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Old January 17, 2020, 12:01 PM   #26
TBM900
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Originally Posted by FITASC View Post
An unloaded gun is a rock.
No, it's simply an unloaded gun.

This notion that one cannot access and make a weapon ready having been startled awake at 3am is silly. If you cannot muster the composure and dexterity to insert a magazine, rack a slide, flick off a safety, etc, then you aren't going to be able to effectively activate a WML, ID a threat vs non threat, align sights, and squeeze off properly placed shots.

I'm not advocating one way to store a firearm versus another.
It's just silly to assert one cannot accomplish A, but can accomplish B... when both A and B are similar.
In fact, in this example, making a weapon ready is the "easier" of the two.


Quote:
If someone breaks in at 3AM and you're in a sound sleep when all hell breaks loose, are you sure you will have the ability to reach your gun under your mattress and then load the chamber in time to prevent a tragedy?
If you've set yourself up for such a scenario, then you've already failed.
Point being that you allowed someone to get that far into your home without being notified in time to properly react.

99.99999999999% of criminals aren't popping skylights with charges and repelling in with guns blazing.
It is up to you to set up such defenses that buy you time, distance, etc.
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Last edited by TBM900; January 17, 2020 at 12:23 PM.
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Old January 17, 2020, 12:08 PM   #27
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With children in the house, I want the gun to be a rock (for the child) therefore the idea to keep the chamber empty since for them it is an extra step before they get injured, and racking the slide on a handgun with a heavy recoil spring can be almost impossible for a small child. It is even hard for my wife!

Yes, I would have to open the safe and rack the slide in the case of a home invasion, but it is a conscious trade off. The danger that firearms pose to children is much much greater than the risk of a home invasion, I think.

But again, I want to say reiterate that for conceal carry I do not believe in carrying empty chamber as one may not have time to rack the slide when under assault.

And at home, if I wake up and the perp is already pointing a gun at me while I lie in bed, it is already too late.

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Old January 17, 2020, 12:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pistoler0 View Post
With children in the house, I want the gun to be a rock (for the child) therefore the idea to keep the chamber empty.

Yes, I would have to open the safe and rack the slide in the case of a home invasion, but it is a conscious trade off. The danger that firearms pose to children is much much greater than the risk of a home invasion, I think.
You are quite correct.

I grew up on a large multi-section ranch, guns were a tool and at hand at all times, available to all ages. But that is a much different environment than most are used to.

Today, many of the youngins in our family are "city kids" and not used to firearms being so readily accessible. So when certain family visits us here or at our cabin, all firearms are locked up, no exceptions unless it is on mine or my wives person.
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Old January 17, 2020, 01:07 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Pistoler0 View Post
I really really like how your gun is in a holster when opening that push button safe. Mine is not (as you can see in the picture in the OP) so I must be careful when grabbing it from the safe, although my gun has a thumb safety and the safety is engaged when the gun is in the safe.

What safe is it?
It's a FAS1 Safe. It also opens automatically with a gas spring when unlocked making it a true one-handed operation.
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Old January 17, 2020, 01:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Pistoler0 View Post
Yeah maybe not. I do not believe in empty chamber carry either. The problem here is kids.

I sleep with the door cracked open, next to the kids' room. They do from time to time come into our room or crawl in bed with us. That's the reason for the empty chamber.
Why do you not trust electronic vaults? They are accessible via keys as well.

I would under no circumstances have a pistol loaded in the house that is not on your person or in a vault/locked case. In addition to your kids, they have friends who will come over. The danger is high and you only need one screw up.

When the kids were young we used electronic vaults. They could be opened by touch and were safe from the kidlets.
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Old January 18, 2020, 07:17 PM   #31
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With children in the house, I want the gun to be a rock (for the child) therefore the idea to keep the chamber empty since for them it is an extra step before they get injured, and racking the slide on a handgun with a heavy recoil spring can be almost impossible for a small child. It is even hard for my wife!
I can't begin to tell you just how wrong you are. NEVER underestimate children particularly when it involves firearms. And I'm talking from personal experience. The consequences can be horrendous and a sight you do not want to see.
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Old January 20, 2020, 09:55 PM   #32
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I bneleiev many jurisdictions have laws regarding leaving guns where minors can get access. Maybe it is time to review those. I dont have kids, grandkids occasionally.

