Comparing 2 Annealing Machines

Poconolg · July 1, 2018, 02:16 PM

How does the Annealeez machine compare to the MRB machine? Is it worth the extra money? Does anyone have any experience with either one?

hounddawg · July 1, 2018, 03:19 PM

no idea about the MRB, I have a Annealeeze which I have been using for a year now. It works as advertised, I have ran somewhere between 3 and 5 K rounds through mine. Here is a ongoing thread here with some modding suggestions and other users opinions

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...e-box.3946815/

RC20 · July 1, 2018, 03:28 PM

No idea what MRB is either.

I do induction but that is another long discussion!

ADIDAS69 · July 9, 2018, 12:13 AM

I’d have a hard time exaggerating how much I love my Giroud annealer with induction kit.

http://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-car...-annealer.html

It’s a bit pricey but it’s as near to perfect as I have used and I started by making my own out of used brake rotors. The ones you’ve selected seem to be modeled after the Giroud so either will likely work fine if you can add a second torch that might give you better even heating

JeepHammer · July 9, 2018, 09:59 AM

Giraud is set up for torch or electrical induction.

There are two basic types on the market, an angled bin (Giraud, Anealeeze, etc) and the flat table with holes (carousel), and drop through for closed coil electrical annealing as a third, but drop through doesn't adapt well to gas torch annealing.

This is an example of drop through electrical annealing.
http://www.ez-anneal.com

If you do one at a time, singles, and want to mess with the tool mount on each case, there is the AMP. Can't get AMP website to throw up a price, but it was about $1,500 the last time I looked. https://www.ampannealing.com/#

I like the Giraud for small batches (up to couple hundred, depending on case size).
$505 for the gas version http://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-car...-annealer.html
It's a pain to load the angled bin when doing large volume.
For bench & match shooters it's REALLY well through out, built pretty tough, and is quite easily upgraded with a more precise motor speed controller, electrical induction switches to cycle the induction unit, etc.
Giraud is a shooter & machinist, so it's built for long life and therefore not 'Cheap' in any way.

Anealeeze uses a rotating metal 'Can' to turn the case during heating. ($275 http://www.annealeez.com )
This is fine for torches and the metal 'Can' helps to keep heat out of the case body/head (heatsink).
*I STAND CORRECTED! The latest version uses solid blocks for rotation, can't tell if they are synthetic or metal*
The way it rotates in a slot doesn't seem to allow rotation of the case very well, this can lead to uneven heating.

The 'Carousel' type often don't rotate the case, which means two or three torches for anywhere even heating, but the speed of a Carousel lends itself well to adjusting the time component.

http://www.bench-source.com/id81.html

Carousel lends itself well to electro-magnetic induction when using a Ferrite 'C' core, but you will need to modify drive for a 'Start/Stop' function on the table top models, to stop the case in the opening of the Ferrite core. Most use gear motors so this isn't a big deal at all.
Common case feeders or drop tubes feed carousel table top versions quite well, which is a plus when doing volume.

Carousel type often use a metal disc (with holes) to rotate cases around the center motor, but these plates are often very thin leaving plenty of case distance between plate & electrical annealer, but I use a non-magnetic plate for better control of the annealing process.
Phenolic Resin sheets are cheap, easy to work (wood working tools) and work well with the heat component, don't interfere with the magnetic field.

*IF* you are handy with a wood router & hand drill, the carousel type is easiest/cheapest to build.
$20 eBay gear motor, $20 sheet of high temp board, surplus cord/switch from computer or other electrical appliance, a post of some kind for case feeder & your existing case feeder and you are off to the races.
If you can cut a circle with a router, drill some evenly spaced holes around the turntable, it's about a zero stress build.

