Gun safes?

[leadcounsel]

www.sturdysafe.com

I'm in the market for a safe and have done alot of research. My budget is $1700. For $1650 delivered I'm buying a 34 cubic foot fire lined safe (about 29 cubic feet interior) with 8 guage steel with no welded spots and 1/4" door, commercial grade combo lock, and ceramic and wool 90 minute fire resistant protection and weighs 750 lbs so it's manageable to move and can be bolted down to prevent theft. It's designed to be very break-in proof with many features that the others don't have. It's 5' x 3' x 2.5'. It has a 20 year warranty. It will give me peace of mind for my valuables from theft or fire.

In comparison, the Cannons, Liberties, Sentry's etc. of the world offer thinner metal (usually 10 or 12 gauge), drywall fireboard insulation (which is near worthless and makes the safe 10% heavier = harder to move), and cheap combo locks for about the same price.

I briefly looked at Browns, but I don't have the $4,000 required to get a Brown, so when I saw the pricetag I stopped looking.... :-) For my $1700 the Sturdy is the best money can buy.

Do your homework and I think you'll agree.

[jcims]

Look good. I liked this page:

http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_002.htm

Shows the postmortem of one after a real house fire. Bet that dude has another one bolted down in his new place already!!!

[Logs]

I have a Cannon Safe picked it up for $1,050. It will hold 30 long guns (single shots I am guessing) and has two shelves so it is extra tall. I also have the electronic lock and it is great.

Getting one shipped is tough since they are heavy. It also cost me $250 to have mine delivered and then taken down a flight of stairs to my basement. They used a mechanical lift that only took 2 guys. My safe is around 800 lbs.

Cannon's have a great warrenty. Check them out...

[625]

OK. I thought I had a deal with a range buddy to buy his Liberty Lincoln model for $900, until I found out it was unlined and not fireproof.

http://www.libertysafe.com/safe_Lincoln.lasso

Maybe Liberty is building them different now?

http://www.libertysafe.com/fireprotection.lasso?page=5

I feel confidant that most of the stuff in my safe would survive if my house went up.

drywall fireboard insulation (which is near worthless and makes the safe 10% heavier = harder to move)

Near worthless? Really? Why does it work then?

http://www.libertysafe.com/fireprotection.lasso?page=4

cheap combo locks

Sargent & Greenleaf Group II are cheap? What is considered high quality? LaGard and Mosler locks can be compromised with auto-dialers.

I think a decent Liberty or Cannon would fare ok in the average fire or burglary. If someone wants what's in my safe, they will get it even if the safe is slightly better. Maybe Sturdysafes are better, but the Cannons and Liberties are nice too. Sturdysafe has a really crappy website too. Not very much info and no prices.

[leadcounsel]

The most helpful safe buying info I've ever found on the net.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_005.htm

I'm getting a 35 cu ft. safe with 90 minutes fire protection from ceramic and wool blankets, with 7 gauge hardened steel and commercial grade combo lock for $1850 delivered! IT's much more heavy duty than any liberty safe and much less expensive.

As it was explained by their safe expert Steve at Study.... A few high points:

Fire proofing:

The fireboard is simply not as effective as ceramic wool and glass blankets that Sturdy uses. As others have pointed out on other posts, fireboard has a high moisture content and when it gets hot it releases moisture to retard the fire. So, your guns and papers may not burn, but they'll be soaked in the sauna inside the safe until you can open it, which may not be for hours or days (remember your plastic dial will be melted away and you may need a locksmith to open it. even if your dial isn't plastic, the firemen won't let you near the safe until it's completely safe and everything is cooled down).

The UL fireproof "rating" is not very realistic. They cook the safes for exactly 30 minutes, 45 minutes, or 90 minutes and then immedaitely hose them off until they are cool and then openned immediately to cool the interior. The safes pass this "test" but it's not very realistic, mainly because in a total burn down the temps will exceed 1200 degrees AND the fire may burn longer than 30/60/90 minutes AND safe won't always be hosed off immediately. The interior of the safe may well reach unacceptable temps and REMAIN there for some time.

