Powder Charges

[akinswi]

So I was loading a batch of 30-06 this afternoon and decided to load half this batch by weight and the other half by volume.

My brass is all from the same lot so they are all pretty darn close as far as having the same internal volume. I used my Lee perfect powder measure to dispense 34.22cc of IMR 4895 or 47 grains approximately.

I weighed each charge and they did vary not much about .02 grains again in weight. It was my understanding that even though the weight may change the volume should stay the same.

I have seen several posts of people throwing charges that vary , from powder measures, but that should happen but the volume should stay the same correct?

Lee has IMR 4895 VMD at .728. I always wondered how accurate this number is.

Im very interested to compare these when I shoot them.


The whole idea behind this was twofold 1 every electronic scale I have drifts, 2nd save time. The hoppers can dispense powders alot faster than any of my electronic dispensing machines

[tangolima]

The volume may be the same but how packed the powder is may not. That leads weight (mass) variations with powder dispenser throws. I think it is better to scoop the powder out of surface of powder in a container.

My electronic scale doesn't drift (keep increasing or decreasing) but it dithers +/- 0.02gr, or +/-1mg.

I have been manually trickling powder charges. It is slow but makes better rounds. Things are expensive. I should make each round count.

-TL

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[akinswi]

Tang, Do you scoop the powder out, then trickle to your desired weight?

[Unclenick]

Here's an example of how much stick powder can pack. In this case, it's the same exact charge of IMR 4064 dropped through different drop tubes.



The powder can pick up as much as a percent and a half of water weight, comparing a very dry to a very humid environment. I have never precisely measured the effect on volume, and I assume it could differ by formulation, but I assume it swells at least a little.

VMD's can vary by over 10% span, so I find the Lee tables tend to be conservative to avoid overcharging. Western Powders used to have average VMD and bulk density variation for their powders online, but Hodgdon dropped all that information from the web pages when they bought Western out. You can probably find the information on the Wayback Machine. The least variation is with spherical powders, which can vary as little as ±2.2% in their listings, IIRC. The worst were some of the stick powders that varied by ±5.6% in the Western line. The problem with those numbers is we don't know the measuring conditions, and as my illustration shows, packing down due to vibration in transport or how the loader handles the powder could cause it to vary a good bit. I suspect they were measured identically, and those numbers are just lot variations, but I never asked Western that question directly when they were still around.

What you want to do is rely on the graduations of your Perfect measure since that is what you will use to dispense the powder anyway. Throw and weigh 30 charges from it. Take the average in grains. Divide 34.22 CC by that average, and you have the actual VMD for your lot of powder the way you are throwing the charges. That's what matters to you. Just be prepared that the next lot may be different.

[Jim Watson]

I weighed each charge and they did vary not much about .02 grains again in weight.

A measure that holds within two HUNDREDTHS of a grain is a treasure.
A measure that holds within two tenths is adequate for most purposes.
Hatcher wrote of two lots of ammunition, one with a fine granulation powder and little variation and one with a coarse granulation and a good bit of variation. The coarse stuff gave better accuracy.

But shoot yours and let us know.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by akinswi

Tang, Do you scoop the powder out, then trickle to your desired weight?

I usually don't. I have tried that and found it slow and messy. Instead I used dispenser to charge a brass, empty the brass into the scale pan, trickle, and funnel the powder back into the brass. So I'm measuring each drop out of the dispenser to notice the variations. The worst is the first drop after adjusting the vernier, easily 0.2 - 0.4gr, always on the high side. Even for drops afterwards, 0.1gr variation is not uncommon depending on type of powder.

One thing I also notice while doing this. It takes a bit of time, up to a second or so, for the dispenser to fully empty its cylinder, especially so for large rifle charges. I need to hold the handle up long enough to have a good drop. Doing it too fast the charge will go under.

-TL

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[akinswi]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

A measure that holds within two HUNDREDTHS of a grain is a treasure.
A measure that holds within two tenths is adequate for most purposes.
Hatcher wrote of two lots of ammunition, one with a fine granulation powder and little variation and one with a coarse granulation and a good bit of variation. The coarse stuff gave better accuracy.

But shoot yours and let us know.

The most extreme spread was .03 but that could of been the scale I usually use two seconds of dwell time on both strokes seemed too work good for me..

The one thing I love about the Lee Perfect powder measure is that its pretty fool proof.

I will report my results,

Will

[Paul B.]

I use an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 or Chargemaster Lite for rifle charges. Charges have been pretty consistent, usual plus or minus.1 gr. from the desired setting. Handgun rounds I use an RCBS powder measure and depending on the round being charged check every fifth or tenth throw. It's worked out quite well for me doing it that way.
Paul B.

[Unclenick]

Akinswi,

Are you sure your zero isn't supposed to be before the decimal point? I've never seen any measure throw even ball powder tighter than about 0.05 grains. For 4895, using a no-cut measure, a more reasonable expectation is just about ±0.2 to ±0.3 grains. If yours is actually throwing ten times better than that, it is spectacular.


Tangolima,

Have you considered setting the primed case on your scale, starting it, then charging and weighing it to see the difference to trickle up? If your scale doesn't drift doing that, it would save you some pouring and funneling. I've done that to eliminate variables when experimenting.

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Akinswi,

Are you sure your zero isn't supposed to be before the decimal point? I've never seen any measure throw even ball powder tighter than about 0.05 grains. For 4895, using a no-cut measure, a more reasonable expectation is just about ±0.2 to ±0.3 grains. If yours is actually throwing ten times better than that, it is spectacular.


Tangolima,

Have you considered setting the primed case on your scale, starting it, then charging and weighing it to see the difference to trickle up? If your scale doesn't drift doing that, it would save you some pouring and funneling. I've done that to eliminate variables when experimenting.

