|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
View Poll Results: Is the saying it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 derogatory? | |||
Yes | 1 | 2.27% | |
No | 43 | 97.73% | |
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
March 23, 2018, 07:17 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
Is the saying it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 derogatory?
Is the saying it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 derogatory?
|
March 23, 2018, 07:26 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 2,192
|
No. Some may view it as threatening but I would argue any law that prevents you from defending your very life is of questionable validity.
|
March 23, 2018, 07:42 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
Is the question whether the assertion is improperly derogatory?
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
March 23, 2018, 08:21 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: February 22, 2018
Posts: 77
|
Always better to end up in court than to end up in the morgue.
|
March 23, 2018, 10:25 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Derogatory to whom? Pallbearers??
It's an irritating cliché, but in what sense can it possibly be derogatory? Definition of derogatory
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
March 23, 2018, 11:08 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
It offers a false choice and is derogatory toward one of them, but why does that matter? ATN, why do are you asking this?
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
March 23, 2018, 11:39 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
Quote:
I can't recall where (online) but someone was saying that using a phrase like that would be bad for you in court. I personally don't find it incriminating but was curious about what others thought about it. |
|
March 23, 2018, 11:45 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 28, 2010
Location: Washington state
Posts: 401
|
I don't think derogatory is the right word. But I don't trust cops who make a point of using this old saying. I think they might sometimes use it to justify an attitude of being too trigger happy.
Last edited by cjwils; March 23, 2018 at 11:55 AM. |
March 23, 2018, 11:45 AM | #9 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,685
|
I don't see how that phrase would be bad for you in court. The most I can see is that it could be used to show that you had considered the matter, before the action in question. It MIGHT be used to try and show premeditation, but that isn't automatically a bad thing.
"Kill them all, let God sort them out" on the other hand, is one that I can't see an upside to using, in court...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
March 23, 2018, 11:46 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
It would matter what a jury thought of it. So what gun folks thought of it might not be the issue. This devolves down to the issue of whether your past history and utterances can be brought up against. Marty Hayes's ACDL newsletter had a series of lawyers discussing whether such things would be brought up, not allowed or have influence.
Frank or Spats might comment.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
March 23, 2018, 12:01 PM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
|
Quote:
It is certainly possible that a prosecutor who decides to proceed against you for a self defense incident could use your use of this cliche to paint a picture of you as relatively unconcerned with shooting someone. All sorts of things could push a prosecutor toward that decision, of influence a jury after that, but these are possible influences, not binary determinants that guaranty a result. People get very wound up about single factors and sometimes seem to lose sight of the total picture. If you are a homocidal nut setting a murder trap for burglars in your garage, not using "Better to be judged by 12..." isn't going to be what saves you. Where you are weighing a probability of prosecution, the variables are numerous. When you are thinking about introducing a new variable, you might consider whether that variable will be a detriment. I could imagine being a blowhard who makes flippant comments about killing people as a detrimental variable. My real objection* to the aphorism is that it leaves out the better alternative, not being carried or judged by anyone. ____ * I have very little criminal experience, and even my scant criminal experience may not apply well where ever you are.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; March 23, 2018 at 12:15 PM. |
|
March 23, 2018, 01:52 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 13, 2013
Location: N. Georgia
Posts: 1,150
|
Never think it nor have I used it.
It does connote an attitude, for some at least, of "shoot first, ask questions later." |
March 23, 2018, 02:17 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
March 23, 2018, 02:50 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,792
|
There is always the possibility that if you are ever involved in a shooting that a prosecutor will have social media searched and things you've posted printed. Those comments could be presented to a jury as evidence that you are guilty of more than self defense.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
March 23, 2018, 03:41 PM | #15 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,685
|
just out of curiosity, if a prosecutor can search social media, to pick and choose what to show a jury, cannot your lawyer do the same???
I realize every statement will carry different weight with different people on a jury, but I don't see how a court can disallow a criminal's history (rap sheet) and yet allow selected quotes from the accused to be used as evidence. Just seems like a double standard to me, but then, I never went to law school....
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
March 23, 2018, 09:56 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,641
|
It is a statement of fact. When tried by 12 there is some kind of future, when carried by 6 there is no future.
__________________
Every day Congress is in session we lose a little bit more of our Liberty. |
March 24, 2018, 09:28 AM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: August 27, 2008
Posts: 22
|
Jesus... More rogue prosecutor talk? Even if this was somehow introduced in trial, how is it incriminating? If you're going with self defense, I think this dovetails nicely. The implication is that they only other option you had left was to die. That's literally what you're likely to be arguing anyway.
|
March 24, 2018, 09:46 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 4,341
|
Like K_Mac, I tend to agree. I think it's also one of those things that "chest beaters" shout along with "From my cold, dead hands" and "Molon Labe" when they try to show their enthusiasm for firearms. While within specific context, it is a good thing, within other context, it makes us all look like idiots.
|
March 24, 2018, 11:52 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
As mentioned in the intense discussions of jury decision making in the professional literature, juries decide on the basis of emotion, prejudices, cognition, evidence, presentation by the lawyers, how you look and what you said, etc.
If the shoot is ambiguous (That's why you are on trial!! Get it, someone thinks it is a bad shoot, your motivations - was it self-defense or you were trigger happy is going to be part of it. Does the jury believe the prosecution that you were wrong in shooting or you saying you were in fear of grievous bodily harm. If they can present that you were yakking about shooting someone (which has happened) or your training presented a good deal of shoot'em up blood lust (which has happened), it won't do you any good. Thus, in the abstract pro-shooting rhetoric is probably a negative. Do some empirical research and ask potential jurors what they think it means.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
March 24, 2018, 12:09 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
|
The truth is antiseptic, and for many if not most people, the implication of the saying is blatantly true:
“I’m willing to defend my life against an aggressor if necessary with their life”.
__________________
Cave illos in guns et backhoes |
March 24, 2018, 01:20 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
March 24, 2018, 02:42 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
I am not sure about derogatory, but its predictable and irritating. A bit like a unloaded gun is a paper weight.
|
March 24, 2018, 06:30 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 1, 2017
Posts: 391
|
All it means is "I'd rather stand before a jury than be dead." Nothing derogatory about it all.
|
March 25, 2018, 02:14 PM | #24 |
Junior Member
Join Date: March 23, 2018
Posts: 11
|
No, it is not derogatory; since I would not be belittling anyone, or disparaging them.
It is an opinion that is being voiced, and nothing else. |
March 26, 2018, 08:32 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|