Making your own primers. - Page 2

jmorris · December 28, 2007, 10:24 AM

No problem bushidomosquito, it’s kind of sad that most threads get side tracked by folks that don’t know and don’t care about the subject but have nothing better to do than display a general lack of knowledge and/or foresight. With that, I do have to admit that I’m still loading ammunition with primers I purchased before the AWB.

.45 COLT · December 28, 2007, 11:26 AM

Bushidomosquito, if you come up with something on primers, I'd like to know about it.

Years ago I played around with a real similar idea. My not being overbright, I tried both Nitrogen Pentiodide and Nitrogen Triiodide (seperately). Those were VERY bad ideas. Extremely unstable. Then I made up some Fulminate of Mercury - that was more stable, but not enough for my liking, especially after the nitrogen mistakes.

DC

brickeyee · December 28, 2007, 11:30 AM

I actually know how to make lead styphanate from scratch (and have done so in a lab).

I would NEVER post directions for this.
The stuff is VERY delicate to handle if it is allowed to dry out.

There are many places you can learn enough basic chemistry to kill yourself, so go for it.

**Unclenick** · December 28, 2007, 12:03 PM

What concerns me as more likely than the advent of a survivalist circumstance has been ignorant legislators who propose "arsenal licenses" for anyone with more guns or ammunition than the local widow keeps for self-defense. The ammunition restrictions they propose always amount to fewer rounds than some competitive marksman shoot in a day's practice, and less than many more will fire in a week. I don't know any competitive shots who don't buy .22 LRs and centerfire primers in cases of 5000. Then. low and behold, actually use them up. So, I am sympathetic to the notion that, other than a limited emergency supply, it may not be possible to buy and safely store enough commercial primers for a lifetime. That would get into the 100's of thousands for very active shooters. I wouldn't want that many primers in my house at one time in case of fire, regardless of the containment device.

In college I read the Foxfire book, which contains a pretty good survivalist description of making BP. It starts you out fermenting human waste for a year, then filtering it through wood ash to pick up potassium. The filtered liquid leaves saltpeter crystals behind as it dries. It takes dedication and a nose plug to be a true scratch BP maker.

As to primers, like black powder, the earlier the technology gets, the more primitive and simpler the required knowlege and equipment are. Making modern non-corrosive stuff is, like smokeless powder, going to involve temperature controlled processes and far more difficult to obtain chemical compounds. The old corrosive chlorate recipes will be easier, though you'll have to clean your guns with boiling water after you use them.

I would stay away from any of the fulminating metal compounds. I knew a fellow with extensive scientific training who was in an explosion when fulminating silver occurred accidentally as part of a telescope mirror silvering process. It's just too touchy. Ditto lead styphnate and lead azide and, obviously, fulminate of mercury. Generally, I would avoid making compounds that depend on achieving reactions to create. Stick with mixing powders.

zxcvbob · December 28, 2007, 12:07 PM

Mercury fulmanate will ruin your brass.

rwilson452 · December 28, 2007, 01:19 PM

Had some fulminate of iodine once talk about touchy

**Mal H** · December 28, 2007, 01:30 PM

The word "fulminate" means explode or detonate. So any compound that is a fulminate is, by definition, an explosive.

bushidomosquito · December 28, 2007, 01:49 PM

If you have access to a lathe and can envision how to turn out a set of dies for a reloading press that can stamp a brass disk into a primer cup, you will have gotten as far as I. My plan is only to have the knowledge of the process on hand in case primers become too scarce for whatever reason. We all know that guns can never be completely removed from society and so does the gov. but just like recievers being the main funtional part of a firearm, and thus heavily regulated, primers are the main funtional part of ammo and if there was ever too many flaming hoops to jump through in order to get them, I would like to be exempt from that B.S.

As for all the naysayers warning me that I'll shoot my eye out, I know certian of these compounds are safe to handle when wet and once dry, well, they cycle through the heaviest recoiling weapons that you can imagine without going off so.....

