Loading 9mm/380 acp

[ninosdemente]

I have been looking on videos on this topic.

When loading for rifle, I have been seating on ogive. Does this apply the same with pistol? What about trimming, I see in Lymans 49th it says .754" for 9mm and .680" for .380 acp. I still have yet to measure the cases I have and may separate based on manufacturer. I usually do ladder tests for rifles but for handgun I don't have a very steady hand for testing purposes. Don't know if it would be somewhat a waste to do testing and all I will be accomplishing is using all my components. I initially wanted to load .380 for not wanting to buy factory ammo. But after a while wasn't enjoying the gun much do to the trigger and it misfired more than what I wanted to. Sent it to S&W, better but still misfires.

I have the following:
1 - 1,000 CCI primers
2 - Berrys 380 (.356) 100gr Flat Base Round Nose (250 qty) THIS CAN BE USED FOR EITHER 9mm and 380 acp?
2 - Hornady 9mm (.355) 115 FMJ RN (100 qty) CAN THIS BE USED FOR BOTH ALSO? This was given to me by brother. He doesn't load and bought it thinking it was something else.
1 - 1LB Winchester 231 new. Had it for close to a year now.
1 - RCBS 3 Die Carb TC Set .380 Auto
1 - RCBS 3 Die Carb TC Set 9mm Luger/9x21/9x23

With the above dies, is it suggested to lube the brass?

Loading for S&W M&P Shield 9mm, Sig Sauer P320 RX 9mm Compact with red dot and S&W Bodyguard .380acp

What do you guys test for? As mentioned, I might/will have difficult time with testing part. But do want to have loads for shooting more for all three hand guns. I know quite a few questions, just want to make sure I start out on the right path before spending unnecessary time chasing something that will not apply to me based on my skill on hand gun shooting. I have more questions but will ask as this thread progresses. Thanks in advanced.

[Nathan]

I have been seating on ogive. Does this apply the same with pistol?

No. Pistol OAL is set by the plunk test. Look it up, easy to find here or online.

What about trimming

Trimming is mostly meaningless in pistol. Yes, you should measure some or all of your cases to make sure you don’t have any odd balls, but you will catch that when crimping, if it is too long. You will see it when looking at finished rounds.

I usually do ladder tests for rifles but for handgun I don't have a very steady hand for testing purposes.

I find shooting 5 groups of 5 and judging recoil feel as well as accuracy is helpful load development. I also look for pressure signs which are different than for rifle. You could choose a load by chronoy or by ladder, if you wanted, since you seem to think accuracy is less important.

But after a while wasn't enjoying the gun much do to the trigger and it misfired more than what I wanted to. Sent it to S&W, better but still misfires.

misfire means “doesn’t go off?”

THIS CAN BE USED FOR EITHER 9mm and 380 acp?

Yes, but it will be hard to find reasonable 9mm data and it will not likely shoot POA.

CAN THIS BE USED FOR BOTH ALSO?

again, basically no. I don’t think you will be able to find 380 data...if you can, I don’t think you will be happy with it in 380.

With the above dies, is it suggested to lube the brass?

I would highly recommend something like Hornady One Shot. It smooths the process and makes things more consistent.

What do you guys test for?

I test for accuracy off a rest at 15 yds using OCW method. For 9 and 380, I might move to 10 yds. 357 and bigger 25 yds...well 45 auto at 15 yds.

Please pm me if you have specific questions once you get going.

[74A95]

Both the 100 grain and 115 grain bullets can be used in both calibers.

Lyman and Nosler have data for 115 grain bullets in the 380.

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/380-auto-acp/

You don't need lube since your dies are carbide, but you can use it if you like.

Trimming either caliber is not necessary. Most semi-auto cases get shorter with use.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Nathan

I would highly recommend something like Hornady One Shot. It smooths the process and makes things more consistent.

For what it's worth, I usually lube straight wall handgun cases with One-Shot aerosol. It's quick, it dries almost instantly (doesn't take much, just a light misting), and you can definitely feel the difference when sizing.

Case study: this afternoon I set out to make up ten 9mm dummy rounds. I was only going to be doing ten, and I use a carbide sizing die, so I decided to skip the lube. The third case stuck in the sizing die and the head pulled right through the shell holder. I had to remove the die from the press and use a long punch to knock the case out. Lesson learned -- lube. Ignore what the experts* say about lube not being needed with straight wall cases.



