.500 S&W- Magnum Research vs S&W

[Socrates]

Please post pictures of these animals...

I'll ask LH again: HOW did you get your gun into MO? Did you fly in through South Africa? 2009 the guys are going to Zim, and, current law prohibits bringing handguns into SA.

wasted band width..

[kristop64089]

Call me a Schill for Socrates if ya want. But, when I was doing some research on my FA, he gave me Jack Huntington's number, and when I told Jack who refered me(I only knew his handle, and Intitals) he knew EXACTLY who I was talking about. He had nothing but good things to say about him, and that he really knows his stuff, and is definately(as Jack put it) one of the good guys,.

So, I am willing to bet there is some creedance to what Socrates says. Remeber, this is the i-net, we ALL could be lying!

Sorry to jack your thread, I have nothin', other than I'd love to touch one off in 500S&W.

[Ole 5 hole group]

Hunter of the great lion, you have been a member for less than a year - tone it down a little guy, your initial post was OK up to that last paragraph and then you may have showed your colors. Very few care about $world $record $African $animals but most of us do care about each other’s “unqualified” opinions and when it comes down to it that's all most of us have based upon our experience and research. We share our opinions if we think we can help one another, making unprovoked personal attacks on other members may give some reason to believe you're an ass. Everyone learns a little from others and Socrates has contributed a lot to various discussions and most (with damn few exceptions IMHO) welcome his input as it's based on research, discussion with other knowledgeable gun individuals, his experience and/or his opinion based on the aforementioned. I'm also sorry for the hijack but felt this needed to be said.

[rogertc1]

I have a room full of guns however I will never post any pictures of it.

Anyone ever get the 700 gr .50 S&W ammo from Ballistic Supply?
I am hankering to order 20 for [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]s and giggles.

[DocDizz]

Oi vey. I'm just going to post this to LH and Soc.

[forest15]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to stir up any hard feelings, just was thought this might be the place to get some good unbiased info... Still not sure on which to go, but I'm in no hurry, so still have plenty of time to research and hopefully test a couple...

[shomstead]

Forest15,

I have been eyeing the SW 460. I have been reading as much as I can find on the 500 as well as the Ruger 454. I'm still up in the air. I have even concidered a .44 mag. My use will be for a little Florida hog and also back-up. I hike quite a bit along the AT so black bear is always on my mind.
For this I feel comfortable getting a .44 however I will have occasion to be fishing out west, which is why I am thinking about the larger caliber.

I have had the opportunity to shoot all of the guns. For me the recoil is a non-issue. I feel training will work out any kinks in my brain with that.
I like the SW 460 V because of the rounds it will take and the barrel length is not to short but not to long.

Do follow up with what you finally purchase.

[Socrates]

Forest15: Sorry. Socrates must have gadflies...
I PMed my eval of the BFR's to you. The X frames aren't really handguns, more like artillery pieces without wheels.

However, if you chop the barrel down, custom fit grips, and shoot ammo that is loaded under 40k pressure, and bullets that aren't too light, or too heavy, you should be fine.

You HAVE to get rid of the stupid lock...

S

[Socrates]

The sheer idiocy of the argument that you have to have shot something to have some idea of it's terminal effect is absurd. The more I think about it, the more angry I get. What % of people here have EVER shot another human being? Yet we look for information on the subject so that if the incredibly unlikely event ever occurs, we are properly prepared. I thought the Marines had some such motto? Yet, someone with a sig: Semper Fi, puts that argument forward?

We use ballistic gelatin. Some even drink the S&M koolaid, and buy into their fake statistics.
Others accept that 3rd party information is the best source
on terminal effects. If you've never been to war, and, 100k people are shot with 7.62 x 54R, and, the people doing the shooting observe that the effect was very good, then you buy into it.

