PA House bill encodes ammo

[cdoc42]

PA House Bill 586 calls for coding all ammunition sold in PA by Jan 1, 2024 and any existing uncoded ammo has to be used or destroyed by Jan 1, 2024.

Details here: https://legiscan.com/PA/text/HB586/id/2752605

The bill is uni-partisan (Democrats) and two unrecognized consequences instantly stand out:

1) Criminals will gather fired, coded cases from shooting ranges and illegally hand-load them, leaving the empty cases at the crime scene, which will be traceable to the legal purchaser, not to the criminal.
2) Cartridge manufacturers will not likely engage the retooling costs to comply, thereby essentially boycotting sales to PA which will eventually disarm the entire PA population.

[44 AMP]

Since you brought this up, could you provide a thumbnail description of "regulated firearms" as used in the bill?

As far as your other points, I find #1 to be highly unlikely. Criminals simply aren't going to bother going through the trouble (and expense) to handload ammo in "ecoded" fired cases. Stolen "encoded" ammo won't be traced to the criminal, and is a lot simpler, easier (and cheaper).

#2) Manufacturers are absolutely NOT going to comply with this, as it goes way beyond just "marking a number".

As written, the bill requires the marking to be "as determined by the Commissioner.." which cannot even be contemplated UNTIL the "Commissioner" makes known what is to be required.

Second, the bill requires the marking to be on the base of the bullet and inside the case in such a manner as to be "likely" to be able to be used to identify them AFTER firing and bullet IMPACT.
(and just how, pray tell is that to be complied with??)

Next, the requirement is for each round in each box of ammo to have the same number ID, and a different ID# for each different box of ammo.

This would require every ammo maker to segregate and track each bullet, each case, and each ammo box to ensure compliance. That is not a trivial matter. It would require a complete revamping of the method of ammunition manufacturing. IN order to comply with this proposed law, ammo could no longer be made in runs of thousands of rounds and then boxed up,. ammo would have to be made, in box lots (20 or 50 rnds at a time), then boxed, in order to ensure that the bullets, cases, and box numbers all match. AND, ensuring that only ammo so made goes to PA...

They simply are not going to do that, and particularly won't do it for ammo sales in one local area (PA).

Additionally, a 5cent TAX per round of ammo, to pay for the "encoded ammo tracking database".... (which govt sales are exempt from...)

And I find it most generous that the people of PA will have at MOST 5 months (assuming the bill becomes law immediately) to use up or destroy ALL the ammo in the state, without compensation or even even the possibility of replacement with approved "encoded" ammo by 1 Jan 2024. (again, except for the state's ammo??)

As described, with the "encoding" on the INSIDE of the round, how is one supposed to be able to tell if the ammo is compliant or not?? This ALONE is an absolute enforcement nightmare. The exterior of an encoded round and an unencoded round would be identical. Is it going to be a crime to put encoded rounds in a different box? etc...

Where would "burden of proof" lie?? Would "suspect" ammo have to be disassembled or fired in order to prove compliance or non compliance??

I also note there is no "grandfather" clause, no provision for keeping what was legal before passage of the act, only fixed timetable requirements, the creation of an entirely new registration database and tax system to pay for it, with no claimed or demonstratable benefit to public safety.

Additionally, if passed there would be a hell of a lot of non-compliance, both intentional and through simple ignorance of the new requirements. Along with yet another reason to scoff at such BS lawmaking....

I doubt this bill can become law, and even if it did pass, the simple fact that as of Jan 1 2024 all privately owned ammo in PA would become illegal (and I guarantee you there will NOT be ammo that meets the law's requirements available to the public by that date (if ever) I think that violates both PA and Fed constitutional guarantees.

The right to keep and bear arms DOES include the ammunition for said arms. Even in the Commonweath of Pennsylvania, despite some lawmakers, believing otherwise.

[eastbank]

what about reloaders, how are we to be regulated./

[44 AMP]

what about reloaders, how are we to be regulated./

By something other than the linked bill, which has no mention of reloading or reloaded ammunition in it, at all....thankfully...

[Tom Servo]

It's nice to see some consistency from the gun-control lobby. When they push a program and it fails, they just wait a few years and try again somewhere else.