Sometimes cost is an issue, and 'Handy' people can save a crap load of money with a half day of easy work.

hounddawg · July 9, 2018, 06:27 PM

I used to worry about the rotation being jerky at times on my Annealeeze but no longer. From what I know about heat theory common sense told me that with the thermal conductivity of brass being as high as it is meant that the heat energy transfer from one side to the other is damn near instantaneous. I then looked at the oxidation lines and sure enough they looked even all the way around. At least as even as Lapua factory brass. Then one day I saw this video.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/annealing/

I have no idea which factory line is in that video but those gas jets at the 40 sec mark are only heating one side of those cases and the cases are not rotating at all.

The final test and really the only thing that matters is how the ammo shot and I am really pleased with the results. Granted annealing is only one cog in the loading process but I want to think it helps and I can say for darn sure it doesn't hurt if done properly

Bill DeShivs · July 9, 2018, 08:11 PM

People have been annealing brass cases for decades with water and torch. Now you guys spend $1500 on a machine for annealing?
Why?
Are you such a good shot that the way you anneal your brass makes a difference?
Does the machine save you money? (No!)
Does it save you time?
Are you annealing so much brass the machine is needed.
Inquiring minds want to know.

**Unclenick** · July 9, 2018, 09:11 PM

Bill,

Some have hypothesized that annealing to a specific hardness will make start pressure more consistent. Bryan Litz did some tests that suggest the variations are too small, compered to bullet engraving force, to matter. On the other hand, customers using RSI's Load Force instrument to sort cartridges by the seating force measured for each round have given testimonials swearing that it tightened groups.

I recall the late Dan Hackett reporting he had a 300 Win Mag that refused to group to an moa until he started outside turning the case necks. He hadn't seen neck turning make much difference anywhere else. I had an M1A load that wouldn't group until I deburred the flasholes of the cases, which shrank groups 40%. It never made any difference with my other loads in that gun. I suspect precision annealing is going to turn out to be another one of those things that matters in some gun and load combinations, but not in others.

Meanwhile, annealing will at least extend case life, saving money that way. A lot of guys with torches and pans of water overheat the brass, ironically causing it to need annealing more frequently to prevent neck splits than it would do if proper annealing was done in the first place. Makework as compared to getting it right, but a lot less capital investment. But possibly not consistent enough for a load to which this matters.

hounddawg · July 10, 2018, 05:56 AM

Bill I process anywhere between 50 minimum to 100 plus rifle rounds per week, on average so I think I shoot enough to justify a 300 dollar machine. I had a backlog of cases last week and annealed over 200 in one sitting.

Does it help? I honestly do not know but it does not hurt. As long as I can get my ES's below 20 and SD's below 10 my $300 Annealeeze will have a place on my bench and I will continue to anneal after every firing until it is proven to be worthless

However if I were in the market right now I would hold off until Litz finishes his test and publishes it, hopefully by the end of the year. My own limited test showed no improvements from annealing as far as groups and velocity uniformity. I saw more improvement in my SD's and ES just by making sure the primer pockets were clean and uniformly seated than I did with annealing.

JeepHammer · July 10, 2018, 07:59 AM

I'll probably get baned for this...

While people talk about 'Annealing Lines' and 'Oxidation Lines', 'Glowing/Color' etc.
Users on THIS FORUM have conclusively proven through SCIENTIFIC TESTING, including scientific hardness testing, micrographs, X-ray Spectroscopy that the 'Ideal' annealing for cartridge brass has nothing to do with 'Color' or color change bands...

It's been conclusively proven you DO NOT have to use water ('Quench') to cool brass.

It's been conclusively proven that optimum annealing CAN NOT be reached with pliers, torch, water.

I've invested plenty in electro-magnetic induction, completely abandoning flame annealing.
Now I'm rethinking the process again, the 'Hot Pot' with dry media (glass beads, metal balls) is producing VERY good results...
But I haven't figured out how to do it in production volume, so I'm not abandoning electro-magnetic annealing for volume production.