* Definition: Expert - a former drip under pressure

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

For what it's worth, I usually lube straight wall handgun cases with One-Shot aerosol. It's quick, it dries almost instantly (doesn't take much, just a light misting), and you can definitely feel the difference when sizing.

Case study: this afternoon I set out to make up ten 9mm dummy rounds. I was only going to be doing ten, and I use a carbide sizing die, so I decided to skip the lube. The third case stuck in the sizing die and the head pulled right through the shell holder. I had to remove the die from the press and use a long punch to knock the case out. Lesson learned -- lube. Ignore what the experts* say about lube not being needed with straight wall cases.


* Definition: Expert - a former drip under pressure

I've loaded well over 100,000 handgun rounds, and a countless number of those have been 9mm. I don't use lube on anything that had a carbide sizer.

[AgedWarrior]

Originally Posted by 74A95

I've loaded well over 100,000 handgun rounds, and a countless number of those have been 9mm. I don't use lube on anything that had a carbide sizer.

I have to agree. I have loaded thousands of rounds of various straight walled pistol cartridges and sized them with carbide dies and no lube. Never had a case stuck. I do clean the cases (tumble) prior to sizing. I have loaded 9mm to .454 Casull and just about everything in between without lubing cases in carbide sizing dies.

[ninosdemente]

Nathan, thanks will look up plunk test. I don't have a chrono, so ladder will seem to be the only way for me at the moment. Don't get me wrong, accuracy is what I strive for eventually. I'm just being honest that I will not be able to test for accuracy with the loads I create as I spend more time on rifles than I do with handguns. Just will be a good while before I get to where I want to be at. Trying to get help on how to better test the loads I create for accuracy if there is a specific bag I can use or better to use free hand when doing so and just keep practicing. What do you mean my cow method? Your right, not much load data for either.

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74A95, thanks for the link. I do have Hornady and Nosler books. Just haven't gone through them yet. Lyman is usually my go to book.

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Aguila Blanca, thanks. When using One Shot, does it leave some residue on the brass. I have liquid lube that came with my Rock Chucker kit. I have been using that but it does leave residue and the cleaning from the brass is time consuming and a bit annoying.

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AgedWarrior, thanks for help.


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Since I have two 9mm hand guns would one be able to load the same batch for both or do either one require different loads?

[Wendyj]

I’d check the plunk test on both 9 mms. I loaded around a 1000 124 grain 9 mm that would plunk and feed through my Glock and VP9. None would let my Smith Shield go into battery or pass plunk test. OAL was too long for the Smith.

[74A95]

Here's an explanation of the plunk test:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unk-test/99389

Hornady One Shot leaves some residue, but it's dry, and many folks don't bother removing it.

[Nathan]

Trying to get help on how to better test the loads I create for accuracy if there is a specific bag I can use or better to use free hand when doing so and just keep practicing.

I shoot off a bag. Base of hands or wrist resting on the bag.

cow method

OCW......LINK

When using One Shot, does it leave some residue on the brass.

Yes, but rounds can be shot without removing it.

since I have two 9mm hand guns would one be able to load the same batch for both or do either one require different loads?

Yes, but I would develop loads around a single gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ninosdemente

Aguila Blanca, thanks. When using One Shot, does it leave some residue on the brass. I have liquid lube that came with my Rock Chucker kit. I have been using that but it does leave residue and the cleaning from the brass is time consuming and a bit annoying.

The aerosol One-Shot (Hornady also sells a liquid version, which would be appropriate for use on bottleneck rifle cases) dries more like a wax. As I commented above, it dries almost instantly. I don't clean it off after loading. It doesn't clog up my dies, and it doesn't affect firearm function or attract dirt. I've used it to reload tens of thousands of rounds ... once I mist the cases, I forget about it.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by ninosdemente

Since I have two 9mm hand guns would one be able to load the same batch for both or do either one require different loads?

A single load can work for both 9mm guns, just like most factory loads that work in virtually all 9mm guns on the planet.

If you're working on super-accurate ammo, then different guns tend to like different loads. But for general use casual shooting/plinking ammo, which is the category that your bullets fall into, it can be the same load for most 9mm guns on the planet.

