Feed problems: gun or ammo?

L. Boscoe · January 30, 2022, 02:13 PM

This may belong in the handloading aisle, but what do I know:
I have several SAR 45's all bought in the same year, two stainless and one in
blue/black. The stainless seem to accept hand loaded 45acp's better than the
blue/black.
Also the compact stainless is better than the full size stainless. To further complicate the question, I am shooting Missouri Bullet co's coated 200gr SWC
and Extreme's plated 200gr SWC. I don't have data on whether the plated
feed better than the coated, will have to post more about that.

So finally the question: anything I can or should do on my own to improve this
situation, or must I go to a gunsmith, most of whom want to work on 1911's and not anything else?:

ps: these are light loads, 4.0gr of 231.

BornFighting88 · January 30, 2022, 06:18 PM

Could it be short cycling?? Also, when you say “coated 200gr SWC”, do you mean waxed?? Gunk can cause feeding issues. Bullet geometries also sometimes lead to feeding problems. Anything that can get hung up on the magazine feed lips/feed ramp seam is going to give you issues, too.

Polish your feed ramp, maybe??

**4V50 Gary** · January 30, 2022, 06:41 PM

Use USGI or Colt magazines and try different ammo.

SWC generally don't do well.

Shadow9mm · January 30, 2022, 07:26 PM

What is the gun doing?

Are the rounds failing to feed from the magazine into the chamber?
Is the slide not wanting to close all the way?
Is it malfunctioning when you are shooting, or when you rack the slide with your hand?
Does it do it with several magazines, or just a couple?

It could be the ammo, the magazines, or the feed ramp in the gun.

I would plunk test the ammo in both guns. Take the barrels out. Drop a round in, should make a plunk sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdJLNox1hpk

**44 AMP** · January 30, 2022, 09:24 PM

The problem with the "plunk" test is that it only tells you if the ammo will CHAMBER properly and NOT if it will feed into the chamber without issues.

Semi auto feeding is always a balancing act. The gun, the ammo and the FIT between them. What runs ok in one gun may not run in another. And, of course, what is expected to run in everything (ball ammo) isn't what most want to use.

Steve in Allentown, · January 30, 2022, 09:49 PM

Have you ever shot these pistols using factory 230gr FMJ?

In my live fire testing of any new 1911 I use this ammo. If the pistol won't run 100% with this ammo, there's most likely a geometry problem somewhere in the pistol. If the pistol does run fine with this ammo but not with your handloads, it's time to look at things like bullet seating depth and crimp.

I'm with @Shadow9mm that more information is necessary to narrow down the diagnosis.

Shadow9mm · January 30, 2022, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The problem with the "plunk" test is that it only tells you if the ammo will CHAMBER properly and NOT if it will feed into the chamber without issues.

Semi auto feeding is always a balancing act. The gun, the ammo and the FIT between them. What runs ok in one gun may not run in another. And, of course, what is expected to run in everything (ball ammo) isn't what most want to use.

I'm clear, but we're not sure exactly what the malfunction is yet. "Seem to Accept" is rather vague. Could be feeding or chambering issues. The OP was concerned it could be the hand loads, a plunk test will quickly and simply either confirm or rule it out as an issue in relation to "seem to accept". Having had a 1911 and shot several, im always suspicious of the magazines Personally.

L. Boscoe · January 30, 2022, 10:35 PM

I always test my handloads with the plunk test when I box them up after loading, not every one, just a good 10% sample.
The factory hardball stuff will cycle well, but as you can see, not my preference-
my 85 year old hands won't last long with a few boxes of hardball.
I am thinking a ramp issue, as some others who had SAR's complained about
SWC's not feeding well. My CZ's feed the handloads just fine, although not as
perfectly as the hardball stuff. Could it be a weaker recoil spring? I have change it out in the compact, not in the others.
Anyway, I will shoot some more this week, take notes, and post the results
Thanks to all for the comments

ocharry · January 31, 2022, 11:08 AM

Boscoe..if it were me....i would change bullets. those SWC are a hard one to get to feed consistently, not saying it cant be done, but some guns feed them fine while others have issues

i have an old colt combat commander...early 90s vintage that i worked on the ramp and slicked up and i got it to feel about 98-99% with the SWC bullets but there seemed always a hick up....it might run fine for a 100+ rounds and then one would say nope i dont want to go in there

so i changed to a 200gr RNFP and all the problems went away......i have 7 1911s and ALL of them run like a sewing machine with these bullets...i think the TRP would run with rocks if i loaded them but that gun is a jewel in a different class

you might also try a truncated cone bullet they seem to feed well too...although i have not tried those some of my buddies use them with good results

while these bullets dont make the nice paper punch hole in the target as the SWC they do shoot every bit as good for me and there is no doubt where it hit

as has been said you could have a mag problem but i would bet since you said the guns feed hard ball ok then it is a SWC problem and maybe a mag problem with that bullet but if i were doing it i would change the bullet first and see what happens

IIRC, JMB designed this gun to work with 200gr bullets and the army wanted the 230...thats why i use the 200s....just me....the 230s work just fine

just my experience and .02 .... YMMV

ocharry

Steve in Allentown, · January 31, 2022, 06:21 PM

You might find it interesting to compare your reload dimensions to this classic Bullseye cartridge.

Also, if you want to give a new magazine a try at solving the problem I recommend one of these three. Understand that everyone has their own favorite but in my experience you stand the best chance for success with one of these.