I guess you could walk everywhere, or ride a horse, but I'm not giving up my vehicle even though it's much more expensive than walking... It's just a better way to get around, much like a timed machine is a much better way to control annealing.
I know for a fact that it doesn't take $1,500 or $2,000 to control heat & time since I build machines from scratch.
(Gear motor $20, Pulse Width Speed Controller $5, Digital Timer $5, Misc. Construction Materials $30-$40, being able to fix any part in the machine Priceless)

What are SDs under 10fps worth?...

And, since we are here because we are reloaders (the ONLY thing we have in common) the longevity of the brass should be enough on the face of subject.
Just the benefits of brass conditioning *Should* be enough to consider a CONTROLLABLE annealing process of some kind,
Consider, if not practice, the process of annealing...

hounddawg · July 10, 2018, 12:46 PM

I agree Jeep that discoloration on annealed cases is the result of impurities on the brass causing oxidation when heated. As you said you can have perfectly annealed brass with no discoloration whatsoever or poorly annealed brass with a ring. I would never set the timing of my machine using the color ring as a guide but that does not mean they are not useful.

In my world the brass will never seems to be perfectly clean and in 99.9% of my runs I get a ring from annealing. When one case gets a ring , seems they all do. There may be exceptions to that, I have no memory of any. Since my machine is digitally timed I examine the annealed cases for is a even ring around the case. That tells tells me the oxidation was even which means the heat was also probably even.

I have also noticed that the depth of the rings in all of my batches is pretty consistent. If I saw one of those rings more than a 1/4 or 3/8ths down the case from the shoulder I would probably toss that case because it is not normal. On the same line if I saw one case out of 50 with no line I would run it through again.

I do notice that some batches are darker than others. Just a guess but that might have to do with how well the cases were rinsed

anyway just my observations from the last year of using a Annealeeze

Poconolg · July 10, 2018, 02:13 PM

Does anyone know how to contact Annealeez if his contact link dont work and he has not answered e mail. Guess I will give him a while to answer but so far it looks like I will go with the more expensive MRB machine

Bill DeShivs · July 10, 2018, 03:16 PM

I'm NOT a reloader (yet.) But, I work with a lot of metals-brass included.
Please explain "optimum annealing."
Annealing means reducing a metal to it's lowest hardness (to me.)
Tempering reduces hardness. Is this what you are attempting?
I understand that quenching brass does nothing except cool it off, but torch annealing in water can achieve maximum softness without annealing the case head. Are you saying this doesn't work and doesn't increase case life?
My $1500 figure was picked up scanning this thread.

RC20 · July 10, 2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

People have been annealing brass cases for decades with water and torch. Now you guys spend $1500 on a machine for annealing?
Why?

Bill: First of all the OP asked a question to compare two specific annealing machines. He did not ask that we critique his choices.

While I do have a bias, note that I did not weigh in as he did not ask about my type of machine?

But as you opened Pandoras box, I anneal because it saves my brass from neck splits. I really hate having to replacement brass and over time it does save you money.

Your other comment on water and torches shows ignorance of the annealing process and quality control.

RC20 · July 10, 2018, 04:45 PM

Quote:

I'm NOT a reloader (yet.) But, I work with a lot of metals-brass included.
Please explain "optimum annealing."

So, you don't reload, you don't answer the OP question, you change the subject from his question to your questions.

I strongly suggest if you want to discuss annealing in general, you open your own thread or you look up past threads to start with as there is some very good and extensive discussion on annealing in General on this forum with some very intelligent people.

F. Guffey · July 10, 2018, 04:57 PM

Quote:

I'm NOT a reloader (yet.) But, I work with a lot of metals-brass included.
Please explain "optimum annealing."
Annealing means reducing a metal to it's lowest hardness (to me.)
Tempering reduces hardness. Is this what you are attempting?
I understand that quenching brass does nothing except cool it off, but torch annealing in water can achieve maximum softness without annealing the case head. Are you saying this doesn't work and doesn't increase case life?
My $1500 figure was picked up scanning this thread.

Bill DeShivs, Bill, none of our reloading/annealing members have/use annealing rules. What does that mean? They do not know why they do this and or that and they do not know why they do not do this and or that. When they hear 'anneal' they break into automatic type mode.

