09:52 AM. Reason: change i to o
F. Guffey is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 10:30 AM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I make a guess because I have neither his dies, his brass nor his gun, so I have no way of giving him exact numbers.

I gave him all the information he needs to find and use those numbers.

You'll notice that I did, in fact, mention using feeler gauges. I did so partially in hopes that it might dissuade your usual harangue about gauges and standards and shims and transfers.

Apparently not.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 11:02 AM   #43
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Quote:
You fired a case, and!, it got shorter? That's it? You assume because Pond, James Pond did not respond he understood?
No. I measured the case before and after I fired it. I remember grade school math. As well as how to find the difference between an object's changing length should it be physically changed.

If your memory's any good at all, you'll remember that's what I've said all along.

I made no assumptions whatsoever because James didn't respond right away.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 11:31 AM   #44
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Bart B., I thought the whole thing was a Ferry Tale. I doubt Pond, James Pond understood a word of it
Look, I don't think you know me well enough to make assumptions on my comprehension, so please don't drag me into this.

On the other hand, if you have a basis for your post about Bart B's firing pin experiment being false or fabricated, please let me know so I know which information to rely on and which to discard.

In the meantime, based on how it was described, it seems perfectly plausible.

On the spacer point, I completely forgot to look for spacers at the hardware store today, so will instead my a 1cm bore in an old nylon chopping board I had cut up for an old project.
If needed, I can glue two parts together and drill those to give me plenty of room. I might also heat some brass too and then use it to melt the spacer's inner edge to make a solid mating surface with the case shoulder.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

Last edited by Pond, James Pond; May 31, 2014 at 11:41 AM.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 11:58 AM   #45
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
Keep in mind if your making your own spacer/bushing . The top and bottom must be square and true to each other . If not , as you turn your bushing you will get a different measurement each time .

In my work I like the term "factory edge" ( the part of the product that the manufacture / factory cut or made )

If I'm looking to get good measurements . I always use the factory edge of the material . I know the edge will be straight / square and I can base all my measurements off of that . If you buy the bushing , It's likely the edges will be square and true to each other .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; May 31, 2014 at 01:24 PM.
Metal god is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 01:14 PM   #46
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
James, you're thinking right and on the way to success.

Either a metal or nylon bushing about 10mm long but a 10mm hole inside will be great.

This is a relative thing to the case, not the chamber. So all you need to do is size cases so their shoulder's back .05mm or .002" less that it was in fired condition. The fired case is already within .001" (.025mm) short of being your chamber's headspace.

Best wishes in your endeavour. I smell success.
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 01:36 PM   #47
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 7,249
Quote:
However, as I understand it I am setting the shoulder back by 2 thousandths in relation to the chamber. In order to do that I therefore need to chamber's headspace to know what I'd be taking 0.002" from , IYKWIM.

And to do that, I either need a headspace go-gauge (no have, can't afford) or a case that has been stretched to fill the chamber's every nook and cranny (have, and free).
Pond, James Pond, I said you do not need the tool you do not have and I said you do not need the tool you can not afford. There is nothing mentioned in 'YOUR THREAD' that can not be accomplished by a reloader with a press, die, shell holder and press 'AND' the companion tool to the press. the feeler gage. I have an advantage, I use forming dies, if I had one forming die it would be a 308 W trim/forming die. I have 16 forming dies, when forming cases for chambers there is no way I can miss, I form cases to pre-determined lengths from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. It is always nice to have cases that are too long for the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, but being a reloader/case former I have no problem forming straight wall cases out of short cases, because? There are times all I want to know is the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, for me that is a matter of forming a case that fits the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt, remove from the chamber and measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case, In reloading there is no term for the method and or technique, I do believe all reloaders should be able to 'do it', for me it is a matter of transferring a measurement from a the chamber to the outside where I can put my home made, cheap, non expensive tools on it.

As a side note, I am the only one that can make a chamber cast when determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Quote:
as I understand it I am setting the shoulder back by 2 thousandths in relation to the chamber
And, I always ask, "How are you doing that?' Moving the shoulder back, I find that most difficult, it could be another of those things that is not fair.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; May 31, 2014 at 01:44 PM.
F. Guffey is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 03:14 PM   #48
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Quote:
As a side note, I am the only one that can make a chamber cast when determining the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.
How do you get the casting out of the chamber in one piece without opening the bolt and breaking off its rear end?
Bart B. is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 03:29 PM   #49
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,484
I see a place for a new product here.
The Unclenick die protractor, the Guffey shim, and the Redding shellholder set are kluges to try to get fine adjustment out of a 14 tpi die body thread, and a sloppy one at that.
All the major die makers offer a micrometer bullet seating die so you can adjust seating depth in small increments and record a preferred setting.
Why not a micrometer sizing die? It would have to have a 14 tpi body to screw into the press, but an internal sizing sleeve with graduated fine thread adjustment would make fitting cases to the chamber easier.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 31, 2014, 04:11 PM   #50
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Jim, the Unclenick protractor thing is already at hand. Read post 29 in this thread regarding his lables to put on dies. I supplied a picture showing how they look. The instructions in Unclenick's link explain how to use them.

They are not sloppy at all when correctly used. I've been doing the equivalent for decades and sized case headspace tolerances are typically less than .002". Good enough to shoot bullets as accurate as anyone else can. That dimension's spread is the least important to make very tiny.

I brought the idea of marking die lock rings to RCBS decades ago. Their rep thought it was a good idea to go along with their micrometer type competition bullet seater and Precision Mic case gauge. My idea was to stamp one side if the lock rings with 72 radial lines spaced to represent a .002" change of die height. RCBS never did it.

Here's a link to related information:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/74

Last edited by Bart B.; May 31, 2014 at 08:22 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10016 seconds with 8 queries