231 is a very good general use powder. It tends to produce better than average accuracy for a lot of calibers.

If you use 231 and 115 grain bullets in the 380, do NOT use the starting load of 1.6 grains. It is underpowered and can produce stuck bullets in the barrel. See here:

https://americanhandgunner.com/handg...ger-of-squibs/

Even in the 9mm, use 231 data that is above the starting load. 231 tends to produce moderate velocity and with that comes less recoil force, and some guns need a bit more 231 powder to cycle reliably.

[jetinteriorguy]

For 9mm I load a dummy round long, then plunk and seat deeper until it passes the plunk test. I set my seating die .020" deeper to account for differences in brass and bullets. Then I work up my load being careful not to compress the powder even if the load data max hasn't been reached yet. I used to work up loads shooting off a rest, but have found for me shooting off hand like I would in a real type shooting situation gives me a more realistic result for SD type shooing. I just get a better feel for how the ammo performs. I basically shoot from 7-12 yds since my eyesight at an indoor range with the lighting just doesn't work well beyond this distance. Out doors in good light with 9mm ill shoot out to 25yds, and with my magnums out to 100yds just for s&g's. Off a bench with my .41 mag I can still consistently hit a one foot square target 75% of the time.

[Nathan]

Then I work up my load being careful not to compress the powder even if the load data max hasn't been reached yet.

Why? I’m not sure 9mm loads are ever compressed, ime, but why avoid this?

I used to work up loads shooting off a rest, but have found for me shooting off hand like I would in a real type shooting situation gives me a more realistic result for SD type shooing.

How does that help you find the best load? What are you looking for?

[74A95]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Then I work up my load being careful not to compress the powder even if the load data max hasn't been reached yet.

Why are you worried about compression?

[mikld]

The only handgun cases I lube is 44 Magnum (44 Magnum seems to be a bit more difficult to size than any other round I reload and I only use a bit of lube on every 5th or 6th case). I started reloading with carbide sizing dies in early '70s and only "needed" lube on one (380 Auto, 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Mag., 44 Special, 44 Mag., 45 ACP and 45 Colt, no lube).

In my experience my dies seat on the ogive of the bullet (with the exception of WC and SWC). The seating stem contacts the ogive of the bullet and not the nose. The plunk test is used to determine the optional OAL for a particular bullet/bullet length/gun...

[jetinteriorguy]

Um, as far as I've ever known compressing pistol loads with fast burning powders can raise pressures, sometimes at an unpredictable rate causing a dangerous spike and kaboom. If this is incorrect please enlighten me. I have to load my bullets to a relatively short OAL due to some of my pistols having a short lead and I try for a powder that will give good case fill without compressing and give good dependable accuracy. Sometimes because of this the max recommended load is too much. As far as shooting offhand for accuracy, I've found at least in my personal experience the way a load 'feels' and shoots is different. I can load up a nice accurate load off a rest that offhand is just no good and a different one that's just so so will shoot fine offhand. Maybe that's just weird but for me that works.

[44 AMP]

1 - 1,000 CCI primers
2 - Berrys 380 (.356) 100gr Flat Base Round Nose (250 qty) THIS CAN BE USED FOR EITHER 9mm and 380 acp?
2 - Hornady 9mm (.355) 115 FMJ RN (100 qty) CAN THIS BE USED FOR BOTH ALSO? This was given to me by brother. He doesn't load and bought it thinking it was something else.
1 - 1LB Winchester 231 new. Had it for close to a year now.

Small pistol primers (not magnums) CCI 500

The .380 is usually loaded with lighter bullets than the 9mm, but can be loaded with 115gr bullets.

W231 powder will work fine.

Carbide dies don't require lubing the cases.

A word about the "plunk" test. It doesn't tell you everything you need to know. All it tells you is if the bullet is far enough away from the rifling that the loaded rounds drops (ker-plunk) all the way into the chamber of the barrel, or not. You do need to know this, it tells you the bullet is not hitting the rifling and your brass is sized enough to fully chamber.

But, it doesn't tell you if the round is too long to feed through the magazine and into the chamber. There are bullets (especially some 9mm FMJs) with relatively long "skinny" noses that will pass the plunk test even if too long to work through the magazine.