F. Guffey

JeepHammer · July 10, 2018, 06:23 PM

Bill DeShivs,
I have to be very careful what I write, it will be picked apart with assumptions, smothered in incorrect dogma, etc.

This is NOT steel.
Steel annealing rules DO NOT apply.

First, no 'Quench' is needed.
All introducing water does is add oxygen so the case tarnishes faster.
If the primer is still in place, water helps primer corrode to the case.

Second, if you see 'Color Change' while heating, you probably ruined the brass.
Maximum effects of annealing cartridge brass are reached BEFORE you can detect a 'Glow' or 'Color'.

Third, the 'Torch' discoloration (kind of a dull silver color) confirms you have separated zinc & other trace metals/minerals from the copper.
The lower 'Blue' line shows a concentrated heat effect zone, a tight band where brass has rapidly changed temprature.
(Right about where neck/shoulder separations happen)

----

There are three stages of annealing cartridge brass,
The first is 'Stress Relief', this starts about 450*F.
Heat energy expands the brass chrystaline structure and allows broken slivers and 'Dust' to situate where it's not jacking chrystals/grain apart.
Seriously broken structure is called 'micro-chrystaline' since the chrystals are so broken they appear as micro-dust at the magnification normally used for inspection.

The second is reabsorbing the slivers & dust into the chrystaline structure.
This happens around 650*F-750*F. And depends entirely on TIME at temprature.

The third is chrystaline structure absorbing other chrystals which leads to mono-chrystaline condition in the brass. This starts about 800-850*F., And you are burning away alloy components.
Under normal inspection magnification, chrystals look HUGE, like one big malformed/deformed chrystal.

Hardness testing (Vickers, Rockwell) will give you an idea of what effect your annealing process is having, but it's far from the 'Last Word'.
Micrographs are the only way to tell SPECIFICALLY/SCIENTIFICALLY what your process is doing.

For the home annealer, stage 2 is enough, up to about 750*F maximum for a couple seconds, then allow to air cool.
Not overly softened, no alloy components separated or burned off, very close to optimum without micrograph samples & inspection, and necks as consistent as a home reloaded can hope for.

Now, ONE gas torch is never going to do as good a job as a 'Hot Pot' or electromagnetic induction simply because it's throwing WAY too much heat to be consistent in the TIME FRAME needed for the brass to complete as much of the annealing cycle as possible.
Oxygen engorged 'Jet' torches are just WAY too hot, and you can't convince people to use lower temprature for longer time so the process can progress without overheating the brass.

Manufacturers used long lines of open flames, no 'Jet' tips, to (relatively speaking) gradually bring the temp up and maintain it.
No maker 'Quenches' since it does nothing for the brass and introduces moisture/oxygen/contaminants.
Virtually all US manufacturers use electromagnetic induction to anneal the brass necks for sizing,
Hot pellet bins for annealing the 'Cups' before they are 'Drawn' (pin pressed) out into case tubes.
These annealing processes are carefully heat controlled & precisely timed...

Since there are exactly two guys on the forum that can do/have done micrographs,
And exactly one that produces brass from brass roll stock (cases from scratch),
I would be careful about taking the dogma about annealing as 'Fact'.
Science produces actual FACTS, while dogma IS NOT SCIENCE, and just gets the same old, less than useful results.

JeepHammer · July 10, 2018, 07:04 PM

RC20,
You have to spell it out because the ignorant (uneducated on the subject) don't know what they don't know... You have to start from scratch...

The second, MUCH HARDER to teach are the 'Dogma Experts',
They have read the same crap so long they 'Believe' they are experts, and if you make any headway it's a minor miracle.

The third is the 'It Don't Work' bunch.
No hope for them! Don't believe in science, most certainly are not going to take the last 60 years in science advancements into account.
They tried it 40-50 years ago with pliers & a plumbers torch, didn't own measuring tools to check if cases were better formed, didn't own a chronograph to check velocities, didn't get tighter groups (because they weren't that good of shots to begin with) and declared it 'Crap'... And NOTHING is going to change their minds...

