.410 load data wanted, 2" shells.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · December 9, 2019, 06:22 AM

G'day
I am about to start reloading shot shell.
I am starting with a .410 and will use an old Lee Whack-A-Mole.
I have 2" , 2 1/2" and 3" shells. I have not been able to locate any load data for the 2"shells. They are the only ones I have wads for at the moment. I also have several different powders that I could use, W296, AP70 (Universal) and the new ASP450 (Not sure what else it is called). At this stage I will be loading 7.5 Shot as I have 10kg to get me started.

I have been using the W296 for my .357 "Rifle"

Once I am comfortable with loading for the .410 I will progress to the 12 gauge. I have picked up a Ponsness Warren press to do them as well as shot making equipment.

**Unclenick** · December 9, 2019, 10:14 AM

Unfortunately, the 2" has been considered obsolete for a long time in this country. There is no SAAMI standard maintained for it at this point in time. I don't believe it has been made regularly for decades. Skeet shooting was invented in 1932, IIRC, and the .410 load required by the rules was in a 2½" shell, as the 2" made it too difficult to break clay birds (too little shot). So it would have faded quickly after that. Even my oldest load data books from the '60s make no mention of it. That tells me the powders you have in mind were not developed until after the shell was obsolete which means no load data has likely ever been developed in pressure guns for those powders on this side of the lake.

All that begs the question, where did you get 2" shells? Might they have been custom made from longer shells? I have seen people who have old guns chambered in 2" asking how to do that. I don't know of readily available data for it, though.

The original shell was developed in England early in the second half of the 19th century, IIRC. It might be the brits have kept the 2" alive. I can ask someone I know from there, if you want. Or perhaps it has been kept alive in your country, since you have some shells. In that case, I would call ADI and ask, but they only list the 2½" in their manuals.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · December 9, 2019, 07:01 PM

G'day Unclenick,
It's a second hand .410 I got about 5 years ago. I wasn't looking for a .410 but at came with a couple of rifles that I was getting. I don't think it is "old" as it has a synthetic stock. It mainly gets used to introduce beginners to a shotgun or the odd pest control. As the 12 gauge has cheaper cartridges I would usually use that.
I would have purchased the 2" shells at my local firearms dealer. The wads came from Ebay, an Australian seller. I stumbled onto them some time ago and did not even realize they were for the 2" shells. They seem too short for the 2 1/2 shells unless the shot can sit above the fingers. They hold about 1/4 ounce of shot (I'll investigate this a bit further).
I nave a copy of the latest ADI manual that was released a few months ago, I have also looked on their web site.
I have a nephew that works at the ADI facility. He is in a lab and checks the quality of the powders and ingredients. I don't think that he has anything to do with load development but at least I have an inside contact.
I'll just have to put those shells aside until I stumble across the data required for them. It is only a few boxes worth.

**Unclenick** · December 11, 2019, 12:20 AM

My English friend suggests trying to find an old Nobel powder reloading manual. Many of the powders will no longer be available, but it would be a start. He has some of the 2" shells made by Eley that he still uses on the odd garden-raiding squirrel, but they are old enough that they are paper and he's thinking it's been so long since he has seen any for sale that perhaps he should set a few of his last twenty aside for cartridge collectors.

At this point, other than very old manuals, I think I would be working out how much powder space there really is as compared to a 2.5" shell. You could write Eley to explain your situation and to ask if they still have any information that might be helpful, like the shot weight normally launched from one. QuickLOAD can be tricked into working out likely quantities of powder with the space and shot and wad weight info by modeling a longer one first to get a match and then switching powder space to the smaller ones.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · December 11, 2019, 04:46 PM

G'day,
Thanks for the help. I think for the trouble they are that I will just shove them in a box somewhere for now. Treat them as single use, throw away shells.
The brand is GB and they are from Spain. They wave a web site and it shows all of the countries that they distribute to. Not USA.