Per Liberties site: "Liberty safes are tested and certified by Omega Point Laboratories, an independent, nationally recognized company which conducts fire tests simulating home fire conditions. In an Omega Point fire test the furnace temperature builds to 1200°F, typical home fire intensity, in ten minutes and is maintained there, exposing the safe to the full heat and intensity of a simulated home fire during the test. The test is over when one of the nine computer monitored temperature probes inside the safe rises 275°F above the ambient temperature - paper chars at 402°F . The results are a rating that is a real measure of a safe’s fire endurance under conditions simulating a house fire, not just a factory test. Simply put, Liberty safes are built to pass a rigorous, realistic, fire test. That’s why a Liberty Safe with a 45 minute Omega Point fire rating can achieve a one hour and twenty-nine minute rating when a competitve fire testing method is used. For more information on fire testing, visit Omega Point Laboratories at www.opl.com or Underwriters Laboratories at www.ul.com. CAUTION: All safes are susceptible to heat and fire damage when exposed to high enough temperatures for extended periods of time. Thus, no safe is actually “fire proof,” only fire resistant."

Sturdy uses different testing methods that accurately reflect REAL fires. Using ceramic and wool makes the safe significantly more fire resistant at 2300 degrees (rather than the less realistic 1200 degrees), no moisture from the heat, and reduces the weight of the safe by around 10% or more, making it easier to move and less expensive to ship. Just bolt it to the floor for burglary protection.

From Sturdy: Sturdy Fire Safes are made with a first layer of heavy steel (7 or 8 gage). The second layer consists of a 2300 deg. U.L. listed ceramic wool. The third layer is a U.L. listed 1000 deg. glass blanket. The fourth layer consists an inside sealed steel liner. Which compresses the two insulating blankets to a total thickness of two inches or more throughout the safe.

Check out the total burndown at www.sturdysafe.com under firesafes. This guy's papers and plastic gun box and ammo were all fine after he lost everything in a total burndown.

Liberty uses thin steel. I bet yours is 10 or maybe 12 gage. You can punch through it with a screwdriver or a fireax rather easily and peel it open like a tin can with a crowbar and an axe. My Sturdy safe is 7 gage, which is significantly thicker. It would require significant effort to punch through it with any common implements and you wouldn't be able to peel the metal away.

You asked if "Sargent & Greenleaf Group II are cheap? What is considered high quality? LaGard and Mosler locks can be compromised with auto-dialers." Sturdy uses Sargent & Greenleaf also, but there are several grades. I bet your safe has a residential grade. Sturdy uses the commercial grade with is significantly stronger and more durable. Per Sturdy: "All combination boxes used on gun safes today are made of a pot metal-type alloy. STURDY GUN SAFE'S combination tongue (dead-bolt) is made of solid brass which makes it 30 to 40 times stronger than the cast pot metal deadbolts. Sturdy does not rely on the strength of the pot metal combination box for the needed strength. Instead, Sturdy Safe installs a combination deadbolt reinforcement. This makes the combination box even stronger than it's dead bolt. It also helps protect the lock system from undue force and helps eliminate the need for shear pins and clutches inside the door, which are responsible for most accidental lock-outs. Be sure the combination box has a deadbolt reinforcement in the safe you buy. STURDY GUN SAFE uses a commercial grade Sargent & Greenleaf combination box. Most gun safe manufacturers use a S & G combination box made for residential use which is not made for a heavy-duty application. Unfortunately, the average consumer cannot differentiate between the two. Therefore it is important to know that the heavy-duty Sargent & Greenleaf commercial combination box model number is "6730"."

As far as warranty, Sturdy offers repair or replacement after fire or burglary for 20 years. The door has exterior pins and is also removable for easy transportation so the whole safe doesn't need to be shipped (no, a burglar cannot remove the door, nor would removing the pins do any good when it's locked). The others offer warranties, but what good is a warranty if you safe has FAILED to protect your stuff from fire or theft?