The simple fact of the matter is, we are on our own.
Every manufacturer has their own trade secret process (emphasis on TRADE SECRET) and they aren't publishing...
Cartridge brass information is scarce, I had to hire a former factory engineer (and he wasn't cheap!).

The 'Pliers & Candle' or 'Pliers & Torch' are as outdated as flintlocks...
You and I both found out the 'Standard' the dogma recommends (thermocromatic paint/tempilaq) reacts with copper and doesn't give anywhere accurate readings of temprature.
When 800*F melts well before 750*F, there is something seriously wrong, but of course, the dogma dumpers shouted that down, completely ignoring it... And still recommending Tempilaq for the 'Scientific' way to do things!

To each their own, I have issue with selling it as 'Scientific'...

July 1, 2018, 02:16 PM	#1
Poconolg Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2015 Posts: 171	Comparing 2 Annealing Machines How does the Annealeez machine compare to the MRB machine? Is it worth the extra money? Does anyone have any experience with either one?

July 1, 2018, 03:19 PM	#2
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	no idea about the MRB, I have a Annealeeze which I have been using for a year now. It works as advertised, I have ran somewhere between 3 and 5 K rounds through mine. Here is a ongoing thread here with some modding suggestions and other users opinions http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...e-box.3946815/ __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 1, 2018, 03:28 PM	#3
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	No idea what MRB is either. I do induction but that is another long discussion! __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

July 9, 2018, 12:13 AM	#4
ADIDAS69 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2009 Location: Seattle Posts: 381	I’d have a hard time exaggerating how much I love my Giroud annealer with induction kit. http://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-car...-annealer.html It’s a bit pricey but it’s as near to perfect as I have used and I started by making my own out of used brake rotors. The ones you’ve selected seem to be modeled after the Giroud so either will likely work fine if you can add a second torch that might give you better even heating __________________ "...I would walk with my people if I could find them..."

July 9, 2018, 09:59 AM	#5
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Giraud is set up for torch or electrical induction. There are two basic types on the market, an angled bin (Giraud, Anealeeze, etc) and the flat table with holes (carousel), and drop through for closed coil electrical annealing as a third, but drop through doesn't adapt well to gas torch annealing. This is an example of drop through electrical annealing. http://www.ez-anneal.com If you do one at a time, singles, and want to mess with the tool mount on each case, there is the AMP. Can't get AMP website to throw up a price, but it was about $1,500 the last time I looked. https://www.ampannealing.com/# I like the Giraud for small batches (up to couple hundred, depending on case size). $505 for the gas version http://www.giraudtool.com/giraud-car...-annealer.html It's a pain to load the angled bin when doing large volume. For bench & match shooters it's REALLY well through out, built pretty tough, and is quite easily upgraded with a more precise motor speed controller, electrical induction switches to cycle the induction unit, etc. Giraud is a shooter & machinist, so it's built for long life and therefore not 'Cheap' in any way. Anealeeze uses a rotating metal 'Can' to turn the case during heating. ($275 http://www.annealeez.com ) This is fine for torches and the metal 'Can' helps to keep heat out of the case body/head (heatsink). I STAND CORRECTED! The latest version uses solid blocks for rotation, can't tell if they are synthetic or metal The way it rotates in a slot doesn't seem to allow rotation of the case very well, this can lead to uneven heating. The 'Carousel' type often don't rotate the case, which means two or three torches for anywhere even heating, but the speed of a Carousel lends itself well to adjusting the time component. http://www.bench-source.com/id81.html Carousel lends itself well to electro-magnetic induction when using a Ferrite 'C' core, but you will need to modify drive for a 'Start/Stop' function on the table top models, to stop the case in the opening of the Ferrite core. Most use gear motors so this isn't a big deal at all. Common case feeders or drop tubes feed carousel table top versions quite well, which is a plus when doing volume. Carousel type often use a metal disc (with holes) to rotate cases around the center motor, but these plates are often very thin leaving plenty of case distance between plate & electrical annealer, but I use a non-magnetic plate for better control of the annealing process. Phenolic Resin sheets are cheap, easy to work (wood working tools) and work well with the heat component, don't interfere with the magnetic field. IF you are handy with a wood router & hand drill, the carousel type is easiest/cheapest to build. $20 eBay gear motor, $20 sheet of high temp board, surplus cord/switch from computer or other electrical appliance, a post of some kind for case feeder & your existing case feeder and you are off to the races. If you can cut a circle with a router, drill some evenly spaced holes around the turntable, it's about a zero stress build. Sometimes cost is an issue, and 'Handy' people can save a crap load of money with a half day of easy work. Last edited by JeepHammer; July 9, 2018 at 10:28 AM.

