Local grocery store got held up at gun point.. - Page 3

csmsss · July 12, 2013, 11:53 AM

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Maybe a couple of examples from you would help enlighten me.

1) Let's say you're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your holster. What do you do?

2) Same situation as #1, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?

3) You're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your hand pointed at the bad guy. What do you do?

4) Same situation as #3, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?

I personally see no difference between 1 & 2, or between 3 & 4. My reaction will be the same for 1 & 2, and the same for 3 & 4. I'm not going to base my reaction on something (bad guy's specific point of aim) that the bad guy has the option to change literally in the blink of an eye.

The storekeep is being threatened with deadly force in every case. If the bad guy decides to shoot, then the difference in the time required for him to take the headshot, or else to shift his point of aim from the torso to the head then take the headshot, is measured in hundredths of a second. Far quicker than you'll have time to do anything about it.

Asking anyone to pose yes/no answers to ridiculously incomplete scenarios demonstrates you really don't understand this.

And, for the record, just to hopefully, finally, get past your limited comprehension threshold, I never suggested that the storekeeper wasn't threatened with deadly force. That you cannot see gradations in the level of threat (and consequences thereof) speaks to your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise.

45_auto · July 12, 2013, 12:08 PM

Seems pretty simple to me. My reaction will be the same whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or the torso.

You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be. But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years. Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso.

Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings? Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head?

SgtLumpy · July 12, 2013, 01:00 PM

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But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years

You're the sheriff?

Sgt Lumpy

csmsss · July 12, 2013, 01:35 PM

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Seems pretty simple to me. My reaction will be the same whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or the torso.

You know this how, exactly? Are you a robot? You always know exactly how you will react in every situation, no matter how the actual context varies from how you imagined it? Sheesh.

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You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be.

***? I have no problem at all describing the difference. A gunshot wound to the brain is nearly universally lethal, whereas with prompt treatment, the victim generally has a reasonable chance of surviving a torso wound.

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But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years.

Glad I don't live in your county.

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Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso.

No class on earth is a substitute for sound reasoning - and if you think going into a deadly force situation with a checklist is sound reasoning, well then your judgment is suspect indeed.

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Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings?

Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head?

Sigh. Your reading comprehension is tragically deficient. You still don't get the point, and probably never will. I will repeat it one last time, and then I'm done with this because it is, quite frankly, boring me. The point is that if the bad guy changes his point of aim from a place where it would be less dangerous to the victim to one that is MORE dangerous, that it would be an escalating factor/variable that makes the danger to the other party greater. Period. I simply do not understand why you cannot grasp what should be a very simple truth.

Double Naught Spy · July 12, 2013, 04:56 PM

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You're the sheriff?

Sgt Lumpy

You're an ex cop? Yes, he said he was a sheriff. You say you are an ex cop. You both type clearly. What's your point in asking him to restate his bona fides?

Brian Pfleuger · July 12, 2013, 05:26 PM

Drop the invectives, gentlemen. One and only warning.

Loronzo · July 13, 2013, 09:49 PM

My father used to own a towing service when I was very young in the worst area of Detroit. He told me latter in life that he had planned that if he was ever robbed he would just give the guy the money and be done... One day someone actually tried to rob him and he ended up kicking the guy with a shotgun through a window, himself unarmed. He also told me to always carry a single $100 bill in case I'm ever robbed when not working, that my grandfather made him do the same because drug addicts would kill someone they tried to rob who didn't have any money for "wasting their time" (it was a $20 in his case, darn inflation). I'd like to think that in the scenario the OP posted if it appeared that the robber just wanted the money I would be a good witness but none of us will ever know unless that day truely comes how we would react. There's a saying that the best of plans never survive initial contact. Today I carry a $100 even though I don't use cash ever, and I never leave the house unarmed, options...

skoro · July 14, 2013, 10:24 AM

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is there anything else I could have possibly done, being that I would've had my gun on me? Thanks.

I think the general principle here is that even though you are an armed license holder, you're not an officer of the law. Take good mental notes of the situation. Be a good witness for the police. Don't be the first to fire a shot. If the BG begins shooting, then you can defend yourself.

My LEO contacts tell me that armed robbers are a very high priority and detailed info from good witnesses leads to apprehension. Unfortunately, the usual quality of witnesses is very poor and they often have only sketchy information to go on until the criminal makes a wrong move.