Liberty, Cannon, Sentry, etc. all cut corners by using cheap fireboard (what is it about $10-20 a 4x8 sheet?) and thin metal and residential grade locks, spend money on advertising rather than production. It's probably fine for your stuff and for light duty fire protection and unsophisicated burglars, but for the same or less money you could buy a Sturdy safe with thicker steel, commercial lock, and REAL fire protection.

[625]

leadcouncil,

You spew a load of crap with no proof.

remember your plastic dial will be melted away

My dial is not plastic

even if your dial isn't plastic, the firemen won't let you near the safe until it's completely safe and everything is cooled down

What does that have to with anything? HMMMM? And this would be different with your safe? Yea, ok...

Sturdy uses different testing methods that accurately reflect REAL fires.

Really, like what? There is nothing on their crappy website that explains their testing procedures.

You can punch through it with a screwdriver or a fireax rather easily and peel it open like a tin can with a crowbar and an axe.

More bs from a bs artist. Tell you what, you and I can split the cost of a Liberty safe and you can try to open it it with an axe and a screw driver. If you can't do it, you buy the rest of the safe. If you can, I'll buy the other half. Sound fair?

All combination boxes used on gun safes today are made of a pot metal-type alloy.

Wrong again.

You might want to do some research before you spew a bunch of lies. Your last post is so full of bs, I don't even wish to cover each point.

I never said Sturdy safes are bad. Although you think just about all other safes are junk with no proof. List some examples of Cannon or Liberty safes failing either by fire or burglary.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you worked for sturdy. You seem to have info that their website doesn't list. Where did you get this bogus info?

[leadcounsel]

625:
I'm not lying about anything and I selected Sturdy after a year of extensive research on the topic and saving my money for the purchase.

Hey, I don't care what you buy and doubt you'll buy a different safe as I understand that you already have one. I'm just trying to inform people that there are options and that people can buy a much better safe for the same or less money.

To counter your specific points:

1: Granted, your dial may not be plastic, but is it a commercial or residential grade? Commercial grade locks are up to 40 times as strong and durable and harder to crack, and therefore significantly more expensive. PROVE that liberty safe locks are NOT residential grade. From Sturdy's website: "STURDY GUN SAFE uses a commercial grade Sargent & Greenleaf combination box. Most gun safe manufacturers use a S & G combination box made for residential use which is not made for a heavy-duty application. Unfortunately, the average consumer cannot differentiate between the two. Therefore it is important to know that the heavy-duty Sargent & Greenleaf commercial combination box model number is "6730"."

2: Fire protection of the Sturdy safe is FAR superior than the Liberty safe. The Liberty offers two sheets of fireboard (the stuff used in housing construction that is basically moist drywall, used in the barrier between your garage and interior living space). It works by baking off the moisture, which is contained inside the safe (making it a sauna for the goods inside and ruining papers and rusting metals). It offers a whimsical 75 minutes of heat/fire insulation for fires of 1200 degrees. Sturdy offers more expensive and effective ceramic and wool and glass blankets with 2300 degrees for 90 minutes. Thats about twice as hot for 20% longer. AND, it doesn't release steam and moisture into the safe!

Fire protection for Sturdy is explained here and is much better than the 1200 degree 75 minute protection your safe offers, and they have PROOF of their safes' performance after a TOTAL burndown. Even the papers and plastic boxes survived:
http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_002.htm

"...The second layer consists of a 2300 deg. U.L. listed ceramic wool. The third layer is a U.L. listed 1000 deg. glass blanket...."

I've also had lengthy conversations with their safe expert Terry who will explain the differences. The fact that he spends TIME on the phone is meaningful to me because it demonstrates their willingness to customer service.

As far as the testing goes, Liberty’s website says they heat them up, then cool them down and open them.

In a REAL fire, your valuables will be left in an unopened safe for an undetermined amount of time. IN the fireboard protected safe, that means they will bake in a sauna and be saturated with water for who knows how long. Moisture will damage papers, electronics, and metal on guns. The Sturdy safe is rated for higher temps for longer time and releases NO moisture into the safe.