July 9, 2018, 06:27 PM	#6
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I used to worry about the rotation being jerky at times on my Annealeeze but no longer. From what I know about heat theory common sense told me that with the thermal conductivity of brass being as high as it is meant that the heat energy transfer from one side to the other is damn near instantaneous. I then looked at the oxidation lines and sure enough they looked even all the way around. At least as even as Lapua factory brass. Then one day I saw this video. https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/annealing/ I have no idea which factory line is in that video but those gas jets at the 40 sec mark are only heating one side of those cases and the cases are not rotating at all. The final test and really the only thing that matters is how the ammo shot and I am really pleased with the results. Granted annealing is only one cog in the loading process but I want to think it helps and I can say for darn sure it doesn't hurt if done properly __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 9, 2018, 08:11 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	People have been annealing brass cases for decades with water and torch. Now you guys spend $1500 on a machine for annealing? Why? Are you such a good shot that the way you anneal your brass makes a difference? Does the machine save you money? (No!) Does it save you time? Are you annealing so much brass the machine is needed. Inquiring minds want to know. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 9, 2018, 09:11 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Bill, Some have hypothesized that annealing to a specific hardness will make start pressure more consistent. Bryan Litz did some tests that suggest the variations are too small, compered to bullet engraving force, to matter. On the other hand, customers using RSI's Load Force instrument to sort cartridges by the seating force measured for each round have given testimonials swearing that it tightened groups. I recall the late Dan Hackett reporting he had a 300 Win Mag that refused to group to an moa until he started outside turning the case necks. He hadn't seen neck turning make much difference anywhere else. I had an M1A load that wouldn't group until I deburred the flasholes of the cases, which shrank groups 40%. It never made any difference with my other loads in that gun. I suspect precision annealing is going to turn out to be another one of those things that matters in some gun and load combinations, but not in others. Meanwhile, annealing will at least extend case life, saving money that way. A lot of guys with torches and pans of water overheat the brass, ironically causing it to need annealing more frequently to prevent neck splits than it would do if proper annealing was done in the first place. Makework as compared to getting it right, but a lot less capital investment. But possibly not consistent enough for a load to which this matters. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 10, 2018, 05:56 AM	#9
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Bill I process anywhere between 50 minimum to 100 plus rifle rounds per week, on average so I think I shoot enough to justify a 300 dollar machine. I had a backlog of cases last week and annealed over 200 in one sitting. Does it help? I honestly do not know but it does not hurt. As long as I can get my ES's below 20 and SD's below 10 my $300 Annealeeze will have a place on my bench and I will continue to anneal after every firing until it is proven to be worthless However if I were in the market right now I would hold off until Litz finishes his test and publishes it, hopefully by the end of the year. My own limited test showed no improvements from annealing as far as groups and velocity uniformity. I saw more improvement in my SD's and ES just by making sure the primer pockets were clean and uniformly seated than I did with annealing. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 10, 2018, 07:59 AM	#10
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	I'll probably get baned for this... While people talk about 'Annealing Lines' and 'Oxidation Lines', 'Glowing/Color' etc. Users on THIS FORUM have conclusively proven through SCIENTIFIC TESTING, including scientific hardness testing, micrographs, X-ray Spectroscopy that the 'Ideal' annealing for cartridge brass has nothing to do with 'Color' or color change bands... It's been conclusively proven you DO NOT have to use water ('Quench') to cool brass. It's been conclusively proven that optimum annealing CAN NOT be reached with pliers, torch, water. I've invested plenty in electro-magnetic induction, completely abandoning flame annealing. Now I'm rethinking the process again, the 'Hot Pot' with dry media (glass beads, metal balls) is producing VERY good results... But I haven't figured out how to do it in production volume, so I'm not abandoning electro-magnetic annealing for volume production. I guess you could walk everywhere, or ride a horse, but I'm not giving up my vehicle even though it's much more expensive than walking... It's just a better way to get around, much like a timed machine is a much better way to control annealing. I know for a fact that it doesn't take $1,500 or $2,000 to control heat & time since I build machines from scratch. (Gear motor $20, Pulse Width Speed Controller $5, Digital Timer $5, Misc. Construction Materials $30-$40, being able to fix any part in the machine Priceless) What are SDs under 10fps worth?... And, since we are here because we are reloaders (the ONLY thing we have in common) the longevity of the brass should be enough on the face of subject. Just the benefits of brass conditioning Should be enough to consider a CONTROLLABLE annealing process of some kind, Consider, if not practice, the process of annealing...

