Federal Agent Allowability

40s-and-wfan · January 10, 2011, 01:10 PM

What is the allow-ability for Federal Agents to use laser sights (Crimson Trace Laser-Max) on their handguns? Some agencies require a higher qualification score than others do, but I'm wondering if they allow the use of these tools in the qualification/carry process.

jhenry · January 10, 2011, 04:41 PM

That is going to vary quite a bit between agencies. Within agencies it can also vary according to regional powers that be. Not all federal agencies even issue or authorize the same weapons or ammunition. The question is far to broad. Why do you ask?

40s-and-wfan · January 11, 2011, 02:14 AM

I've been researching firearms qualification courses for different federal agencies and thought it would be a challenge to set something up along the lines of how the different agencies do it at our local IDPA range but I want to see how close it can be done to the same standards that the Federal Agents are held to! If they're not able to use Laser Sights, then it doesn't seem fair to do it during an IDPA course.

bamaranger · January 11, 2011, 02:16 AM

The NPS allows laser aiming device for routine carry on their SIG pistols. Only certain makes are acceptable. Crimson Trace is one.

Standards for qualification are the same, shooter must obtain a "passing" score, some parks and teams may require higher percentage score than the minimum. Courses of fire are std "day" and "reduced light" and must be shot w/ and w/o the device.

My duty station purchased a dozen or so of the Crimson Trace units 7-8 years ago, every "Ranger Gadget" wanted one. We had problems w/ the units holding up under 24/7 all weather patrol use. To my knowledgeable, not one of the units purchased at the time are still on duty.

10-96 · January 11, 2011, 12:16 PM

The Dept of Veterans Affairs does not allow for any attachments or modifications. Although rumor has it that laser grips are being looked at, I don't foresee their acceptance any time soon.

40s-and-wfan · January 11, 2011, 01:31 PM

Okay, now I'm just curious here but what in the sam-hell does the Department of Veteran Affairs need a Law Enforcement unit for?

10-96 · January 14, 2011, 01:01 AM

Tons of reasons actually. We investigate assaults, thefts, accidents, fraud, etc. Whether PTSD, illegal substance abuse, psych issues- we have some patients who are prone to violence, some can't reasonably defend themselves from the violent ones- and just as patients have treatment rights, Veterans and employees alike also have the right not to be victims. Hobgoblins know or believe Veterans receive various types of medications that have street value interest- and the Vets deserve not to have them stolen. Workplace violence takes a wide and varied appearance- domestic issues, substance abuse, psychosis, stress, etc. We do just about everything the city/county/state Officers do- and often times more. We make it a higher priority to strive for peaceful outcomes because our Veterans come to the VA for help and sometimes (for some) acting out is reaching out. Also, there are jurisdictional issues. VA's are federal property (similar to fed courthouses and military installations), and sometimes there are conflicts in law, policies, and procedures that local agencies can't conform to or support. We're one of the largest uniformed police agencies in the nation- it's just difficult to realize that as we are scattered from coast to coast, Puerto Rico, and Alaska.

Jeff22 · January 14, 2011, 02:27 AM

the VA police provide law enforcement & security services at VA hospitals all across the country

There are many Law Enforcement agencies that are a weird mix of security and law enforcement roles -- hospital police, university police, capitol police, airport police, and all the small Federal LE agencies in Washington DC that provide services to their agency or facility. The US Capitol has it's own police. The Supreme Court has it's own police. CIA headquarters has it's own police force. The pentagon has it's own police force. And etc.

Erik · January 14, 2011, 07:56 PM

I anticipate the list of agencies allowing laser aiming devises on their pistols to be be a short one, and predict that will not change any time soon.

jgcoastie · January 15, 2011, 06:55 AM

They're not allowed in the CG. Mainly because aside from TACLETs, LE personnel (which could be dozens of people at a larger unit) all draw from the same (smaller) pool of weapons. So basically, the gun you use today will likely be used by someone else tomorrow. Obviously, customization would be highly counter-productive.

I do not know if CGIS is allowed to use them as they fall under much different rules than the rest of us...

If anyone in our organization (either CG or CGIS) uses them, it would probably be the CGIS Commandant protection detail.

40s-and-wfan · January 15, 2011, 09:41 AM

I personally don't see too many agencies allowing their use. They're awesome as aiming devices but I think these agencies want their LE to be able to do it without the use of an aiming device.

bamaranger · January 16, 2011, 09:23 PM

10-96

Great reply post.

40s-and-wfan · January 16, 2011, 11:14 PM

Is there a branch of the Federal Government that doesn't have it's own Law Enforcement branch?! Or do I really want to know the answer to that question?

10-96 · January 17, 2011, 11:56 AM

There may be some/several- I don't know, but the Social Security Admin comes to mind. They have local private Security Officers on contract in some/most of their local offices. Well, at least they do in Albuquerque, Clovis, Amarillo, and Lubbock.

