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 August 11, 2005, 11:58 PM #2 Wraith Senior Member   Join Date: July 22, 2004 Location: The Free State Posts: 498 It's true. +1 __________________ June 23, 2003 GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al. The day America died. Never Forget 9/11. Cold dead hands...
 August 12, 2005, 12:25 AM #3 JohnKSa Staff   Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 22,801 So, if your sights are perfectly aligned to each other the bullet will hit where the gun is aimed. If your pistol has a sight radius of 6.5", and the front sight is perfectly aligned with the target but is misaligned by X to the rear sight, you will miss by Y at 25 yards.[/edit] (thanks, HVR) misalign by this X -----> Y (miss by this) 0.1"--->13.9" 0.05"-->6.9" 0.04"-->5.6" 0.03"-->4.2" 0.02"-->2.8" 0.01"-->1.4" For reference. 0.04" is roughly the thickness of a dime, 0.01" is a little smaller than the diameter of the period at the end of this sentence. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association? Last edited by JohnKSa; August 12, 2005 at 08:25 PM.
 August 12, 2005, 12:49 AM #4 HighValleyRanch Senior Member   Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 3,473 JohnSka You forgot to add the distance at which you are calculating this? 10 yards? 25 yards? 50 yards? Thanks for the input. I'm not that mathmatical. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"
 August 12, 2005, 01:44 AM #5 XavierBreath Senior Member   Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800 I'm not sure I understand, but I'll take your word for it. I just try to line those puppies up and not mess it up when pressing the trigger. You guys are just to scientific for us Neanderthals.......... __________________ Xavier's Blog
 August 12, 2005, 02:32 AM #6 jeff_troop Senior Member   Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: NRA Patron member from MS Posts: 459 not busting your balls but i thought this was common knowledge. nra safe hunter course taught me this when i was a wee lad. the fed training center taught the same way. can't remember what uncle sam taught for some reason. guess he failed to leave an impression. good point worth bringing up though.!
 August 12, 2005, 02:46 AM #7 CobrayCommando Junior member   Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631 I can't understand what you said, perhaps because I don't have the proper definitions of alignment and picture here... I shoot by concentrating on the target, bringing the handgun up and focusing on the front sight with both eyes open. I never align the rear posts with the front, I use the front sight and pretend its a red dot sight on the target. I've found with practice I'm more accurate this way then normally, and I have better situational awareness. I use the Isoscles, so Weaver users may not be able to use this technique.
 August 12, 2005, 04:50 AM #8 Eghad Senior Member   Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231 http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm sight alignment is the most important. If you shoot nice tight groups even though they are not dead center you can adjust your sights if they are adjustable or change your sight picture for a fixed sight pistol or adjust the fixed sights. So if you are out shooting and are getting nice tight groups within the paremeters of the accuracy of the firearm.. you have proper sight alignment and are doing the other fundamentals of marksmanship correctly and iits a matter of adjusting your sights or where your sight picture is on the target to get center of mass or center of target. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member
 August 12, 2005, 10:05 AM #9 Z_Infidel Senior Member   Join Date: October 28, 2002 Posts: 117 This is probably most valid in target shooting. For combat / self defense shooting, there is something to be said for concentrating on the front sight or using a point-shooting technique, especially at closer distances. Other things, such as the position of the arms, can be used as indexes for proper alignment when trying to quickly get the front sight on target in a defensive shooting scenario. I will agree that accurate shooting at a distance requires proper sight alignment. Sometimes it's hard to decide which method should get more of your practice time. I try to practice both aimed fire with sight alignment at distance as well as quick front sight focus for up close.
 August 12, 2005, 10:10 AM #10 Hard Ball Senior Member   Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925 I agree that for aimed fire and precise shooting this is correct. For combat shooting concentrating on your front sight is faster and gives acceptable accuracy. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
August 12, 2005, 10:12 AM   #11
Bravo25
Senior Member

Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 432
Quote:
 Hard Ball
+1
Both should be practiced. CQC can be necessary, or removing a hostage from a BG could be as well.
__________________
If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free.

When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it.

Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero.

 August 12, 2005, 02:13 PM #12 CobrayCommando Junior member   Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631 Geeze what is this recent obsession with hostage rescue? There are maybe one thousand people in the world trained enough to have a good chance at rescuing a hostage in a hostile situation. These people have expended at least 15,000 rounds to become proficient and accurate enough, and there is still a margin of error. Unless the hostage taker is the dread pirate Blackbeard, I wouldn't base any of your gun choices, ammunition choices or training choices on rescuing hostages, unless your willing to dedicate thousands of dollars and months of time to become that good. Unless by removing a hostage from a bad guy you mean shooting through the hostage, which is what the Israelis do.
August 12, 2005, 02:50 PM   #13
Bravo25
Senior Member

Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 432
Quote:
 These people have expended at least 15,000 rounds to become proficient and accurate enough, and there is still a margin of error. Unless the hostage taker is the dread pirate Blackbeard, I wouldn't base any of your gun choices, ammunition choices or training choices on rescuing hostages, unless your willing to dedicate thousands of dollars and months of time to become that good.
I guess the point got lost here. Over the years I have spent that much money, time, and effort. I believe in my abilities to make a head shot at 7 to 10 yards. Yes even on a moving target. But that would require correct sight alignment. Right? Not just quick point, and shoot.