July 10, 2018, 12:46 PM	#11
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	I agree Jeep that discoloration on annealed cases is the result of impurities on the brass causing oxidation when heated. As you said you can have perfectly annealed brass with no discoloration whatsoever or poorly annealed brass with a ring. I would never set the timing of my machine using the color ring as a guide but that does not mean they are not useful. In my world the brass will never seems to be perfectly clean and in 99.9% of my runs I get a ring from annealing. When one case gets a ring , seems they all do. There may be exceptions to that, I have no memory of any. Since my machine is digitally timed I examine the annealed cases for is a even ring around the case. That tells tells me the oxidation was even which means the heat was also probably even. I have also noticed that the depth of the rings in all of my batches is pretty consistent. If I saw one of those rings more than a 1/4 or 3/8ths down the case from the shoulder I would probably toss that case because it is not normal. On the same line if I saw one case out of 50 with no line I would run it through again. I do notice that some batches are darker than others. Just a guess but that might have to do with how well the cases were rinsed anyway just my observations from the last year of using a Annealeeze __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

July 10, 2018, 02:13 PM	#12
Poconolg Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2015 Posts: 171	Does anyone know how to contact Annealeez if his contact link dont work and he has not answered e mail. Guess I will give him a while to answer but so far it looks like I will go with the more expensive MRB machine

July 10, 2018, 03:16 PM	#13
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	I'm NOT a reloader (yet.) But, I work with a lot of metals-brass included. Please explain "optimum annealing." Annealing means reducing a metal to it's lowest hardness (to me.) Tempering reduces hardness. Is this what you are attempting? I understand that quenching brass does nothing except cool it off, but torch annealing in water can achieve maximum softness without annealing the case head. Are you saying this doesn't work and doesn't increase case life? My $1500 figure was picked up scanning this thread. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

