Winchester 147 grain RA9SXT

[cmdc]

I was going through my ammunition supply and I have a bunch of this and was wondering how it compares to Federal HST and others. I thought someone here would know.

Thanks

[Willie Lowman]

How does it compare to HST? It's not as good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrDu4gz0eo

[wild cat mccane]

"Same Exact (X) Thing" is not the same exact thing as the T series winchester.

Also, the 147 winchester is not better.

HST is currently the best. Strangely they killed off the best HST which was the 147gr +P. The Micro 150gr kicks arse and takes names in the tests I've seen.

Look to luckygunner 9mm test lab for results. No matter what others say, all bullets there are using the exact same gun and gel...so variation is zip in there.


1. "Civilian" Winchester Supreme SXT, 147 grain, nickled casing, copper bullet. This bullet is the one that doesn't perform very well, and supposedly uses the same type of reverse taper jacket as the LE ammo, minus the talons. IIRC the primer on these rounds is silver/nickle in color. 20 round boxes.

2. "old" Ranger SXT loads, 127gr +P+ and 147gr, brass cases, black coated bullets. Often mistakenly called "Black Talon", but is a later generation of the original black talon bullet-- IIRC. These have the "talons" and are better than Supreme SXT. Part numbers on the boxes include "SXT". 50 round boxes.

3. "New" Ranger T loads, 127gr +P+ and 147gr, copper bullets, nickled casings. Primers are brass colored, unlike #1 above. Has the "talons" like the Ranger SXT, but has been "tweaked" (hows that for a technical term?) to preform better in certain aspects of the FBI tests (the heavy clothing and barrier tests, IIRC) part numbers are for the 127gr +P+ RA9TA and the 147gr RA9T. 50 round boxes

So, despite popular belief, Talon isn't as good as the current T Series. But HST is better all around and cheaper.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

The Micro 150gr kicks arse and takes names in the tests I've seen.

I just looked at the Lucky Gunner tests for this. Pretty impressive.

[wild cat mccane]

and Lucky Gunner is using an M&P compact (3.5" barrel) to get those. Dang.

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by cmdc

I was going through my ammunition supply and I have a bunch of this and was wondering how it compares to Federal HST and others. I thought someone here would know.

Thanks

Depends what you have. Got a pic of the box?

If it's the RA9SXT and not the commercial Supreme, it was the next generation of the SXT (which was later on renamed the T-Series).

Winchester took a bit of a PR beating on the original Black Talon after the 101 California Street shooting in San Francisco. They basically restricted sales of the SXT-derived JHP that folded out with full-size, sharp pointed petals to LE customers and focused on the revised commercial version with shorter, rounded petals. No more "talons". The Supreme eXpansion Talon hunting bullet got off to a rough start in LE/Defensive ammo sales.

A later revision still used the SXT name on the box end flap, but changed the symbol code from RA9SXT to RA9T.

Then, a later revision replaced the SXT name on the end flap with T-Series, and kept the RA9T symbol code.

One of those revisions in the later 90's included revising the notching cuts so the petal expansion would occur at the lower velocities observed in the shorter barrels becoming more popular in LE.

Anyway, here's a pic of some boxes I have from several years ago, which show the change in the symbol code from RA9SXT to RA9T.


Here's a box of the next revision, when the SXT designation became T-Series (same symbol code of RA9T).


I don't have any pics of the later black T-Series boxes in the 147gr/9mm bullet weight.

I fired off a fair amount of the original BT, but I think I may still have a 20rd box of the original 147gr 9mm BT. I got tired of moving it around as "misc" ammo, and may have put it in my range ammo, though, or dropped it off at my former agency range for their range 9mm ammo bin of loose training/qual ammo. Dunno. Haven't seen it for a while. I know that some ammo collectors seem willing to pay ridiculous prices for the early BT rounds, but I didn't want to go to the trouble. Now here in CA ammo sales are face-to-face, through licensed ammo vendors, doing background checks. Sigh.

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

...

So, despite popular belief, Talon isn't as good as the current T Series. But HST is better all around and cheaper.

In a nutshell, yep. The original Black talon was good, but not great. I remember looking at the hardcopy ballistic testing material the FBI gave us in my firearms instructor class in '90, and being disappointed by its "performance" in those early tests. Other commercial JHP's did as well, if not better. The subsequent revisions made it an increasingly good bullet for LE ammo, though. Still is, for that matter.

Yep, the HST is a pretty good bullet, and the HST ammo is always budget-priced for LE compared to the other big 3 (being Rem BJHP, W-W T-Series and Speer GDHP). Dunno about the Hornady Critical Duty, as it's not seen much out this way, although I'm sure the FBI contract involved a great price.