BTW you shouldn't ever riducle anyones willingness to be prepared. Ever shot IDPA matches?
__________________
If more laws restricting our rights will make us free from harm, why aren't we safe yet? We are only less free.

When faced with impossible overwhelming odds, prudance would dictate the only thing left is to figure out what is possible, and to do it.

Punishment for all crimes should increase until the recitivism rate approaches zero.

 August 12, 2005, 04:20 PM #14 HighValleyRanch Senior Member   Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 3,473 Hope this drawing helps __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"
 August 12, 2005, 06:26 PM #15 sendec Junior member   Join Date: April 18, 2005 Posts: 517 Actually, unless they are loose in their dovetails, sights are ALWAYS aligned
 August 12, 2005, 11:31 PM #16 CobrayCommando Junior member   Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631 My guess is that you have nowhere near the experience and training necessary to have a greater than 70 percent chance of rescuing a hostage and having that hostage live. I did not ridicule any single persons training, why don't you tell me how you have trained to rescue a loved one from the clutches of a person with a shotgun duct taped to they're head, and to his hand. I'm not ridiculing your training, as it has not been in vain, but I will say this, I don't have faith in yours or mine ability to reliably rescue hostages. It's one thing to think you're prepared, its another to actually do it. Lets not get into a pissing match, I'm just stating my opinion.
August 13, 2005, 12:38 AM   #17
blackmind
Junior member

Join Date: July 21, 2005
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
 Hope that makes it plain and simple.
I appreciate you taking the time to help people out with this explanation. It speaks well of you.

I think, though, that the explanation sort of makes a complicated thing out of something that I thought was already simple.

I think that one way to look at this is, whatever is in the center of your front sight when the front site is perfectly aligned between the rears is what will be shot.

If the front sight is off-center between the rears, if you were to freeze the gun in place there, and then put your dominant (sighting) eye off to the side so that the sight alignment was perfect, you would see the off-target thing you were going to end up shooting.

-blackmind

August 13, 2005, 12:52 AM   #18
JohnKSa
Staff

Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,801
One person's simple is another person's stone wall.
Quote:
 if you were to freeze the gun in place there, and then put your dominant (sighting) eye off to the side so that the sight alignment was perfect, you would see the off-target
Exactly! I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's exactly right.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

 August 13, 2005, 09:09 PM #20 CobrayCommando Junior member   Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631 Are you talking to me?
August 13, 2005, 09:50 PM   #21
HighValleyRanch
Senior Member

Join Date: July 15, 2005
Posts: 3,473
Who's talking to who?

No one knows who you are talking to, CobrayCommando, unless you address them, but if you addressing me, no I am not talking to you.I assumed that your other posts were not addressed to me, but to Bravo25.
Whew, this gets confusing.

I was trying to politely disagree with Blackminds statement that if you move your head over then the sights would be misaligned anyways, so gathering that his point was it's OK to have misaligned sights.

That is, if I am the one you are addressing:
Quote:
 Are you talking to me?
__________________
From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

 August 13, 2005, 11:17 PM #22 CobrayCommando Junior member   Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631 Yes, I was talking to you. This entire post is over my head... I will just continue to use what works best for me...
 August 15, 2005, 02:16 AM #23 LAK Junior member   Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251 Sight alignment error is actually manifested as a cone of fire as opposed to a triangle - since errors in elevation produce the same effect. It follows that it is somewhat less important at contact and short distances and more important as distance increases. Hence some argue completely unsighted fire close up, flash sight picture and then sighted fire depending on a relationship between the distance to target and the demands of speed. Sight picture indicates where you intend the bullet should go. Sight alignment determines where the bullet actually will go.
 August 15, 2005, 02:37 AM #24 Rangefinder Senior Member   Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017 OK, the simple break-down with what I was taught. Your target is the focus, your sights are not. Call it instinct, muscle memory, whatever. It's pretty basic to understand and recognize what the sight picture for a given weapon is "supposed" to look like. So when the reflex/muscle memory kicks in and brings the same sight picture within your field of view between your eye and the target you're focusing on, the bullet is going to go relitive to where you aim. Make sense, or am I making noise in an otherwise technical thread? __________________ "Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

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