I have friends that shoot a LOT of game with heavy caliber handguns, including the 500 S&@. The .500 JRH, Jack's own invention, is a shortened version of that cartridge, and, he takes every chance he can to handgun hunt with that cartridge. His conclusion is it kills about the same as a 375 H&H, and, he's got the dead, large animals to prove it. They also modify S&@ revolvers as the one I pictured above.
I REALLY like the cylinder length, since its the same as my max, and, if loaded to 40k pressures, or, to .500JRH
levels I have no problem with the round. Whether the bullet comes out of a .500 JRH or a .500 S&@, the animal doesn't really know the difference. That said, I do know that over 440 grains, having a gun that actually has a bigger case, the .510 Linebaugh Maximum, and is the same length as the .500 S&@, and is more powerful, I just don't see the need for anything over the .500JRH level loads. You aren't going to shock a cape buffalo, or elephant. And, a .500 caliber bullet, 440 grains, makes the same size hole as a 525 grain .500 caliber bullet. MAYBE you could use penetration more then 5-6 feet the .500 JRH gives with a 430-440 grain bullet, but, on what animal? Rhino, elephant, hippo maybe? You REALLY shouldn't be hunting those with anything smaller then a 458 Lott, but, that's just because I LIKE that caliber, and, the .475 Ackley.

I think the .500 JRH is the most sensible of the big bores, along with the .475 Linebaugh/Huntington. Both give enough penetration for 99% of game, and, kill like a 375 H&H, at least according to a bunch of people that have watched other folks shoot bison sized animals with them.
Also, except for flat trajectory, for relatively long range shooting, I don't see what the extra two hundred feet a second gives you.
That said, and, this is totally irrational, I really like the .500 S&@/.500 Max sized cylinder guns.


For carrying around, and, normal human use, the shorter .475 Linebaugh is a real nice combination, and, a bit more packable:










Who was it that said the best way to avoid a war was to prepare for it?

[davlandrum]

However, if you chop the barrel down, custom fit grips, and shoot ammo that is loaded under 40k pressure, and bullets that aren't too light, or too heavy, you should be fine.

Mine is just fine the way it is.

You HAVE to get rid of the stupid lock...

Because they bother you???

[CraigC]

2009 the guys are going to Zim, and, current law prohibits bringing handguns into SA.

When did that change? It was perfectly legal spring of `06 when I booked mine. I can find no reference to it being any different now.

Air2000 is a popular service that helps in importing firearms from other countries. I can find no reference to handguns being illegal to bring into South Africa for hunting purposes.

http://www.hunterssupport.com/services.htm

This picture, linked from a Leverguns.com article, was taken last spring in the Limpopo district of South Africa. Note the bandolier holster.

[LionHunter]

Socrates is wrong, as usual, about hunting handguns in Africa. They may be imported into RSA and are legal in Zimbabwe as I write this. He obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, again.

The internet is a dangerous place, where anyone can become an expert simply by logging on. Speaking authoritatively may impress some but it doesn't give one any expertise nor validate their comments. Incorrect information needs to be exposed because if left in place, the influence it exerts on the uninformed can have unintended consequences of a negative effect.

Socrates can insult me all he wants but I am through responding to him. I will, however, continue to correct any incorrect information he posts here and on other internet firearms forums.

[jeepster11]

i have both the 460 and the 500 and i like the 460 hands down over the 500 its more versatile and cheaper to shoot and doesnt try to rip your hand off good luck

[kristop64089]

Socrates is wrong, as usual, about hunting handguns in Africa. They may be imported into RSA and are legal in Zimbabwe as I write this. He obviously doesn't know what he is talking about, again.

The internet is a dangerous place, where anyone can become an expert simply by logging on. Speaking authoritatively may impress some but it doesn't give one any expertise nor validate their comments. Incorrect information needs to be exposed because if left in place, the influence it exerts on the uninformed can have unintended consequences of a negative effect.

Socrates can insult me all he wants but I am through responding to him. I will, however, continue to correct any incorrect information he posts here and on other internet firearms forums.

Awwww, look! Socrates has made a friend.

[Socrates]

...

[CraigC]

I think the proper term is 'gadfly'.

Far as I can tell you're dead wrong on this issue and you need to respond a little stronger than that. Not sidestep it with glib comments like somebody else I know.

[Socrates]

Craig C:
Thank you for the link. It just worked for me.

I will be following up with this, and, sending it to my friend for his conformation. I'm glad you are correct, not for my good, but his.

All I wanted was a straight answer, because, he firmly believes he cannot bring his SA 5 gun into SA.