3: Burglary protection: Liberty safe is 10 gauge steel (some models are less with 12 guage), 3.571875mm thick. Sturdy 7 gauge steel is 4.7625mm thick, or 25% thicker. Thinner gauge metal, such as 10 or 12 gauge, can be punched through with a fireax or screwdriver, whereas the 7 gauge steel that MY safe is made of cannot. In theory, with repeated axe strokes, someone or a pair of burglars could just carve out an opening with a fireax, and peel 10 or 12 gauge open with some pry bars and take your goods out through the side and a 1' opening. Sure, this would be noisy, but what if you're on vacation or gone for the evening? Don't know about you, but I'd rather have my valuables protected by 7 guage than 10 (or 12) guage.

I don’t know whether you bought a Liberty or how much you paid, but here’s a comparison from the website against the Sturdy safe that I bought.

Liberty:
10 gauge steel, 35 cubic feet, fireboard fire insulation, 75 minute 1200 degree protection, 960 pounds, S&G group II lock (residential grade) for $2100 (not sure if this includes delivery; if not, add about $300 for delivery).

Sturdy:
7 gauge steel, 35 cubic feet, ceramic wool and glass blanket 90 minute 2300 degree fire protection, 875 pounds, S&G commercial grade lock for $1850 delivered.

Liberties BEST safes are only 10 gauge steel. All of their safes offer only fireboard construction, and to get a Liberty safe NEAR the Sturdy characteristics in fire protection would cost over $3000!

Sturdy is CLEARY the better product in every respect. It’s got 25% thicker steel, 20% longer fire protection at 90% greater heat, a stronger and better combo lock, and lighter weight for easier moving, for much less $.

Why buy residential grade when you can buy commercial grade for less?

On google there are nearly 12 million hits for "FIRE SAFE FAILURE." As for listing failures on fire safes, I'm not interested in spending any more time on this point. Could be that there are NONE. Could be there are MANY. Could be that failures are not published on the website due to confidentiality settlements with safe companies where lawsuits are settled between the owners and the safe companies.

All I can say is that I bought a significantly better product that Liberty can offer for significantly less money and I'm 100% confident in the product and satisfied with the product and the service. That's all that matters.

[625]

Dude, you are a complete joke!

Liberty uses carbon steel.

Their better safes use 3/16 steel which is considerably thicker than 10 gauge which you falsely claim they use on all of their safes and it's also thicker than your 7 gauge sturdy safe. (Another lie from you)

You know nothing about steel. You think you can get through even 12 gauge carbon steel with a screw driver!!! I almost fell out of my chair from laughing so hard when I read that.

Nobody is arguing that sturdy doesn’t make a decent safe. Get it, chief? Hello?

If sturdy lies to their potential customers like you claim they do, why would I want anyone to deal with them even if they have nice safes?

[leadcounsel]

You’re right, liberty uses carbon steel. Good for you! It also uses 10 and 12 gauge in all but their MOST expensive safes, which cost more than $3000! For $3000-4000 you can get a Brown safe, far superior to any safe company.

As far as using a fireax to cut a hole in your safe, I’d be glad to come over and demonstrate. Yes, anyone can punch a hole through 12 carbon steel with an axe. If you’re so confident, take an axe to the back of your safe and give it a few good swings.

If you wanted a safe with the same thickness of steel that Sturdy uses in a Liberty safe, you would have to buy an “entry level” Presidential series Liberty safe for a cool $3200 for a 25 cubic foot, or $3800 for a 40 cubic foot safe, or maybe you’d prefer the Magnum series for $4300! Have fun!

[625]

See, your problem is you need to educate yourself before you bash other companies, otherwise you just look foolish. I wasn't here to bash any companies, that was all you. I just had to set the record straight. Your posts are full of lies. Finally you admit you are wrong about something and it comes with a lengthy explanation. Just admit you are wrong and move on.

P.S -- What happened to your screw driver theory? I'd love to watch that.

[leadcounsel]

625...