When the T-Series and BJHP were too expensive, even at LE discounted prices, we could get pallets of the HST for bargain prices. It was available for immediate delivery when the Rem & W-W premium LE ammo was still backordered. Available and lower priced. What's not to like? It's still a bargain, comes to that (at least for LE state contract pricing out here). Cheapest of the premium loads going. Good thing it's also been revised over time to be a good performing load, too.

[cmdc]

What I have is the top box in your pic. I bought a case of it years ago. I also have a bunch of the T series as well, and a lot of the Federal HST. Thanks for all the info.

[wild cat mccane]

It's kinda funny. FBI brings back the 9mm and selects Hornady Duty round...but you never hear people recommending Hornady Duty. It's because Duty is a perpetrator with limited expansion. But Gold Gold (2020) G2 (has the poly tip fill) outperforms Duty for both. I'd bet money Gold Dot G2 is the FBI round next go around since Speer fixed G2 with the poly tip in 2020. Gold Dot G2.2 really.

If it were me, I'd try to sell your Ranger at a premium and just buy HST. HST Micro or 147 is pretty great. Know, Vista (owns CCI/Speer (Gold Dot) and Federal (HST) set a MAP in 2019 on HST and Gold of $40 on the 50rnd commercial LE boxes. No retailer can sell below $40 dollars a box. $20 dollar HST 50rnd boxes WILL NOT being coming back until that is removed. Rebates drop every once and a while, but $20 boxes are gone for good. I think you could sell Ranger thanks the mystical notion that Talon or Ranger is and always will be the best. It isn't. It wasn't. Kept HST which came out in 2002 low for a while, so I liked that

In the end, are we splitting hairs? Yeah. But if you are paying the same price, HST every single purchase.

Updated Bonded Golden Saber +P is actually pretty good in tests too. But only the +P 124gr bonded.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Know, Vista (owns CCI/Speer (Gold Dot) and Federal (HST) set a MAP in 2019 on HST and Gold of $40 on the 50rnd commercial LE boxes. No retailer can sell below $40 dollars a box. $20 dollar HST 50rnd boxes WILL NOT being coming back until that is removed.

I bought HST for less than $40 a box both at the end of 2019 and the beginning of 2020 ($29.95 and $27.99 respectively). In my experience certain distributors will either violate MAP directly or find ways to get around it for customers. Whether that proves to be true after the pandemic and the inflated prices of now, I don't know.

[wild cat mccane]

Also, PUNCH is suppose to be HST copper jacketed. If it is bonded or not or just uses a lesser blend of lead, it doesn't perform as well as HST...but good enough. Only thing is, PUNCH has never been sold as cheaper than HST, that that was the intent of releasing it. Doh.

You probably bought remainder stock. I too bought it for $20 from Target Sport after the MAP by Vista, but never since then that wasn't from a small place that was probably flying under Vista's radar.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

You probably bought remainder stock.

I don't believe that was the case for the purchase in 2020. Target Sports was quoting the new MAP as of July of 2019. The distributor in question had been out of stock for a while, then managed to secure some for sale. Again, my point is simply some places are willing to violate MAP (for how long is always a question).

[lefteye]

What is MAP as referred to in this thread? Does it refer to Military and Police?

[wild cat mccane]

MAP/MRP -- Minimum Advertised Price.
MSRP is just a suggested price.

MAP or MRP is a company's way of not allowing a retailer to go below a price if they choose to sell their product.

[wild cat mccane]

HST 50rnd LE overrun box sells to non LEO were temporarily stopped in 2018 for 3 months or so. When that didn't go down so well, Vista Outdoors pretended they didn't stop the sell of 50rnd LE boxes to the public and a few months later set the MAP/MRP on Gold Dot and HST.

LEO still get the regular pricing on HST and Gold Dot. Consumer $40 boxes is set Vista for the foreseeable forever with Vista's publicly reported financial records.

I bet somewhere along the line LEO did like the LEO pricing on HST and public pricing was about equal. Being an entirely unregulated monopoly on US ammo (Remington, Speer, Federal, Independence, Estate, CCI) Vista probably released we'd all buy at $40.

[lefteye]

So what distinguishes Minimum Average Price, i.e., MAP, from Maximum Average Price, i.e. MAP.

[wild cat mccane]

Not average. Advertised So Maximum Advertised Price isn't a term here.

MAP is used by brands to "protect the consumer's opinion of the brand being more valuable."

MSRP alerts a consumer when a retailer is selling too high.

IE, Sig sets the P365 MAP at $499. Everyone knows it is a good gun because it's a Sig at $500. All marketing. It's all nonsense that I'm sure left and right can agree is nonsense.