Guns are in an electronically locked box.

Had grand kid visitor last Aug. Id been to the range a few days before they arrived. I left one holstered gun on the desk in the BR/den. Grandson came down and informed Dad and I that there was a gun in the room. It was secured.
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Old January 21, 2020, 08:05 AM   #33
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Grandson came down and informed Dad and I that there was a gun in the room.
That's a good kid...and well trained; he helped you correct your mistake!...I know you passed out the 'attaboys' to a responsible young man. Well done sir & kudos to his dad as well.

As an addendum to my previous post #17, the door to my downstairs gun & wood working shop is locked with children in the house or expected.

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Old January 21, 2020, 10:31 AM   #34
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Another possibility to consider:
https://ontargettraining.us/the-safety-bullet/
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Old January 21, 2020, 11:33 AM   #35
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Kids in the house, no gun on the nightstand. You never know what kids will do.
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Old January 22, 2020, 07:50 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Another possibility to consider:
https://ontargettraining.us/the-safety-bullet/
Not sure how that's any different than just not having one in the chamber..gotta rack the slide to chamber a round in either case.
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Old January 22, 2020, 10:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Another possibility to consider:
https://ontargettraining.us/the-safety-bullet/


All the kid has to do is cycle the action and it defeats the device.
Which (my experience with untrained kids) most will instinctively do on their own from seeing TV/movies.
On the other hand, if the owner forgets or falls back to old habits under duress and squeezes....

I'll just stick with Simplex accessed lock boxes.
No keys...
No electronics...
No tumblers to fumble...
No numbers to see in the dark...

Just a simple touch pattern, in any combination of my choosing
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Old January 23, 2020, 03:15 PM   #38
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Not sure how that's any different than just not having one in the chamber..gotta rack the slide to chamber a round in either case.
The added benefit that I see in the "Safety Bullet" (vs keeping an empty chamber) is that it disables the firearm should someone attempt to shoot it with the device in.

This would be good for kids, because as it was mentioned before, young ones might attempt to rack the slide after pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, following what they see in media/video games.

TBM900: "All the kid has to do is cycle the action and it defeats the device."
Yes, but unless the kid knows about the safety bullet in advance (and who in their right mind would explain to a child how to disable the safety device) what the kid would do first is pull the trigger, and that would disable the firearm.

This would also be the case if an intruder got hold of the firearm first. I see there is merit in this safety device. The only downside is having to rack the slide before making the firearm ready, but with kids this might be a very worthwhile trade off.

Last edited by Pistoler0; January 23, 2020 at 03:30 PM.
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Old January 23, 2020, 09:37 PM   #39
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My kids are grown and gone so I don't have the delimma you have, but I can honestly say the safest place to keep a handgun in a housefull of inquisitive kiddos (and their friends) is on your person.
Exactly. Then you have control and know the status of your weapon at all times. If you are not controlling it then have it locked up.

The other layer is education. Do not make guns some mysterious object of desire to be played with.

Remove the mystery, teach them, and start those lifetime safety habits now.
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Old January 24, 2020, 08:08 AM   #40
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Don't want to argue this very small point but how would the kid know this 'safety round' was in there vs an unloaded chamber. Either squeeze the trigger, and it 'clicks' or squeeze the trigger and nothing happens(chamber empty)..but it either case, if the kid knows to rack the slide-bad news..
Quote:
what the kid would do first is pull the trigger, and that would disable the firearm.
It really doesn't 'disable the firearm', does it? The kid can still rack the slide. It's akin to a snap cap, correct? 'Disable' would mean he can't rack the slide at all.
Quote:
• Load the Safety Bullet® in your firing chamber
• When the trigger is pulled, the Safety Bullet® locks itself in the firing chamber
• The gun becomes an instant paperweight
• If you need to use your firearm, simply cycle the action to eject the Safety Bullet® and load a live round
Guess I don't get it..how this is different than a snapcap.
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Old January 24, 2020, 09:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
Don't want to argue this very small point but how would the kid know this 'safety round' was in there vs an unloaded chamber. Either squeeze the trigger, and it 'clicks' or squeeze the trigger and nothing happens(chamber empty)..but it either case, if the kid knows to rack the slide-bad news..