ClydeFrog · January 17, 2011, 12:21 PM

I worked in a temp/NTE(not to exceed) 085 Security position for a large VA medical center in the northeast US from 1998-1999.
The VA(Dept of Veterans Affairs) has a police/security service that I think is now called; VA Law Enforcement.
A few large VA healthcare systems used unarmed 085 security guards and 083 sworn police officers.
The VA police were carrying 92D 9mm sidearms(DA only format M9s). When Beretta cut the 92D models, a few VA medical centers chose other brands.
The sworn 083 VA officers near my home now carry the SIG P229R in the DAK format; 9x19mm.
Im surprised the VA did not select the P229R in .357sig or go with the .40S&W like many other LE agencies but I think they wanted to stay in line with the US Armed Forces(training & doctrine) as much as possible.

The VA police I worked with(most of which were retired MPs/USAF SPs) wanted to carry .45acp pistols. The .45acp round would be ideal for the medical center environment IMO but I'd prefer the newer .357sig. It's documented use by FAMs(air marshals) & the US Secret Service shows it's practical for close quarters or confined areas.

The VA police train in North Little Rock AR and sometimes go to the FLETC, www.FLETC.gov .

10-96 · January 18, 2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

(DA only format M9s).

Not quite. Our 92D is a Centurian- shorter than the M9. I'm not aware of any uniformed 085's left, we're all 083's and 080's.

ClydeFrog · January 20, 2011, 09:52 AM

A well made laser-aimer/CREE-white light would be a great add-on for many modern duty pistols.
I've read & heard of many T&E problems with the popular Crimsontrace & Lasermax systems.

For most uniform positions, I'd consider a large or mid size pistol(P226R/P229R or HK P2000 LEM or a PX4) with a powerful white light/green dot laser.
Many LE gear sources(Blackhawk, Safariland, Bianchi, etc) sell holsters that hold the lights/tactical lasers.
Low light places can occur nearly anywhere on any shift(day or night).

January 10, 2011, 01:10 PM	#1
40s-and-wfan Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Location: North-Western Montana Posts: 58	Federal Agent Allowability What is the allow-ability for Federal Agents to use laser sights (Crimson Trace Laser-Max) on their handguns? Some agencies require a higher qualification score than others do, but I'm wondering if they allow the use of these tools in the qualification/carry process. __________________ In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion but rather default to your level of training. Forgiveness is between them and god, it's my job to arrange the meeting! -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

January 10, 2011, 04:41 PM	#2
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	That is going to vary quite a bit between agencies. Within agencies it can also vary according to regional powers that be. Not all federal agencies even issue or authorize the same weapons or ammunition. The question is far to broad. Why do you ask? __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

January 11, 2011, 02:14 AM	#3
40s-and-wfan Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Location: North-Western Montana Posts: 58	I've been researching firearms qualification courses for different federal agencies and thought it would be a challenge to set something up along the lines of how the different agencies do it at our local IDPA range but I want to see how close it can be done to the same standards that the Federal Agents are held to! If they're not able to use Laser Sights, then it doesn't seem fair to do it during an IDPA course. __________________ In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion but rather default to your level of training. Forgiveness is between them and god, it's my job to arrange the meeting! -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

January 11, 2011, 02:16 AM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	NPS The NPS allows laser aiming device for routine carry on their SIG pistols. Only certain makes are acceptable. Crimson Trace is one. Standards for qualification are the same, shooter must obtain a "passing" score, some parks and teams may require higher percentage score than the minimum. Courses of fire are std "day" and "reduced light" and must be shot w/ and w/o the device. My duty station purchased a dozen or so of the Crimson Trace units 7-8 years ago, every "Ranger Gadget" wanted one. We had problems w/ the units holding up under 24/7 all weather patrol use. To my knowledgeable, not one of the units purchased at the time are still on duty.

January 11, 2011, 12:16 PM	#5
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	The Dept of Veterans Affairs does not allow for any attachments or modifications. Although rumor has it that laser grips are being looked at, I don't foresee their acceptance any time soon. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

January 11, 2011, 01:31 PM	#6
40s-and-wfan Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Location: North-Western Montana Posts: 58	Okay, now I'm just curious here but what in the sam-hell does the Department of Veteran Affairs need a Law Enforcement unit for? __________________ In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion but rather default to your level of training. Forgiveness is between them and god, it's my job to arrange the meeting! -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

January 14, 2011, 01:01 AM	#7
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	Tons of reasons actually. We investigate assaults, thefts, accidents, fraud, etc. Whether PTSD, illegal substance abuse, psych issues- we have some patients who are prone to violence, some can't reasonably defend themselves from the violent ones- and just as patients have treatment rights, Veterans and employees alike also have the right not to be victims. Hobgoblins know or believe Veterans receive various types of medications that have street value interest- and the Vets deserve not to have them stolen. Workplace violence takes a wide and varied appearance- domestic issues, substance abuse, psychosis, stress, etc. We do just about everything the city/county/state Officers do- and often times more. We make it a higher priority to strive for peaceful outcomes because our Veterans come to the VA for help and sometimes (for some) acting out is reaching out. Also, there are jurisdictional issues. VA's are federal property (similar to fed courthouses and military installations), and sometimes there are conflicts in law, policies, and procedures that local agencies can't conform to or support. We're one of the largest uniformed police agencies in the nation- it's just difficult to realize that as we are scattered from coast to coast, Puerto Rico, and Alaska. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two. Last edited by 10-96; January 14, 2011 at 01:09 AM.