I've seen cutaway diagrams of different rounds before and they always seem to show two layers of priming compounds which leads me to think it's the firing pins deforming the brass and forcing the two compounds together between the cup and anvil that sets them off. If it was simply the impact we would all be very nervous about how we handled our ammo.

brickeyee · December 28, 2007, 02:01 PM

"...I know certian of these compounds are safe to handle when wet and once dry, well, they cycle through the heaviest recoiling weapons that you can imagine without going off so....."

The lead styphante is no longer just a pure compound.
The mixture with the other ingredients is what allows it to be stable.
Similar to nitroglycerin and chalk or sawdust = dynamite.

Even the mixing of the ingredients together is dangerous.
It is done in dedicated equipment often powered by compressed air with no one present in the actual mixing building.
The structures are made very light to AVOID confining any blast that might occur.

Time for a lot more chemistry and explosives knowledge.
"Explosives Engineering" by Cooper would be a good place to start.
http://www.amazon.com/Explosives-Eng...8868596&sr=1-1
The materials you need to make the priming compound are not going to be easy to find either.

CrustyFN · December 28, 2007, 08:41 PM

I was reading my ATF State Laws book and there is a section about having to have a special lisence to have or make explosives. I was wondering if you would need that lisence to make primers. Also would you need the lisence to buy the components to make the primer compound. bushidomosquito good luck with this project, I hope it works out for you.
Rusty

**Unclenick** · December 28, 2007, 09:07 PM

bushidomosquito,

I think the dual layers you are seeing are the priming mix and the sealant, which can sometimes be a fairly heavy layer. If you've ever pulled the bullet and dumped the powder from a rimfire case and looked at the priming mix dried into the rim, it is just a single white crystaline compound.

Like dynamite weeping, stable forms of compounds can go awry. If the temperature gets off a little during the mixing the compound can wind up with impurities that cause it to go off far more easily than expected. I remember, forty-something years ago, carefully making and 'stabilizing' a gram of nitrogen tri-iodide under water in a large beaker. I wanted to use it in several experiments. When I went back the next day and opened the metal locker I'd put the beaker in, all I found were glass shards and drying water. Sometime in the night it had gone off. So much for water stabilization. Glad I missed the event.

The safe handling properties ascribed to commercial primers assumes the compounding has been done under proper controls in the first place. Unless you have a chemistry or a chemical engineering background and also have full information on the process details, you can't count on achieving a match to the commercial product properties. That is why I suggested staying with the older priming mixes. The older they are, the less likely they are to require sophisticated equipment or expertise or electrically operated temperature controls or electrically operated remote mixing and pH monitoring equipment to be replicated. Electrically powered process control equipment is not very well suited to a post-apolcalyptic world, but is usually involved in modern chemical manufacturing. You want something that can be done in a mortar and pestle and with nothing more sophisticated than a beam balance for the SHTF scenario.

CrustyFN,

Yes. You would require an explosives manufacturing license. To get it, you would probably have to demonstrate your work facility was away from populated or flammable areas. I remember seeing a security camera tape of an explosives facility that was mixing a compound they'd mixed numerous times before, but that suddenly and inexplicably started to self-heat. They evacuated, fortunately, because the mixing machine didn't make it. Neither did the camera or the rest of the building. Even the pros get that kind of headache every now and again. I wouldn't want to have to pay their insurance bill.

rwilson452 · December 28, 2007, 10:33 PM

I had an iodine mix if you let it dry and chrystalize a fly walking on it would set it off. bad stuff.

FM12 · December 28, 2007, 11:32 PM

Nothing personal, but would youse guys mind if I take out life insurance on you?

FM(Fire Marshal)12

.45 COLT · December 29, 2007, 01:35 PM

I can probably work through the mechanical part without too much trouble. It's the priming compound that has me slowed down (stopped).

As far as regulating primers, the British government outlawed the sale of primers to natives in one of their African colonies, back in the early 1900s, so it has been tried. The natives made their own from matches. Recently read about that in a National Geographic (from sometime in the 1920s).

DC

**Mal H** · December 29, 2007, 05:28 PM

FM12 - let me get in on that action!

CrustyFN · December 29, 2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

FM12 - let me get in on that action!

How does a group buy sound.