It really doesn't 'disable the firearm', does it? The kid can still rack the slide. It's akin to a snap cap, correct? 'Disable' would mean he can't rack the slide at all.


Guess I don't get it..how this is different than a snapcap.
My understanding is that you chamber this round and that way if a kid finds your gun and pulls the trigger the round gets jammed in the gun and it won't cycle. You have to dislodge the round by sticking a rod into the muzzle and pushing on the round.

The reason most people don't like this device is that if you forget to eject the round before you go to use your gun, when you pull the trigger your gun is now disabled until you find something to stick in the muzzle to remove the round. Not a good system for a defensive gun in my opinion. If you did go this route, you better train that way too.
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Old January 24, 2020, 10:34 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
Don't want to argue this very small point but how would the kid know this 'safety round' was in there vs an unloaded chamber. Either squeeze the trigger, and it 'clicks' or squeeze the trigger and nothing happens(chamber empty)..but it either case, if the kid knows to rack the slide-bad news..

Quote:
what the kid would do first is pull the trigger, and that would disable the firearm.
It really doesn't 'disable the firearm', does it? The kid can still rack the slide. It's akin to a snap cap, correct? 'Disable' would mean he can't rack the slide at all.
No, it is not akin to a snap cap. A snap cap is inert. This safety bullet is loaded with a primer, and a special bullet. The primer fires the bullet, with then expands or extends arms or something I've forgotten (it has been awhile since I first came across it) that causes the action to lock up. The gun has to be disassembled to clear it and return it to use.

The solution to the possibility that a kid might automatically rack the slide is to either leave the chamber empty with the safety bullet first in the magazine, or to load two of the safety bullets before any live ammo.

I am not a shill for the product, but I do see it as another option. Whether or not it's appropriate for your situation depends on the specifics of you and your situation. I live alone, so I don't need it. If I still had kids in the house I would give it a hard look. Don't dismiss it if you haven't even taken the time to look at it and understand what it is and how it works.
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Old January 24, 2020, 03:19 PM   #43
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I wasn't familiar with this product until reading this thread, but I did follow the link, read about it, and watch the video. The big thing that bothers me about this is that the kid who sneaks around and pulls the trigger on a pistol is not going to be a kid who tells Mom and Dad or Grandma and Grampa that they did it. Then the next time the pistol is picked up it doesn't fire. Big difference in that happening at the range or under duress.
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Old January 25, 2020, 08:14 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by FAS1 View Post
My understanding is that you chamber this round and that way if a kid finds your gun and pulls the trigger the round gets jammed in the gun and it won't cycle. You have to dislodge the round by sticking a rod into the muzzle and pushing on the round.

The reason most people don't like this device is that if you forget to eject the round before you go to use your gun, when you pull the trigger your gun is now disabled until you find something to stick in the muzzle to remove the round. Not a good system for a defensive gun in my opinion. If you did go this route, you better train that way too.
Quote:
This safety bullet is loaded with a primer, and a special bullet. The primer fires the bullet, with then expands or extends arms or something I've forgotten (it has been awhile since I first came across it) that causes the action to lock up. The gun has to be disassembled to clear it and return it to use.
From the ad website-Just don't see the 'rod down muzzle' or 'disassemble' part.
Quote:
• If you need to use your firearm, simply cycle the action to eject the Safety Bullet® and load a live round
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Old January 25, 2020, 09:27 AM   #45
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Just my take/opinion, a gun with a empty chamber is like driving your car thinking you'll get your seat belt on before the crash.
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Old January 25, 2020, 11:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
From the ad website-Just don't see the 'rod down muzzle' or 'disassemble' part.
Then you haven't watched the video on the website. It's at the 1:25 minute mark. You are correct that you don't have to disassemble the gun.
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Old January 25, 2020, 12:52 PM   #47
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Just my take/opinion, a gun with a empty chamber is like driving your car thinking you'll get your seat belt on before the crash.
Exactly.