They did this with the CoBIS database in New York. Utter failure.

They did it with the MD-IBIS program in Maryland. Their findings?

There have been no crime investigations that have been enhanced or expedited through the use of MD-IBIS.

I don't see it faring any better in Pennsylvania.

[DaleA]

Well, there is a video discussing this...(the title gives you a clue about the take the author has on Pennsylvania house bill 586)

Has Pennsylvania Come Up With the Dumbest Gun Law Yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihXhNwOfiTE

It's 7 minutes long.

Note: he does NOT answer the question about what is meant by the term "regulated firearms"...the 586 proposal APPARENTLY only applies to "regulated firearms" but I haven't found out what that means, that is, what firearms are "regulated firearms" but I suspect an AR would be in that category.

An interesting point is that Pennsylvania residents would have to get rid of all the ammunition they CURRENTLY own by January 1, 2024. (Unbelievable.)

Obviously this is so whacked it will never be implemented but that an elected official would even propose it is troubling.

[44 AMP]

The linked bill says "regulated firearms" are defined in section 6102 "definitions" but doesn't tell me where that is to be found...

I'm hoping someone with access and knowledge of what that is will tell us here, at TFL.

[cdoc42]

The most important part of that bill that I hope PA residents recognize is that it was introduced and supported 100% by Democrats. The political difficulty in Pa is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh areas being havens for the coordinated activity of the Democrat party.
A map that depicts red/blue counties reveals this and it would appear to the observer that PA is a red majority, but political intensity in areas other than Phila. area and Allegheny county is unfortunately not as strong as one might like.

[cdoc42]

RE: 44AMP's request for a thumbnail description of "regulated firearms" resides in the same search areas for me as it does for him. I didn't "bring it up," I didn't even mention it. I just provided the link to the bill.

[cdoc42]

Maybe this will help - but it still seems murky:

MENU


×
GUN LAWS
Pennsylvania Gun Laws
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 2014

The Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act defines “firearm” as “any pistol or revolver with a barrel less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel of less than 16 inches or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches.” However, several sections of the law include a broader definition that includes all firearms, i.e. handguns, rifles and shotguns, and pertains to that section only. The distinction should be closely noted when interpreting the statutes.

The state legislature has preempted the field of firearm regulation. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of the Commonwealth.


My addition: BUT- this pertains to any portion of the state except for the legislative arm of the PA government.
My guess is this HB 586 will die under the weight of the Second Amendment.

[Recycled bullet]

You will have to sign the law to see what's in it.

[cdoc42]

Recycle- you can read the entire bill with the link I entered at the beginning of the post.
It's not a law....yet. And from what I gather, it has no real momentum yet, either.

[MTT TL]

If I were a manufacturer I wouldn't sell ANY ammunition inside the state, government agency or not. It's practically impossible to comply with their law which is essentially an ammo ban. That is why state agencies are exempt. Truthfully though if anyone needs it, the LEAs need it the most for liability reasons.

Criminals certainly won't be reloading. They will buy ammo out of state on the gray market or steal it if they can.

[44 AMP]

If I were a manufacturer I wouldn't sell ANY ammunition inside the state, government agency or not.

ITs not law yet, and I doubt it will be, but if it was, and you were an ammo manufacturer, you COULDN'T sell ammo inside the state, to regular citizens, unless it met those stupid requirements. I do agree that if it were the law, I would not sell ammo to any state agency AND I would advertise the fact, like Barrett did in their ads, about not doing business with California govt in any way or form...

I am sick and tired of the "all for me, none for thee" attitude common in gun control laws. If its such a good idea, then it should ALSO APPY EQUALLY to ALL segments of the govt.

[ballardw]

If I were an ammo maker I make sure the ammo sold to the state has special identification indicating such. And charge a significant surcharge. Maybe even treat the brass so it was an identifiable color like bright pink...

[44 AMP]

If I were an ammo maker I make sure the ammo sold to the state has special identification indicating such. And charge a significant surcharge.

I understand the feeling but you likely wouldn't sell any ammo to the state like that. The state simply wouldn't buy it.