Rusty

alan · December 30, 2007, 10:53 PM

Unclenick writes:
As to primers, like black powder, the earlier the technology gets, the more primitive and simpler the required knowlege and equipment are. Making modern non-corrosive stuff is, like smokeless powder, going to involve temperature controlled processes and far more difficult to obtain chemical compounds. The old corrosive chlorate recipes will be easier, though you'll have to clean your guns with boiling water after you use them.

-----------------

Cleaning guns fired with the older corrosive primers can present rusting problems. The WW 2 GI Bore Cleaner supposedly took care of that problem. Otherwise, flushig the barrel with water will dissolve the salt (chlorate residue) left from corrosive primners. Boiling or just plain hot water is not necessary, though it is nice. Water is the "active ingredient". Dry and oil after the water treatment.

brickeyee · January 2, 2008, 10:26 AM

"Boiling or just plain hot water is not necessary, though it is nice. Water is the 'active ingredient'."

And anyone who passed chemistry 101 will tell you that hotter water will dissolve the salts better and increase the chance of removing ALL of the contamination.

TEDDY · January 2, 2008, 07:23 PM

in afganistan the natives made primers by decapping 303 and stratening the cups Berdan use matches for compound.cut up ceuloid for powder.I have made primers by using cap gun caps.actualy it would be easy to go to a c&b revolver.put cap gun caps on nipples or make cups and put two caps in.they stopped the salutes from having over so many grams of powder because ediots blew them selves up.oops I did not need that eye as I have two.and the same with that hand.I lived in that time period.pipe guns salutes and marbles.just learn but dont do it.

alan · January 2, 2008, 08:10 PM

brickeyee noted:

And anyone who passed chemistry 101 will tell you that hotter water will dissolve the salts better and increase the chance of removing ALL of the contamination.

-------------------

True, and often heat enhances or speeds up chemical reactions, though re the dissolving of salt residue is not a chem reaction. Water is the "active" ingredient, thre more the better, and hot certainly does help. Point taken..

jmorris · January 3, 2008, 12:52 AM

I just hope TFL doesn't close down from folks being told how dangerous firearms (any and all) are and how many people have been killed from them due to miss use and ill information (I’d bet “they” could provide more statistics on deaths from firearms than anyone could provide on primer compounds).

December 28, 2007, 12:03 PM	#29
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	What concerns me as more likely than the advent of a survivalist circumstance has been ignorant legislators who propose "arsenal licenses" for anyone with more guns or ammunition than the local widow keeps for self-defense. The ammunition restrictions they propose always amount to fewer rounds than some competitive marksman shoot in a day's practice, and less than many more will fire in a week. I don't know any competitive shots who don't buy .22 LRs and centerfire primers in cases of 5000. Then. low and behold, actually use them up. So, I am sympathetic to the notion that, other than a limited emergency supply, it may not be possible to buy and safely store enough commercial primers for a lifetime. That would get into the 100's of thousands for very active shooters. I wouldn't want that many primers in my house at one time in case of fire, regardless of the containment device. In college I read the Foxfire book, which contains a pretty good survivalist description of making BP. It starts you out fermenting human waste for a year, then filtering it through wood ash to pick up potassium. The filtered liquid leaves saltpeter crystals behind as it dries. It takes dedication and a nose plug to be a true scratch BP maker. As to primers, like black powder, the earlier the technology gets, the more primitive and simpler the required knowlege and equipment are. Making modern non-corrosive stuff is, like smokeless powder, going to involve temperature controlled processes and far more difficult to obtain chemical compounds. The old corrosive chlorate recipes will be easier, though you'll have to clean your guns with boiling water after you use them. I would stay away from any of the fulminating metal compounds. I knew a fellow with extensive scientific training who was in an explosion when fulminating silver occurred accidentally as part of a telescope mirror silvering process. It's just too touchy. Ditto lead styphnate and lead azide and, obviously, fulminate of mercury. Generally, I would avoid making compounds that depend on achieving reactions to create. Stick with mixing powders. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 28, 2007, 01:49 PM	#33
bushidomosquito Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2007 Location: Kansas City Posts: 434	.45 Colt, If you have access to a lathe and can envision how to turn out a set of dies for a reloading press that can stamp a brass disk into a primer cup, you will have gotten as far as I. My plan is only to have the knowledge of the process on hand in case primers become too scarce for whatever reason. We all know that guns can never be completely removed from society and so does the gov. but just like recievers being the main funtional part of a firearm, and thus heavily regulated, primers are the main funtional part of ammo and if there was ever too many flaming hoops to jump through in order to get them, I would like to be exempt from that B.S. As for all the naysayers warning me that I'll shoot my eye out, I know certian of these compounds are safe to handle when wet and once dry, well, they cycle through the heaviest recoiling weapons that you can imagine without going off so..... I've seen cutaway diagrams of different rounds before and they always seem to show two layers of priming compounds which leads me to think it's the firing pins deforming the brass and forcing the two compounds together between the cup and anvil that sets them off. If it was simply the impact we would all be very nervous about how we handled our ammo. __________________ "Jack Bauer sleeps with a pillow under his gun." "Bush is listening, use big words."