January 14, 2011, 02:27 AM	#8
Jeff22 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2004 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 715	VA police the VA police provide law enforcement & security services at VA hospitals all across the country There are many Law Enforcement agencies that are a weird mix of security and law enforcement roles -- hospital police, university police, capitol police, airport police, and all the small Federal LE agencies in Washington DC that provide services to their agency or facility. The US Capitol has it's own police. The Supreme Court has it's own police. CIA headquarters has it's own police force. The pentagon has it's own police force. And etc. __________________ You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!

January 14, 2011, 07:56 PM	#9
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	I anticipate the list of agencies allowing laser aiming devises on their pistols to be be a short one, and predict that will not change any time soon. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

January 15, 2011, 06:55 AM	#10
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	They're not allowed in the CG. Mainly because aside from TACLETs, LE personnel (which could be dozens of people at a larger unit) all draw from the same (smaller) pool of weapons. So basically, the gun you use today will likely be used by someone else tomorrow. Obviously, customization would be highly counter-productive. I do not know if CGIS is allowed to use them as they fall under much different rules than the rest of us... If anyone in our organization (either CG or CGIS) uses them, it would probably be the CGIS Commandant protection detail. __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.

January 15, 2011, 09:41 AM	#11
40s-and-wfan Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Location: North-Western Montana Posts: 58	I personally don't see too many agencies allowing their use. They're awesome as aiming devices but I think these agencies want their LE to be able to do it without the use of an aiming device. __________________ In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion but rather default to your level of training. Forgiveness is between them and god, it's my job to arrange the meeting! -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

January 16, 2011, 09:23 PM	#12
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	well done 10-96 Great reply post.

January 16, 2011, 11:14 PM	#13
40s-and-wfan Member Join Date: March 14, 2009 Location: North-Western Montana Posts: 58	Is there a branch of the Federal Government that doesn't have it's own Law Enforcement branch?! Or do I really want to know the answer to that question? __________________ In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion but rather default to your level of training. Forgiveness is between them and god, it's my job to arrange the meeting! -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

January 17, 2011, 11:56 AM	#14
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	There may be some/several- I don't know, but the Social Security Admin comes to mind. They have local private Security Officers on contract in some/most of their local offices. Well, at least they do in Albuquerque, Clovis, Amarillo, and Lubbock. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

January 17, 2011, 12:21 PM	#15
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	VA Police & Security Services, VA.gov, SIG Sauer P229R DAK 9x19... I worked in a temp/NTE(not to exceed) 085 Security position for a large VA medical center in the northeast US from 1998-1999. The VA(Dept of Veterans Affairs) has a police/security service that I think is now called; VA Law Enforcement. A few large VA healthcare systems used unarmed 085 security guards and 083 sworn police officers. The VA police were carrying 92D 9mm sidearms(DA only format M9s). When Beretta cut the 92D models, a few VA medical centers chose other brands. The sworn 083 VA officers near my home now carry the SIG P229R in the DAK format; 9x19mm. Im surprised the VA did not select the P229R in .357sig or go with the .40S&W like many other LE agencies but I think they wanted to stay in line with the US Armed Forces(training & doctrine) as much as possible. The VA police I worked with(most of which were retired MPs/USAF SPs) wanted to carry .45acp pistols. The .45acp round would be ideal for the medical center environment IMO but I'd prefer the newer .357sig. It's documented use by FAMs(air marshals) & the US Secret Service shows it's practical for close quarters or confined areas. The VA police train in North Little Rock AR and sometimes go to the FLETC, www.FLETC.gov .

January 20, 2011, 09:52 AM	#17
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	laser-aimers, CT lasergrips; sworn LE-uniform duty... A well made laser-aimer/CREE-white light would be a great add-on for many modern duty pistols. I've read & heard of many T&E problems with the popular Crimsontrace & Lasermax systems. For most uniform positions, I'd consider a large or mid size pistol(P226R/P229R or HK P2000 LEM or a PX4) with a powerful white light/green dot laser. Many LE gear sources(Blackhawk, Safariland, Bianchi, etc) sell holsters that hold the lights/tactical lasers. Low light places can occur nearly anywhere on any shift(day or night).