SgtLumpy · July 14, 2013, 10:32 AM

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is there anything else I could have possibly done, being that I would've had my gun on me?

I don't think we should look at any differently when armed vs unarmed. We shouldn't be putting ourselves into MORE danger, just because we're armed.

Sgt Lumpy

wayneinFL · July 14, 2013, 10:40 AM

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But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years
You're the sheriff?

Sgt Lumpy

Kinda off topic, but I was wondering myself. Are you the sheriff of your county/parish, or are you a deputy?

45_auto · July 15, 2013, 07:21 AM

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Are you the sheriff of your county/parish, or are you a deputy?

Sorry about that, I'm a deputy sheriff. That post was the first time I ever tried to post from my iphone, took me 3 or 4 edits to get that post even halfway readable. It kept "fixing" things for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmsss

The point is that if the bad guy changes his point of aim from a place where it would be less dangerous to the victim to one that is MORE dangerous, that it would be an escalating factor/variable that makes the danger to the other party greater.

How does that affect your response? I'll ask again, do you have any references that deadly force to the torso is less "deadly" than deadly force to the head? Do you even know the definition of deadly force?

Are you more or less likely to draw your gun if the bad guy's gun is pointed at the victim's head vs the torso? If you already have your gun in your hand, are you more or less likely to shoot if the bad guy's gun is pointed at the victim's head or torso?

Why are you so hesitant to describe what you would consider to be appropriate differences in your reaction based on the bad guy's aiming point? You can call me all the names you want, but it's just like any other training. You'll find that if you aren't capable of describing what you consider an appropriate difference in responses when you have all the time you want to think about it and type it out, there's no way it's even going to cross your mind in a real world situation.

csmsss · July 15, 2013, 08:47 AM

I give up. I have answered that same question repeatedly, yet you ignore it. If you want to pretend that a gunshot to the torso is equally likely to produce a fatal injury than a gunshot wound to the brain, I cannot stop you.

Evan Thomas · July 15, 2013, 09:48 AM

Gentlemen... you were warned to drop this. Continuing to bicker after a public warning is a very bad idea.

July 12, 2013, 12:08 PM	#52
45_auto Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2011 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 1,399	Local grocery store got held up at gun point.. Seems pretty simple to me. My reaction will be the same whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or the torso. You seem to have a problem describing what you believe the appropriate difference would be. But I've only been a sheriff for about 8 years. Exactly NONE of the training or classes that I have been a part of have covered optional tactics based on whether the threat weapon is pointed at the head or torso. Do you have ANY references to ANY kind of recognized literature or training that supports your blatherings? Are you capable of sharing at least a minimal thought on what you would do differently between a gun pointed at someone's torso and one pointed at someone's head? Last edited by 45_auto; July 12, 2013 at 12:16 PM.

July 12, 2013, 05:26 PM	#56
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Drop the invectives, gentlemen. One and only warning. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 13, 2013, 09:49 PM	#57
Loronzo Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2012 Posts: 121	My father used to own a towing service when I was very young in the worst area of Detroit. He told me latter in life that he had planned that if he was ever robbed he would just give the guy the money and be done... One day someone actually tried to rob him and he ended up kicking the guy with a shotgun through a window, himself unarmed. He also told me to always carry a single $100 bill in case I'm ever robbed when not working, that my grandfather made him do the same because drug addicts would kill someone they tried to rob who didn't have any money for "wasting their time" (it was a $20 in his case, darn inflation). I'd like to think that in the scenario the OP posted if it appeared that the robber just wanted the money I would be a good witness but none of us will ever know unless that day truely comes how we would react. There's a saying that the best of plans never survive initial contact. Today I carry a $100 even though I don't use cash ever, and I never leave the house unarmed, options... Last edited by Loronzo; July 13, 2013 at 09:58 PM.

July 15, 2013, 09:48 AM	#63
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Gentlemen... you were warned to drop this. Continuing to bicker after a public warning is a very bad idea. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

July 15, 2013, 08:47 AM	#62
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I give up. I have answered that same question repeatedly, yet you ignore it. If you want to pretend that a gunshot to the torso is equally likely to produce a fatal injury than a gunshot wound to the brain, I cannot stop you.