December 28, 2007, 08:41 PM	#35
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	I was reading my ATF State Laws book and there is a section about having to have a special lisence to have or make explosives. I was wondering if you would need that lisence to make primers. Also would you need the lisence to buy the components to make the primer compound. bushidomosquito good luck with this project, I hope it works out for you. Rusty __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

December 28, 2007, 09:07 PM	#36
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	bushidomosquito, I think the dual layers you are seeing are the priming mix and the sealant, which can sometimes be a fairly heavy layer. If you've ever pulled the bullet and dumped the powder from a rimfire case and looked at the priming mix dried into the rim, it is just a single white crystaline compound. Like dynamite weeping, stable forms of compounds can go awry. If the temperature gets off a little during the mixing the compound can wind up with impurities that cause it to go off far more easily than expected. I remember, forty-something years ago, carefully making and 'stabilizing' a gram of nitrogen tri-iodide under water in a large beaker. I wanted to use it in several experiments. When I went back the next day and opened the metal locker I'd put the beaker in, all I found were glass shards and drying water. Sometime in the night it had gone off. So much for water stabilization. Glad I missed the event. The safe handling properties ascribed to commercial primers assumes the compounding has been done under proper controls in the first place. Unless you have a chemistry or a chemical engineering background and also have full information on the process details, you can't count on achieving a match to the commercial product properties. That is why I suggested staying with the older priming mixes. The older they are, the less likely they are to require sophisticated equipment or expertise or electrically operated temperature controls or electrically operated remote mixing and pH monitoring equipment to be replicated. Electrically powered process control equipment is not very well suited to a post-apolcalyptic world, but is usually involved in modern chemical manufacturing. You want something that can be done in a mortar and pestle and with nothing more sophisticated than a beam balance for the SHTF scenario. CrustyFN, Yes. You would require an explosives manufacturing license. To get it, you would probably have to demonstrate your work facility was away from populated or flammable areas. I remember seeing a security camera tape of an explosives facility that was mixing a compound they'd mixed numerous times before, but that suddenly and inexplicably started to self-heat. They evacuated, fortunately, because the mixing machine didn't make it. Neither did the camera or the rest of the building. Even the pros get that kind of headache every now and again. I wouldn't want to have to pay their insurance bill. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 29, 2007, 01:35 PM	#39
.45 COLT Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 308	Bushidomosquito I can probably work through the mechanical part without too much trouble. It's the priming compound that has me slowed down (stopped). As far as regulating primers, the British government outlawed the sale of primers to natives in one of their African colonies, back in the early 1900s, so it has been tried. The natives made their own from matches. Recently read about that in a National Geographic (from sometime in the 1920s). DC

December 28, 2007, 10:24 AM	#26
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	No problem bushidomosquito, it’s kind of sad that most threads get side tracked by folks that don’t know and don’t care about the subject but have nothing better to do than display a general lack of knowledge and/or foresight. With that, I do have to admit that I’m still loading ammunition with primers I purchased before the AWB.