Start teaching them as soon as they can understand the difference between yes and no. That is part of your responsibility as parent.

When my kids were born, I bought a gun safe. My guns were either in my immediate control or locked up until they became educated on them. I also got a pocket pistol (.40 cal AMT Backup) to carry at home, a pistol safe by the nightstand, and kept my loaded shotgun in the safe. The pocket pistol got me to the nightstand which got me to shotgun. The pocket pistol was there for the immediate threat.

My girls grew up with guns and even had their own at an early age. They had their own adult pellet rifles and I set up an indoor range with pellet traps for them. There were never any mysteries in the gun safe to them. Anytime they were curious we opened it up together and took the time to pass on a culture of safety. They learned, earned trust, and were allowed to take responsibility. I watched them pass that on to their friends in the backyard and at the local range. By the time High School came around, both ended up on the JROTC rifle team at their school and in college, ROTC.

My Home Defense also changed as my children grew up. I eventually went to a loaded duty pistol"in the nightstand" and a shotgun stashed nearby. All of them ready to perform their intended duties.

Leaving a loaded weapon accessible to young, uneducated children is irresponsible. Leaving a weapon in a condition is not able to perform its intended duty of defending your family is also irresponsible. Your Home Defense tactics and tools must adapt to fulfill both.
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Old January 25, 2020, 02:35 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USNRet93
From the ad website-Just don't see the 'rod down muzzle' or 'disassemble' part.
Quote:
• If you need to use your firearm, simply cycle the action to eject the Safety Bullet® and load a live round
This is if the gun has NOT been fired and the action locked up by the safety bullet. Once the safety bullet has been fired, you cannot cycle the action.
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Old January 25, 2020, 08:58 PM   #49
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Safety Bullet®
Wow....just wow.
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Old January 26, 2020, 07:59 AM   #50
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To me it's a pretty simple matter of odds. I have a weapon at home in case someone of ill intent breaks in AND is intent on harming us, not just grabbing the nearest item and dashing out again. I live in boring suburbia where the worst crime in 15 years was a string of petty thefts from unlocked cars parked in driveways. Yes, clearly, nobody is immune to crime and it can happen anywhere, and people in sleepy gated communities occasionally meet with tragedy, sure.

But the odds of someone like that getting into my home are about the same as an airliner falling on my house.

The odds of my children being in my house are 300% (that's 100% x 3 kids). The odds of them actually behaving in a trustworthy, reliable fashion are about... 0%. They've all been taught, and the oldest has been to the range quite a few times. But they're kids, and they're human, and humans do stupid things all the time.

But any firearm not intended to be deployed quickly is unloaded and locked in a safe, with ammo locked in a different cabinet. Anything meant for self defense is in a biometric safe with keypad. I am willing to lose a few extra seconds retrieving that firearm in the 0.00000001% chance I need it, than to lose children in the much higher chance that they might get their hands on something.

Things that have happened when guns were left unsecured, even around "trained" kids, and even kids who knew how to handle guns and were otherwise responsible and trustworthy...

1. Kid shoots his friend.
2. Kid shoots his foot.
3. Kid shoots a sibling.
4. Kid shoots up a school and everyone says "But we'd never have expected HE would be the one!"

Nope. Not worth it. Too many quick, affordable safes available today. Leaving a loaded gun easily accessible is putting a shark in your swimming pool and hoping it leaves you alone.
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