So I kind of suck at shooting pistols

[TunnelRat]

To be clear I understand how MOA works. And I get why firearms are tested at longer distances (and I think your most recent example does a better job at getting that point across).

My point was to emphasize for others that relative differences in MOA remain the same and that what is more easily to observe farther out still occurs closer in. I say these things because in my experience people don’t always get them, even if you do.

[JohnKSa]

...that what is more easily to observe farther out still occurs closer in.

That's not quite all of it. Because rounding and measurement errors play a part in the real world, what is easy to observe farther out may actually be completely obscured or "in the noise" at closer ranges.

It's still occurring, but it could get difficult to demonstrate that the measured differences are significant. The differences may not even show up at all in the final results--or what appears to be a difference could actually be affected more by random variation from measurement error than by a significant difference in the actual accuracy.

[Recycled bullet]

This is why I like twenty rounds groups when testing handloads in pistols. I do it to attempt analyze the targets that day under those particular conditions imposed,

"floating the wheat from the pebbles "

and to hopefully separate operator skill/error from equipment consistency/mechanical accuracy of the guns and loads.

You can always shoot better! How intensely do you want it?

That's how good you will get and no better!

It chaffes me to read and see pictures in the gun magazines of when 9mm handguns are shot three or five times for group at seven yards. That doesn't tell me anything useful.


That's a participation trophy.

I shot for the very first time a Taurus gx4 at twenty five yards at paper plates with federal HST and they all stayed the plate.
It's a start

[JohnKSa]

It chaffes me to read and see pictures in the gun magazines of when 9mm handguns are shot three or five times for group at seven yards. That doesn't tell me anything useful.

It tells very little. The longer distances and larger group sizes are far more useful.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

That's not quite all of it. Because rounding and measurement errors play a part in the real world, what is easy to observe farther out may actually be completely obscured or "in the noise" at closer ranges.

It's still occurring, but it could get difficult to demonstrate that the measured differences are significant. The differences may not even show up at all in the final results--or what appears to be a difference could actually be affected more by random variation from measurement error than by a significant difference in the actual accuracy.

Hence the “more easy to observe” part of my post.

If you want to refine that further and explain why it’s easier to observe that’s fair.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

This may be an aside, and if so, I apologize. If defensive shooting is generally 10 yards or less, why do those who test the various handguns in the gun magazines always (it seems) do so at 25 yards? I often think that if I am ever in a threatening situation separated by at least 25 yards, my first thought (if possible) would be to retreat rather than engage.

25 yds is not much space, and it would be easy for the threat to follow you. 100yds, ok you might be able to lose them. But 25 is not much of a head start. Obviously get behind concealment and or cover. But thinking the threat cant or wont come after you will get you killed.

[Houndog]

A little off topic - but I think everyone should spend some time shooting at distances of at least 25 yards. Shooting at 12" plates at 7 yards is great if you are trying to improve your speed - and I suppose recreates the most realistic self-defense scenarios you could potentially find yourself in. But nothing exposes weaknesses in your fundamentals like shooting small targets at distance. Even a slight misalignment of the sights, a small flinch, a poor trigger press, etc. will absolutely be exposed at those distances.

[JohnKSa]

I agree 100%. I try to spend at least a little bit of time shooting at 25yards (or the farthest the range allows if it's not a full 25yards every shooting session. It provides a quick sanity check to make sure technique isn't slipping.