**Unclenick** · December 11, 2019, 05:37 PM

Probably no market here.

There is another (not entirely inexpensive) approach you can take to these things, which is to get a Pressure Trace and measure the pressure of your load developments, starting with, say, half the load for a 2½ inch shell, and working up to a match. You would then find other uses for it, I'm sure, but this would give you a way to say with a pressure the gun finds acceptable and work up to establish it.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · December 12, 2019, 08:22 AM

G'day Unclenick,

My wife will hate you if she finds out you are responsible for me getting another "useless" gadget.

I think I could buy many years worth of factory ammo for the .410 instead of one of these Pressure Trace units (around 50/year). It does have the advantage of being suitable for all of my load development. People think I am a "Gun Nut"because I have over 12 rifles and/or a chrony

I'll endeavour to get/use 2 1/2 or 3" shells in the future.

SHR970 · December 12, 2019, 08:49 PM

You may also wish to querry LYALVALE EXPRESS. https://www.lyalvaleexpress.com/shop...ow_products=60 scroll to bottom of offerings.
They also market a 2" shell in the UK. As they utilize double base powders, their powder suppliers may also have offerings that you may be able to obtain.

**Unclenick** · December 12, 2019, 11:53 PM

It's cool that there are still some out there. Also, it tells us nine grams is a typical shot load.

Skull,

That might be enough information to make a good guess at a load if you can work out the volume of the powder space and provide the weight of the wad (or can compare the bottom to a same-type wad for a longer .410 and confirm they are the same).

SHR970 · December 15, 2019, 03:20 PM

Looking through Eley's site they list Maxam CSB2 powder for the 410 2" with a fibre wad.

Perhaps ADI has a cross reference that I'm not seeing on the web that would provide an available replacement.

Found a UK cross that shows it crosses AA#5, HS-6, Power Pistol. That seems to put you in AP70N to AP100 territory.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · December 21, 2019, 04:17 AM

G'day

Thanks SHR970 I'll look into it when I get a few days off work.

December 9, 2019, 06:22 AM	#1
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	.410 load data wanted, 2" shells. G'day I am about to start reloading shot shell. I am starting with a .410 and will use an old Lee Whack-A-Mole. I have 2" , 2 1/2" and 3" shells. I have not been able to locate any load data for the 2"shells. They are the only ones I have wads for at the moment. I also have several different powders that I could use, W296, AP70 (Universal) and the new ASP450 (Not sure what else it is called). At this stage I will be loading 7.5 Shot as I have 10kg to get me started. I have been using the W296 for my .357 "Rifle" Once I am comfortable with loading for the .410 I will progress to the 12 gauge. I have picked up a Ponsness Warren press to do them as well as shot making equipment. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

December 9, 2019, 10:14 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Unfortunately, the 2" has been considered obsolete for a long time in this country. There is no SAAMI standard maintained for it at this point in time. I don't believe it has been made regularly for decades. Skeet shooting was invented in 1932, IIRC, and the .410 load required by the rules was in a 2½" shell, as the 2" made it too difficult to break clay birds (too little shot). So it would have faded quickly after that. Even my oldest load data books from the '60s make no mention of it. That tells me the powders you have in mind were not developed until after the shell was obsolete which means no load data has likely ever been developed in pressure guns for those powders on this side of the lake. All that begs the question, where did you get 2" shells? Might they have been custom made from longer shells? I have seen people who have old guns chambered in 2" asking how to do that. I don't know of readily available data for it, though. The original shell was developed in England early in the second half of the 19th century, IIRC. It might be the brits have kept the 2" alive. I can ask someone I know from there, if you want. Or perhaps it has been kept alive in your country, since you have some shells. In that case, I would call ADI and ask, but they only list the 2½" in their manuals. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 9, 2019, 07:01 PM	#3
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day Unclenick, It's a second hand .410 I got about 5 years ago. I wasn't looking for a .410 but at came with a couple of rifles that I was getting. I don't think it is "old" as it has a synthetic stock. It mainly gets used to introduce beginners to a shotgun or the odd pest control. As the 12 gauge has cheaper cartridges I would usually use that. I would have purchased the 2" shells at my local firearms dealer. The wads came from Ebay, an Australian seller. I stumbled onto them some time ago and did not even realize they were for the 2" shells. They seem too short for the 2 1/2 shells unless the shot can sit above the fingers. They hold about 1/4 ounce of shot (I'll investigate this a bit further). I nave a copy of the latest ADI manual that was released a few months ago, I have also looked on their web site. I have a nephew that works at the ADI facility. He is in a lab and checks the quality of the powders and ingredients. I don't think that he has anything to do with load development but at least I have an inside contact. I'll just have to put those shells aside until I stumble across the data required for them. It is only a few boxes worth. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