"Loading to the ogive" or "chasing the lands" simply doesn't apply to most pistols. Can't be done in any revolver, and in a semi auto the point is to fit and work through the magazine. Accuracy tricks that work in rifles don't have measurable benefits in most pistols (if they are even possible).

It's a long recognized fact that semi autos can shoot differently depending on how they are held and loaded. Very common to see a semi in a Ransom rest put the first round in a spot different from the rest.

You've got a collection of moving parts, moving in relation to each other, and then back again, different from what is in rifles, and then the fact of holding the gun in your hands means you shouldn't expect (and very likely won't get) rifle class accuracy from any service type semi auto, or their smaller compact carry cousins.

For generations a 2.5" group at 25yds was considered accurate enough for service use by law enforcement and civilians alike. GI standards were...more generous

[44 AMP]

Um, as far as I've ever known compressing pistol loads with fast burning powders can raise pressures, sometimes at an unpredictable rate causing a dangerous spike and kaboom. If this is incorrect please enlighten me.

Um, this is a yes and no thing. Compressing the powder (reducing the amount of space in the case) does increase pressures. Yes.

UNINTENTIONALLY doing that, such as with bullet setback during feeding, CAN spike pressure to dangerous levels, in some cases. Particularly in small volume cases already operating at high pressure levels. The largest part of the risk is the unpredictability of it.

Now, a load worked up AS a compressed load is a different matter. So, not all compression is bad. This is the "no" part.

A compressed load of a fast burning powder is difficult to achieve, since so little powder is used compared to the available space. I can happen due to extreme setback, and if it does it would be a very bad thing. Compressing a medium or slower burning powder is easier in mechanical terms, and is done deliberately sometimes with certain cartridges and loads. Further compression of those loads is a bad thing, as well.

So, accidently and uncontrollably compressing a load that was not meant to be compressed or further compressing a load worked up as a compressed load is a bad thing. It can be a dangerously bad thing, that varies with the specific circumstances.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Um, as far as I've ever known compressing pistol loads with fast burning powders can raise pressures, sometimes at an unpredictable rate causing a dangerous spike and kaboom. If this is incorrect please enlighten me.

Few places indicate if the power is compressed or not, but Nosler has some information on that for 380 and 9mm. They have several compressed loads for these calibers.

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/380-auto-acp/
https://load-data.nosler.com/load-da...er-parabellum/

Compression itself it not necessarily a bad thing and it can be common with some powders in some calibers.

A distinction does need to be made when talking about setback. The compression of the powder itself might not be the problem, but a significantly reduced powder chamber caused by pushing the bullet deeper is a real problem. Thus, even when the powder is not compressed, pushing the bullet deeper will increase pressure and can do so very dramatically.

[jetinteriorguy]

I see what you're saying. As long as a compressed load is worked up to safely and the bullet is crimped sufficiently to prevent any accidental bullet setback it should be fine except with very fast powders. I've never had a problem working up a good load without compressing the powder, so as far as my needs are concerned I'm just going to stick with my method. But, even after 30+ years of loading for 9mm I guess there is still stuff to learn.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

I see what you're saying. As long as a compressed load is worked up to safely and the bullet is crimped sufficiently to prevent any accidental bullet setback it should be fine except with very fast powders.

Even with "fast powders" I'd like to see actual data to see how pressure changes as the bullet is seated deeper, and if there is a bigger pressure change when it starts to be compressed that can't be simply accounted for by just a smaller powder chamber.

I see the compression with fast powders thing often, but without data it's not clear if it's real or myth.

[griz]

I would use the 100s for 380, the 115s for 9mm. For pistols, I test primarily for function, then accuracy. I check velocity too, but it's not critical for practice ammo.

[lordmorgul]

Straight wall cases don’t need lube with carbide, but if you want to lube them you cannot beat simple Lanolin and Denatured Alcohol mixed in a spray bottle... very small quantity of lanolin compared to the alcohol, trial and error will get the mix right for you, it’s dirt cheap, dries quickly just like one shot would, leaves a very light lanolin lube, and doesn’t really need removed.

A chrono is money well spent. Consistent velocity in pistol loads correlates well with consistent accuracy.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

[74A95]

Originally Posted by lordmorgul

Consistent velocity in pistol loads correlates well with consistent accuracy.

No it doesn't: https://americanhandgunner.com/handg...city-accuracy/