December 28, 2007, 11:26 AM	#27
.45 COLT Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 308	Bushidomosquito, if you come up with something on primers, I'd like to know about it. Years ago I played around with a real similar idea. My not being overbright, I tried both Nitrogen Pentiodide and Nitrogen Triiodide (seperately). Those were VERY bad ideas. Extremely unstable. Then I made up some Fulminate of Mercury - that was more stable, but not enough for my liking, especially after the nitrogen mistakes. DC

December 28, 2007, 11:30 AM	#28
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	I actually know how to make lead styphanate from scratch (and have done so in a lab). I would NEVER post directions for this. The stuff is VERY delicate to handle if it is allowed to dry out. There are many places you can learn enough basic chemistry to kill yourself, so go for it.

December 28, 2007, 12:07 PM	#30
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Mercury fulmanate will ruin your brass.

December 28, 2007, 01:19 PM	#31
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Had some fulminate of iodine once talk about touchy

December 28, 2007, 01:30 PM	#32
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	The word "fulminate" means explode or detonate. So any compound that is a fulminate is, by definition, an explosive.

December 28, 2007, 02:01 PM	#34
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	"...I know certian of these compounds are safe to handle when wet and once dry, well, they cycle through the heaviest recoiling weapons that you can imagine without going off so....." The lead styphante is no longer just a pure compound. The mixture with the other ingredients is what allows it to be stable. Similar to nitroglycerin and chalk or sawdust = dynamite. Even the mixing of the ingredients together is dangerous. It is done in dedicated equipment often powered by compressed air with no one present in the actual mixing building. The structures are made very light to AVOID confining any blast that might occur. Time for a lot more chemistry and explosives knowledge. "Explosives Engineering" by Cooper would be a good place to start. http://www.amazon.com/Explosives-Eng...8868596&sr=1-1 The materials you need to make the priming compound are not going to be easy to find either.

December 28, 2007, 10:33 PM	#37
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I had an iodine mix if you let it dry and chrystalize a fly walking on it would set it off. bad stuff.

December 28, 2007, 11:32 PM	#38
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Nothing personal, but would youse guys mind if I take out life insurance on you? FM(Fire Marshal)12

December 29, 2007, 05:28 PM	#40
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	FM12 - let me get in on that action!

December 30, 2007, 10:53 PM	#42
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Unclenick writes: As to primers, like black powder, the earlier the technology gets, the more primitive and simpler the required knowlege and equipment are. Making modern non-corrosive stuff is, like smokeless powder, going to involve temperature controlled processes and far more difficult to obtain chemical compounds. The old corrosive chlorate recipes will be easier, though you'll have to clean your guns with boiling water after you use them. ----------------- Cleaning guns fired with the older corrosive primers can present rusting problems. The WW 2 GI Bore Cleaner supposedly took care of that problem. Otherwise, flushig the barrel with water will dissolve the salt (chlorate residue) left from corrosive primners. Boiling or just plain hot water is not necessary, though it is nice. Water is the "active ingredient". Dry and oil after the water treatment.

January 2, 2008, 10:26 AM	#43
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	"Boiling or just plain hot water is not necessary, though it is nice. Water is the 'active ingredient'." And anyone who passed chemistry 101 will tell you that hotter water will dissolve the salts better and increase the chance of removing ALL of the contamination.

January 2, 2008, 07:23 PM	#44
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	primers?? in afganistan the natives made primers by decapping 303 and stratening the cups Berdan use matches for compound.cut up ceuloid for powder.I have made primers by using cap gun caps.actualy it would be easy to go to a c&b revolver.put cap gun caps on nipples or make cups and put two caps in.they stopped the salutes from having over so many grams of powder because ediots blew them selves up.oops I did not need that eye as I have two.and the same with that hand.I lived in that time period.pipe guns salutes and marbles.just learn but dont do it.

January 2, 2008, 08:10 PM	#45
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	brickeyee noted: And anyone who passed chemistry 101 will tell you that hotter water will dissolve the salts better and increase the chance of removing ALL of the contamination. ------------------- True, and often heat enhances or speeds up chemical reactions, though re the dissolving of salt residue is not a chem reaction. Water is the "active" ingredient, thre more the better, and hot certainly does help. Point taken..

January 3, 2008, 12:52 AM	#46
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	I just hope TFL doesn't close down from folks being told how dangerous firearms (any and all) are and how many people have been killed from them due to miss use and ill information (I’d bet “they” could provide more statistics on deaths from firearms than anyone could provide on primer compounds).