July 10, 2018, 06:23 PM	#17
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Bill DeShivs, I have to be very careful what I write, it will be picked apart with assumptions, smothered in incorrect dogma, etc. This is NOT steel. Steel annealing rules DO NOT apply. First, no 'Quench' is needed. All introducing water does is add oxygen so the case tarnishes faster. If the primer is still in place, water helps primer corrode to the case. Second, if you see 'Color Change' while heating, you probably ruined the brass. Maximum effects of annealing cartridge brass are reached BEFORE you can detect a 'Glow' or 'Color'. Third, the 'Torch' discoloration (kind of a dull silver color) confirms you have separated zinc & other trace metals/minerals from the copper. The lower 'Blue' line shows a concentrated heat effect zone, a tight band where brass has rapidly changed temprature. (Right about where neck/shoulder separations happen) ---- There are three stages of annealing cartridge brass, The first is 'Stress Relief', this starts about 450F. Heat energy expands the brass chrystaline structure and allows broken slivers and 'Dust' to situate where it's not jacking chrystals/grain apart. Seriously broken structure is called 'micro-chrystaline' since the chrystals are so broken they appear as micro-dust at the magnification normally used for inspection. The second is reabsorbing the slivers & dust into the chrystaline structure. This happens around 650F-750F. And depends entirely on TIME at temprature. The third is chrystaline structure absorbing other chrystals which leads to mono-chrystaline condition in the brass. This starts about 800-850F., And you are burning away alloy components. Under normal inspection magnification, chrystals look HUGE, like one big malformed/deformed chrystal. Hardness testing (Vickers, Rockwell) will give you an idea of what effect your annealing process is having, but it's far from the 'Last Word'. Micrographs are the only way to tell SPECIFICALLY/SCIENTIFICALLY what your process is doing. For the home annealer, stage 2 is enough, up to about 750F maximum for a couple seconds, then allow to air cool. Not overly softened, no alloy components separated or burned off, very close to optimum without micrograph samples & inspection, and necks as consistent as a home reloaded can hope for. Now, ONE gas torch is never going to do as good a job as a 'Hot Pot' or electromagnetic induction simply because it's throwing WAY too much heat to be consistent in the TIME FRAME needed for the brass to complete as much of the annealing cycle as possible. Oxygen engorged 'Jet' torches are just WAY too hot, and you can't convince people to use lower temprature for longer time so the process can progress without overheating the brass. Manufacturers used long lines of open flames, no 'Jet' tips, to (relatively speaking) gradually bring the temp up and maintain it. No maker 'Quenches' since it does nothing for the brass and introduces moisture/oxygen/contaminants. Virtually all US manufacturers use electromagnetic induction to anneal the brass necks for sizing, Hot pellet bins for annealing the 'Cups' before they are 'Drawn' (pin pressed) out into case tubes. These annealing processes are carefully heat controlled & precisely timed... Since there are exactly two guys on the forum that can do/have done micrographs, And exactly one that produces brass from brass roll stock (cases from scratch), I would be careful about taking the dogma about annealing as 'Fact'. Science produces actual FACTS, while dogma IS NOT SCIENCE, and just gets the same old, less than useful results. Last edited by JeepHammer; July 10, 2018 at 06:34 PM.*

July 10, 2018, 07:04 PM	#18
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	RC20, You have to spell it out because the ignorant (uneducated on the subject) don't know what they don't know... You have to start from scratch... The second, MUCH HARDER to teach are the 'Dogma Experts', They have read the same crap so long they 'Believe' they are experts, and if you make any headway it's a minor miracle. The third is the 'It Don't Work' bunch. No hope for them! Don't believe in science, most certainly are not going to take the last 60 years in science advancements into account. They tried it 40-50 years ago with pliers & a plumbers torch, didn't own measuring tools to check if cases were better formed, didn't own a chronograph to check velocities, didn't get tighter groups (because they weren't that good of shots to begin with) and declared it 'Crap'... And NOTHING is going to change their minds... The simple fact of the matter is, we are on our own. Every manufacturer has their own trade secret process (emphasis on TRADE SECRET) and they aren't publishing... Cartridge brass information is scarce, I had to hire a former factory engineer (and he wasn't cheap!). The 'Pliers & Candle' or 'Pliers & Torch' are as outdated as flintlocks... You and I both found out the 'Standard' the dogma recommends (thermocromatic paint/tempilaq) reacts with copper and doesn't give anywhere accurate readings of temprature. When 800F melts well before 750F, there is something seriously wrong, but of course, the dogma dumpers shouted that down, completely ignoring it... And still recommending Tempilaq for the 'Scientific' way to do things! To each their own, I have issue with selling it as 'Scientific'...