December 11, 2019, 12:20 AM	#4
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	My English friend suggests trying to find an old Nobel powder reloading manual. Many of the powders will no longer be available, but it would be a start. He has some of the 2" shells made by Eley that he still uses on the odd garden-raiding squirrel, but they are old enough that they are paper and he's thinking it's been so long since he has seen any for sale that perhaps he should set a few of his last twenty aside for cartridge collectors. At this point, other than very old manuals, I think I would be working out how much powder space there really is as compared to a 2.5" shell. You could write Eley to explain your situation and to ask if they still have any information that might be helpful, like the shot weight normally launched from one. QuickLOAD can be tricked into working out likely quantities of powder with the space and shot and wad weight info by modeling a longer one first to get a match and then switching powder space to the smaller ones. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 11, 2019, 05:37 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Probably no market here. There is another (not entirely inexpensive) approach you can take to these things, which is to get a Pressure Trace and measure the pressure of your load developments, starting with, say, half the load for a 2½ inch shell, and working up to a match. You would then find other uses for it, I'm sure, but this would give you a way to say with a pressure the gun finds acceptable and work up to establish it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 11, 2019, 04:46 PM	#5
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day, Thanks for the help. I think for the trouble they are that I will just shove them in a box somewhere for now. Treat them as single use, throw away shells. The brand is GB and they are from Spain. They wave a web site and it shows all of the countries that they distribute to. Not USA. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

December 12, 2019, 08:22 AM	#7
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day Unclenick, My wife will hate you if she finds out you are responsible for me getting another "useless" gadget. I think I could buy many years worth of factory ammo for the .410 instead of one of these Pressure Trace units (around 50/year). It does have the advantage of being suitable for all of my load development. People think I am a "Gun Nut"because I have over 12 rifles and/or a chrony I'll endeavour to get/use 2 1/2 or 3" shells in the future. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

December 12, 2019, 08:49 PM	#8
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	You may also wish to querry LYALVALE EXPRESS. https://www.lyalvaleexpress.com/shop...ow_products=60 scroll to bottom of offerings. They also market a 2" shell in the UK. As they utilize double base powders, their powder suppliers may also have offerings that you may be able to obtain.

December 12, 2019, 11:53 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	It's cool that there are still some out there. Also, it tells us nine grams is a typical shot load. Skull, That might be enough information to make a good guess at a load if you can work out the volume of the powder space and provide the weight of the wad (or can compare the bottom to a same-type wad for a longer .410 and confirm they are the same). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 15, 2019, 03:20 PM	#10
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Looking through Eley's site they list Maxam CSB2 powder for the 410 2" with a fibre wad. Perhaps ADI has a cross reference that I'm not seeing on the web that would provide an available replacement. Found a UK cross that shows it crosses AA#5, HS-6, Power Pistol. That seems to put you in AP70N to AP100 territory. Last edited by SHR970; December 15, 2019 at 03:44 PM.

December 21, 2019, 04:17 AM	#11
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day Thanks SHR970 I'll look into it when I get a few days off work. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

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