Yes Nick I had decimal in wrong place. Tenths not hundredths. My scale wont even measure hundredths.

[tangolima]

Unclenick. Thanks for suggestion. I tried that approach but it didn't work for me. My trickler is too short and it is difficult to trickle into the narrow neck of the brass.

-TL

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[ballardw]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Instead I used dispenser to charge a brass, empty the brass into the scale pan, trickle, and funnel the powder back into the brass.

What type of measure are you using? When I'm using a powder / load combination that requires trickling I drop directly into the pan of my scale. Hold the pan right at the base of the measure then lower slowly after dropping the charge. Then place on the scale. My trickler then allows dropping grains into the pan while on the scale.

If your trickler is too short then perhaps mounting on a small wooden block would correct that.

[tangolima]

Good idea to bottom the pan against the nozzle. I will give it a try. It is a rcbs dispenser. Powder would splash out of the pan. My trickler is short with short tube. Even with block of wood, it will hard to trickle directly into a brass, especially small calibers such as .223.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

I load in batches, and use my loading blocks. Cases ready for charging go in the block base up. Charged go back in the block, base down, obviously...

when the batch is charged I can do a visual inspection to check for grossly over or under charged cases. Measure is set to throw just under desired charge weight. Charge is poured from the case into the scale pan, trickler brings it up to desired weight, then its poured back into the case (yes, funnel for that).

The case goes back into a loading block, and I set the bullet on the case mouth, upside down. (bullet base up). This provides an instant visual tell tale that case has a weighed powder charge and is "done".

When the block is full I move to seating.

The only time I dump from the measure directly to the scale pan is when setting up the measure the first time, and yes, I do hold the pan against the drop tube, to avoid powder "splashing" out.

[tangolima]

I don't load a lot. 20 rounds ish each time. So I charge and seat one at a time. A bit slower perhaps.

-TL

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[ballardw]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Good idea to bottom the pan against the nozzle. I will give it a try. It is a rcbs dispenser. Powder would splash out of the pan. My trickler is short with short tube. Even with block of wood, it will hard to trickle directly into a brass, especially small calibers such as .223.

-TL

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I never even contemplated trickling directly into cases.
My need was for an accurate measurement so trickling directly into the scales pan seemed to be the way to go. Then pour from the pan through a funnel to the case. Either hold the funnel by hand or make a little stand to support the funnel.

[Paul B.]

I load my rifle brass using one of the Chargemasters so it's set the charge weight and run the machine. depending on what I'm loading I'll spot check what the machine put out with a separate digital scale. If a weight looks too far off then the beam scale gets to join in on the fun. The back up scale always freads.01 less that where the Chargemaster is set for. Same thing with hand thrown charges from a manual measure. Usually when doing rifles I charge the case while the measure is throwing the next charge.
For handgun ammo I use the Uniflow and check weigh every fifth or tenth charge depending on what I'm loading. Full power .357 and .44 Mag ammo gets weighed every fifth round and light target load with wadcutter bullets every tenth round. I usually use W231 for my light target loads, especially in .38 Spl. I don't use Bullseye all that much anymore so when my last pound is done, I go with 231.
Paul B.

[gwpercle]

For dispensing 4895 in the 30-06 for match grade ammo :

1.) Lyman 55 Measure .
2.) Adjust the three powder slides to give a single deep narrow cavity , to measure the charge you want .
3.) Set up your scale , fill the 55 hopper with 4895 and begin to practice throwing consistent charges ... You will have to develope a Consistent Method of Operation ... doing the same motions consistently , with the same speed and force .
When you start getting a good consistent method and movement and operation down , start recording your charge weights ...
4.) When you become proficient at operating the Lyman 55 your weights will not vary more than 0.05 grains ... that is if you have the "knack" for working a measure ...
I've seen some fellows that did better with a scoop ... which isn't a bad way to dispense powder ... I scoop most of my handgun charges . Small charges , for me , are easier to scoop ...faster too .
Gary

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by ballardw

I never even contemplated trickling directly into cases.

It sounds a little awkward, but the reason I did it was to save a pouring step and, by the difference in tare, would get a quick check that the case weights weren't too far apart at the same time. I was, however, doing it all with 30-caliber cases, and my Redding trickler kept putting powder into those pretty well. I did have the trickler elevated. The odd grain that missed the case mouth fell into the weighing pan and, if it didn't bounce out, was counted toward the total charge weight, and then those few grains that were in the pan I would simply pour directly into the case mouth. I probably lost several individual powder grains to bouncing, but not much.

I think trying to do it with a 22, I would start the same way. Tare the primed case and charge it from a powder measure. But I would trickle all the additional powder into the weighing pan around the bottom of the case, then pour the accumulated trickle from the pan into the case. Funnel optional.

[akinswi]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

For dispensing 4895 in the 30-06 for match grade ammo :

1.) Lyman 55 Measure .
2.) Adjust the three powder slides to give a single deep narrow cavity , to measure the charge you want .
3.) Set up your scale , fill the 55 hopper with 4895 and begin to practice throwing consistent charges ... You will have to develope a Consistent Method of Operation ... doing the same motions consistently , with the same speed and force .
When you start getting a good consistent method and movement and operation down , start recording your charge weights ...
4.) When you become proficient at operating the Lyman 55 your weights will not vary more than 0.05 grains ... that is if you have the "knack" for working a measure ...
I've seen some fellows that did better with a scoop ... which isn't a bad way to dispense powder ... I scoop most of my handgun charges . Small charges , for me , are easier to scoop ...faster too .
Gary

I use a count like 1 one thousand then drop, then 2 1 thousand and keeps me in rhythm. Helped me with more accurate throws