The BILL specifically exempts ammo for state use from the encoding requirements. This is, no doubt, done so the state will continue to be able to buy ammo, and buy it as cheap as possible.

The entire point of the law is to make ammo for private citizens either more expensive or simply unobtainable. DO note the requirement that all the existing ammo must be used up or disposed of by January 1 2024.

This isn't about any kind of aid to police in solving crimes, this is entirely about onerous, expensive and totally impractical requirements to restrict the availability of ammo to private citizens, only...

also about taxing the "encoded" ammo a nickel a round to pay for the state tracking it....thus further increasing the cost to the consumers...IF such ammo is even ever available.

[Mk VII]

The European Union is also pushing for something like this, and they will probably end up enacting some form of it, they have the clout to enforce their will on the European manufacturers.

[44 AMP]

The EU is pushing lots of things many Europeans don't like and don't want.

many say its falling apart because of the bureaucratic overreach.

If requirements like the PA bill are actually being pushed, I doubt European ammo makers will be any more receptive to total disruption and redesign of their production methods any more than US ammo makers would be.

[Aguila Blanca]

Does the technology even exist to do what this proposal calls for? To encode a serial number on the base of each bullet and a matching serial number on the inside of the case?

I doubt it.

[44 AMP]

Does the technology even exist to do what this proposal calls for?

Of course the technology exists, what doesn't exist is a practical way to do it or any VALID REASON to do it!.

Think about what this bill is demanding be done. Each bullet in a box of ammo and each case in that box and the box itself all marked with a unique id and every box of ammo needing to have its own unique ID marking.

Additionally purchaser information will be collected and kept in a database, which the buyer will support by paying a tax of $0.05 per round.

NOWHERE in the bill is there any mention of what the database will be used for. No mention anywhere of how it benefits the public OR the police, or anyone.

SO, the state will have a record of who you are, and what ammo you bought, when and where you bought it. TO do what with???? They don't say....

and don't forget that lovely line about how all ammo that is not encoded per the bill's requirements must be used up or destroyed by Jan 1 2024.

draconian doesn't seem a strong enough word.

[bamaranger]

PA has a history of odd, nonsensical gun/ammo/hunting laws. In recent years there was a move (by referendum or bill I do not know) to allow semi-auto rifles for big game....it did not pass. Not just "black rifles" but ANY semi sporting rifle. Wanna hunt with your great grandad's 100 plus year old Remington Model 8...sorry, not in PA. They also have had a 3 shot capacity limit on shotguns for small game (and turkey) for years. There is no Sunday hunting either.

PA has the same geo/political problem as some other states, the heavily populated urban areas dominate the political scene, and the rural folks essentially get ignored.

[44 AMP]

First point it not to confuse sport hunting regulation and restrictions with straight gun control laws.

Sport hunting regs are what the state Fish & Game folks feel are in the best interests of the sport (and the game) in their state, and often change in some particulars while others stay the same for decades.

I don't know about pre WWII but I don't think PA has allowed semi auto for deer hunting in living memory. The old joke about the Rem 760 being the "Amish machine gun" (because its the fastest firing gun allowed for deer in PA) is an example. Another joke is that the only reason the Rem 760 stayed in production as long as it did was because Ilion NY is fairly close to PA...

Every state has, or has had some game hunting rules that don't seem sensible. Some have been changed over time, some have not.

Where, and when I was growing up in NY, the "Southern Zone" (the largest part of the state) was shotgun only for deer & bear. 20ga or larger, buckshot or slugs. Then, a couple years before I was old enough to hunt big game, they changed the rule to slugs only for deer. But you could still use buckshot for black bear!!!

Didn't make sense, but was the rule. Since we lived and hunted in the northern zone it wasn't a concern in my family, other than the no buckshot for bucks was a state wide prohibition....

[MTT TL]

MkVII/ 44 AMP

The EU is making the Irish get rid of their cows. They can have my butter when they pry it from my cold, dead, slippery hands.

[44 AMP]

The EU is making the Irish get rid of their cows.

Could the Irish keep their cows if they encoded them with specific identifiers inside each cow?

[MTT TL]

If that will make them stop farting, I suppose it would be alright.

I'd liked it better when we told the government what it could and could not do.