S

[alistaire]

Someone at the local range has a S&W 500. He let me fire a couple of rounds. He down loaded the rounds I fired to 1/2 normal power because the full power ones nearly broke his wrist. It was much nicer to fire than a 340PD with 357s.

I could see owning one of them if I lived in bear country or was expecting a gunfight and couldn't bring a rifle or platoon of Navy SEALs.

[maikell77]

I own a few S&W's and I own a BFR 460. I've put some wood grips and had a trigger job on my BFR. It's my favorite handgun hands down. With the grips, scope, and trigger job I have right at $1k into the gun. I've handled the S&W many times and do not think it is enough better to justify the price. It's a great gun but I feel the BFR is a bit stouter. I really have nothing to back this up other than my observations about how well my BFR is made and how good the tolerances are. I've run a good deal of full power 460 through it and alot of 454 and have not had any problems with it, other than a sore handlwrist the next day.

You really can't go wrong with either its a matter of taste and for me the BFR with wood grips and some polish is hard to beat.

[grizz449]

WOW ! Whats with the negative spurts about Socrates? He's been helpful to several readers including myself. I happen to own 3 Performance Center 500's and have owned a BFR in the same caliber. I've had some problems with 2 of the S&W guns relating to timing. As for comfort and accuracy they are outstanding. The muzzle break does work to control felt recoil but it does creat a little anger for the people standing next to you. The BFR was nice but felt recoil with 440 grian bullets at 1500+ fps was a bit much. To give an opinion to the original question, I would recommend the Smith at 40,000 CUP or less (AS MENTIONED BY SOCRATES !!!)

[Socrates]

Anyone ever get the 700 gr .50 S&W ammo from Ballistic Supply?
I am hankering to order 20 for [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]s and giggles.

Well, we do have one guy with a 500 S&@ with 525 grain bullets at 1550 fps. He pretty much missed a Bison with one, since the gun made him flinch.

Couple other guys are having Jack cut the nose off cast .50 BMG bullets, and, they yield about a 730 grain, cup nosed bullet.

The round in the middle is a .500 Linebaugh

Now, Jack says the 500JRH, the shorter version of the 500 S&@ hits like a 375 H&H, at least on big game, bison, beefalo, asian buffalo, Nigali, and those are the ones I know he shot. Guys at the ranch in Texas concur. That's a 440 grain bullet at either 950 fps, or, 1350 fps. Funny part is the animals don't seem to notice the additional ftlbs the velocity creates, and, the extra speed might actually limit penetration, due to the cast bullet noses deforming at the higher speed.

As I said prior, I can't really shoot 525's at 1350 fps, so, If I'm going to shoot 525's again it will be something like
525 @ 1000 fps for Recoil Energy of 28 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps. I LIKE shooting loads up to 40 ft-lbs, and, know I dislike loads at Recoil Energy of 52 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 30 fps(525 @ 1350 fps), or higher.

Now, I said all that to say what my experience and recoil levels are. 700 grain bullets, out of a 500 S&@ are slightly different, since the gun weighs about 73 oz. or 4.6 pounds. Mine weighs 3.6 pounds, and, does not require a carriage and a bunch of horses to carry it.

So, I'm not saying you could get 1350 with a 700 grain bullet out of the S&@, but it would recoil at:
Recoil Energy of 69 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 31 fps.
700 @ 1200 fps:
Recoil Energy of 55 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 28 fps.
700 @ 1100 fps
Recoil Energy of 46 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 25 fps.
700 @ 1000
Recoil Energy of 38 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 23 fps.
So, I could happily move those big bullets at 1000 fps, and, MAYBE 1100 fps.

The rifle guys swear their is a huge difference in bullet impact and stopping power, when you move from 400 to 700 grain bullets, at rifle velocities.

Jack Huntington has told me that a neglected component in handgun stopping power is the total outside area of the bullet, as it goes through the target. In deer sized targets up, the larger bullets, that is 400 grains or more, .475 caliber and more, seem to kill out of preportion to their ft lbs of energy. As many have observed, the 440 grain 500 JRH bullets, kill like a 375 H&H rifle. Now, they have maybe 1600 ft lbs of energy, and, the 375 H&H, at least as loaded by double tap, is in the 4000-5000 ft lbs of energy range.