You're fixated on a moot point that I never even made. I've reiterated the same thing over and over... When did I ever say they did not use carbon steel. I never said that....

Besides, I am correct. In their best selling safes, which were a few hundred dollars more than, but also in the dollar range of the Sturdy safe I bought, THEY DO USE 10 AND 12 GAUGE STEEL wheras Sturdy uses 7 and 8 gauge steel.

Apparently you are fixated on this and your fixation has caused you to fail to comprehend the point.....

PLEASE DO US ALL A FAVOR. Find an exact quote of one of my alleged lies that YOU CAN PROVE IS INCORRECT. The post that information for all of us to see. If you can't this discussion and your name calling is over.

[johnbt]

The Sturdy safes look pretty nice. The one thing they say on their site that I disagree with is that the door on a safe should seal. I have always used GoldenRods in my safes and they REQUIRE good air circulation. I suppose I could get used to using rechargable dessicant packs in a sealed safe, but the GoldenRods are just too easy and foolproof.

Oh well, I just went back to the site... ...shipping would not be cheap for me...they're in California.

John

[625]

I'm buying a 34 cubic foot fire lined safe (about 29 cubic feet interior) with 8 guage steel

whereas the 7 gauge steel that MY safe is made of cannot.

Do you even know what you own, or are you just a crappy salesperson. One of these statements is a lie.

Liberty safe is 10 gauge steel (some models are less with 12 guage), 3.571875mm thick.

You didn't say SOME Liberty safes are 10 gauge. This could be construed as a lie.

Liberties BEST safes are only 10 gauge steel.

Well, we know that's a lie, now don't we. Even you finally admitted it.

Thinner gauge metal, such as 10 or 12 gauge, can be punched through with a fireax or screwdriver

Like I said, you know NOTHING about metal. Your fireaxe theory is only speculation unless you have proof. You KNOW you are lying about the screwdriver. That is complete bs.

I'll ask this again since you never answer any of my questions. You seem to have info that their website doesn't list. Where did you get this bogus info?

Also, something people might want to keep in mind. Who the heck has heard of Sturdy? Why should anyone trust this tiny, little known company? What happens if they go out of business in a year or two?

If you just stated that sturdy makes a great safe for the money, and left it at that, you would have no problems. But you had to go ahead and bash other companies with lies and speculation.

[leadcounsel]

625:
In answer to you exceptional pettiness:

I originally was going to purchase an 8 gauge steel safe which would not be available for two weeks (because they are a small company, they only have a few on hand and it takes up to 10 days to fire line it. However, the price of the 7 gauge was very attractive and they had one available immediately with fire lining. That’s not a lie, I simply bought a slightly different product.

I stated that some Liberty safes are 10 gauge and some are 12. That’s completely accurate. What are you smoking?

When I was referring to Liberties BEST safes, it was implied that I was talking about safes they make within the same ballpark price range. READ BETWEEN THE LINES! Sure, you CAN get thicker steel safe IF YOU WANT TO SPEND $4000!

I’ll bet you that I can punch through a 10 or 12 gauge steel with a fireaxe right here right now. Pony UP or sit down!

Sturdy is a small company that’s been making safes for nearly 50 years. They spend their money on product development, not advertising. They probably have smaller profit margins because they don’t sell junk safes with thin metal, cheap locks, and drywall fireboard for fire insulation. I’m guessing that the reason that the Liberties of the world make such huge profits is that because they sell in volume and their safes are rarely put to the test with fires or burglaries. So, for most instances they are probably fine for generations or small fires. But if they are put to the test, will your property inside survive?

What does happen if Sturdy goes out of business tomorrow? I’ll have a better safe for less money than you could buy with twice what I spent if you shop at Liberty, that’s what! It’s more rugged, thicker steel, better lock, and significantly better fireproofing.

What happens when YOU have a total burn down and ALL of your valuables and irreplaceable items are RUINED because your safe failed?? What exactly is Liberties’ warranty, anyway. LIBERTY’S website information for warranty says “Site UNDER CONSTRUCTION!” Not really a confidence builder, is it?