I'm giving you as much information as I have, because I don't know anyone that's actually shot anything with a 700 grain pistol bullet...

Wonder if any of the black powder guys shoot 700 grain bullets at those speeds?

[Socrates]

Ganyana

Posted 03 September 2008 17:38 Hide Post
The outfitter should be able to tell you and South African Regs keep changing.

In Zim, Handgun hunting is allowed, but the operator has to pre-apply for the "special" permit. In practice, if the hunt is on parks land you will need the permit. If it is on private or tribal land- why comlicate park's life? If you are entering through Harare, there will be no BS with any kind of handgun. Through the falls... better to get the operator to pre-apply for the permit. By law, you just fill out the temp firearms permit at the airport or border, and anything other than full auto is permissible without pre-application. However, vic falls seem to interpret things differently!

The above is from a Game warden in Zim:



Appears things aren't as clear cut...

[The Terminator]

Ok! As of today, I have owned or own, each revolver. I owned a 10" Performance Center S&W in 500 magnum, and currently, own a BFR in 500 magnum.

Question is, do I like it better than the S&W PC that I was shooting? The one with the 10" barrel? Yes, I do. Why? Balance, pointability, much lighter and easier to shoot without a rest. In fact, it shoots just like any long barreled Ruger that I have ever had.

Is it better made or stronger than the S&W? I don't really know enough about either to answer that. Both are fine guns for me. I am sure that there are more than enough who believe everything that a gun writer says, to pontificate on this subject.

Did the 1" longer than necessary cylinder bother me? Heck no, I even liked it better. It provides a little bit of very much needed weight to the pistol, to help keep the recoil down. I'm serious about this.

If I had to buy or trade for either, again, I'd go with the BFR, hands down, for the reasons that I listed, but only if it was cut to 6" and Magnaported, like this one. Initially, I wanted another S&W with a 6" barrel, and came very, very, close, to buying one of the new half-lug 500's with a 6" barrel that S&W is selling now. They are beautiful pistols.

Here is a photo of the S&W that I traded away for a bench rifle. It was, for me, too unwieldy to hunt or shoot at the range, without a rest.


Here is a photo of the BFR, after I changed the grips on it today.


Here is a video of the BFR at the range today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_5XUbMJEk

Here is a video of the S&W, when I took it to the range and shot it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-bvmkzqv_k

[Shawn2571]

That is why I shoot Rugers. Wish they would chamber for the 500's

[ruggyh]

Let me say, never saw so much miss information in a thread.

First let me say I have many X-frames with over 2000 rounds shot through and they still shoot fine. My favorite 460 has 16000 rounds on it and shots fine.
Do they break parts- yes- not on a frequent basis but things do break- never been charged by S&W to fix them though.

These are super magnums and you would be naive to think that things are not going to wear compared to other low pressure cartridges.

As far as hunting with them in Africa most countries they can be imported for hunting a simple check with each countries hunting gun import rule will verify this. Yes I know several individual who have taken Cape buffalo with their 500 S&W and many other game animals.

State side I hunt with mine often as possible and have taken bison, grizzly, black bear and other animals.

The only down side the X-frame has in my opinion is the requirement for hearing protection.

As with any handgun if you expect to be proficient you have to shoot your chosen handgun a lot.

As for your other options in 500 S&W revolver the fore mentioned BFR will be your only option. Nothing wrong with them -probably the best bang for your your dollar in terms fo quality in revolvers today. That said single actions are more difficult to master as the power goes up.

Nothing wrong with other big bore calibers out there either, but none tops the 500 S&W for raw horsepower.

As for the comments of poster Socrates well I am in the Bay Area also and would love to see your bragged skills.

Your anecdotal comments about energy are typical of those that think kinetic energy is the magic that makes a bullet kill.

Kinetic energy is a heat calculation used by manufactures to get people to buy their ammunition. If you think others wise how does a catcher catch a fast ball without it killing them? 90+ mph and 5.25 Oz roughly

For those interested in Hunting Hand Gun revolvers I would suggest you pick up a copy of the Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers by Max Prasac for a more informed prospective.

Anyone interested in shooting big bore revolvers (460, 500, 500 JRH) in the California Bay Area drop me a note

be safe
Ruggy