[625]

You can't even admit that you lie.

You are a troll.

If you rely on your safe that much, you are an idiot.
I can afford insurance. This is what people need in case of a fire, or theft. No safe is "fire proof" or "theft-proof"'.

Anything in any safe is just a material item that I could live without.

Are you done bashing? I guess not.

[shaggy]

FWIW, rather than argue about which safe might be better at withstanding an attack, why not look to the people that test it for a living - Underwriters Labs. The UL rating of a safe (not just the locking mechanism) is good indicator of how well a safe will hold up to a attack. Most big name gun safes like Liberty, AMSEC, Fort Knox, etc. have a RSC rating by UL. Some better ones carry a TL-15 or TL-30 rating. The Sturdy Safe certainly looks sturdier, but I didn't see any UL rating on the Sturdy Safe site. My guess is that like the Liberty they also hold an RSC rating, so while one may be slightly stronger than the other, the difference would be minimal in terms of additional security under a real attack.

Here's a summary of the UL rating system and what it means in order of increasing security:

Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.

Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.

TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.

TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.

TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.

TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

[leadcounsel]

From Sturdy's website:

http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_002.htm

"Sturdy Fire Safes are made with a first layer of heavy steel (7 or 8 gage). The second layer consists of a 2300 deg. U.L. listed ceramic wool. The third layer is a U.L. listed 1000 deg. glass blanket. The fourth layer consists an inside sealed steel liner. Which compresses the two insulating blankets to a total thickness of two inches or more throughout the safe."

[shaggy]

LC-

That sounds great, and I agree that the Sturdy Safe sounds better, but UL will give an overall rating to a safe based upon its resistance to specific attacks under a limited working time frame. The strength and rating of the materials is important, but when a thief breaks into your home what counts is how long it will take him to enter the safe through its weakest point, not the thickness or strength of the component materials. Certainly 7 gauge is thicker than 10 gauge, but if they're both rated as RSC, a thief could enter it in 5 minutes net working time or less.

[Harley Quinn]

I can see that 625 has gone undercover and not confronted you.

Look's like the gig is up better change your name and come back as a different person. You are toast buddy.

Did I tell you I did not believe you? How do I know these things. Training
I guess?

Were you planning to try to keep this under wraps or do you feel everyone does not read.

Actually I felt you had some good points until you started calling me name's and others the same. Sorry dude you are toast. I said that HMMM gettin old.

By the way I wanted to ask you when the guy is on the other side of your steel door scenerio, how many of those 00 buck do you think stayed on your side and rattled around your house?

Edit: By the way I have a Cemco safe very heavy and very strong but it does not have a good fire rating...So it is enclosed in a very heavily drywalled numerous pieces both sides of the walls 5/8 drywall. I am not sure at the time of this writting if they even make them any longer. One of my favorite colors, Purple. Bud and Lou are my sentries.

Harley

[leadcounsel]

Shaggy,
good question. I don't know if the Sturdy has a UL rating. I DO know that it has a commercial Grade S&G combo lock, so lock picking is not an option.

My safe has a recessed door to prevent prying it open, so that's not an option, and it's thicker steel than the rest of the safe.

My safe has many 1 inch deadbolts on the sides, so that's not an option.

The handle is not an attack option either. excessive force on the handle will not open the door.

I'm extremely confident that a safe cracker isn't going to be able to crack the combo, cut, pry, or pound his way into my safe.

[625]

Yea, but you can break into a Liberty safe with a screwdriver!
Would you just go away!

[wyrdone]

Any safe can be cracked.

A circular abrasive cut off saw like the kind the use on railroad ties can and will open almost all safes. Question is, can the robber safely do that without damaging contents and without tipping off neighbors?

A welder's pasma cutter can also open them....but more risk of damaging contents. (also harder to tote around)

[leadcounsel]

Sturdy safe pictures:

Since these pictures I've put on the decals that came with the safe to "dress it up" alittle bit.

Edit: Oopps... the files were too large. Sorry no pics at the moment.