Having carried and used GI 1911s courtesy of Uncle Sam I'm no fan of welded base magazines but if that's your choice, you should give one of these a try:

Tripp 7 round magazine
https://shop.1911parts.com/Tripp-Res...e-7R-45-WG.htm

Wilson 7 round magazine
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/MAGAZIN...fo/920-45FS7B/

If you prefer an 8 round magazine, this is my favorite 8 round magazine bar none. I highly recommend it:

TMC Ultimate 8 round magazine
https://shop.1911parts.com/TMC-Ultim...zines_c114.htm

BornFighting88 · January 31, 2022, 07:24 PM

I like Tripp Research mags and parts. I have a Cobra mag for my carry pistol that feeds and functions just dandy.

I swapped the followers of my CMC Railed Power mags with Tripp Research followers. Haven't managed switching the followers of the factory mags, yet. Welded bases make it a nightmare to fish out the old and install the new.

L. Boscoe · February 1, 2022, 09:02 PM

Steve, my loads are a dead ringer for your photo.
Keep in mind, guys, I am not shooting a 1911, so the mags offer probably won't fit a SAR.

Steve in Allentown, · February 1, 2022, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L. Boscoe

Keep in mind, guys, I am not shooting a 1911, so the mags offer probably won't fit a SAR.

I had to do a search to find out just what the heck a SAR is. I hereby withdraw my magazine recommendations.

L. Boscoe · February 6, 2022, 06:11 PM

Ok, I went to the range and shot about 100 rounds of factory loads, had a few
jams, most went well. Shot about 100 rounds of commercial reloads that don't have the recoil of factory, and they were much worse in jamming and attendant problems.
I will change recoil springs to the heaviest I have, a 16#, and see if that helps.
Long term I ain't shooting factory hard ball. It is not nearly as much fun as
my hand loads.

Nathan · February 6, 2022, 06:58 PM

I would start the way I look at most problems. First let’s assume you mean you have a failure. Let’s narrow it down to 1 gun and 1 shooter and 1 ammo and 1 day if possible. What is the exact failure? When does it occur? Can you recreate? What is the failure rate?

Shooter - Is it the shooter? Try multiple shooters. Doe they all have the same failure rate?

Pistol- Is it the pistol? Does the same ammo run well in another similar pistol? Is it clean? Does it feel right? Does it have less than 1000 rounds on the mainspring? Do all the magazines have the same force to load? Do the stiffest and weakest mags have the same failure rate?

Ammo - Does 230gr Winchester, Federal, CCI all have the same failure? I choose this ammo because it is the standard. Anything else should work but is outside the standard. What velocity do the 200gr bullets shoot at?

L. Boscoe · February 6, 2022, 10:43 PM

Nathan, that is pretty much what I am going to do. I have another pistol of the same make that I will try with the same ammo. The CZ that is having a problem is customized,so I am asking the custom shop about that.
The other one is a compact SAR, that I have not had any feed problems with in the past, so I can narrow it down.
Do 9mm guys have this kind of trouble?

FITASC · February 6, 2022, 10:52 PM

Quote:

You might find it interesting to compare your reload dimensions to this classic Bullseye cartridge.

I can tell you that with my Kimber, I need to seat the entire base inside the case or it will not chamber; seat that fat base flush with the case mouth and it goes bang every time

L. Boscoe · February 8, 2022, 04:27 PM

Sounds like a plan.

HiBC · February 9, 2022, 08:50 AM

I understand, you have a SAR,not a 1911.
Without looking it up ,I wouldn't know a SAR if it bit my ankle.
What I'm going to tell you may not apply.
With most modern 1911 barrels for 45 ACP, chamber mouths are already beveled properly to accommodate the 200 gr SWC.

In earlier times,that was not necessarily so. Without being precise, just to help illustrate,picture a 45 deg bevel on the chamber mouth ,just above the feed ramp, clocking approx 4 oclock to 7 oclock. Enough to funnel the round nose of hardball into the chamber.
The rest of the chamber mouth was left square cornered. As the square shoulder of the SWC rocked up and tried to enter the chamber, it might snag on the chamber mouth.

So,a service the 1911 smiths offered was "Bevel the chamber mouth for SWC's" That meant extending the chamfer up to at least 9 oclock and 3 oclock. Maybe a bit more. That "funnel" served to nudge the SWC into the chamber.

That may or may not apply to your SAR. I don't know.

Another possibility. It seems you are using lighter loads. No problem! Keep it fun!
Your mag spring has to overcome the weight and friction of all the rounds in the magazine and lift them till the top round stops at the fed lips.

That all has to happen pretty fast as the slide does not dilly dally around waiting . Its headed home. The light loads might shorten the time the slide is full back in recoil, and if you mag springs are a bit sluggish you may get a mis feed.

That may not solve anything,but its something to think about.

( I remember "Bosco" as a chocolate milk syrup heavily advertised on kid TV shows !!! )

RickB · February 9, 2022, 10:03 AM

Number your mags, so you can track performance.
4.0 is a very light load; my lightish load of 231 was over five grains.
Try a different bullet shape.

L. Boscoe · February 9, 2022, 02:12 PM

I have a whole box of different springs, intented for CZ 97's which are twins for the SAR. Down to 10# and up to 14#. I can see about that influence.
I also have a Springfield Tactical 1911, I will check the feed ramp on it and
the SAR to see.
I can happily change bullets, once I use up the 1000 or more I have on hand

L. Boscoe · February 22, 2022, 08:16 PM

Ok, it was ammo. I loaded SWC with the ledge of the
bullet about 0.1 or less above the case mouth. Did very well, perhaps perfect.
Also loaded some hollow points from Berry's to the exact
OAL that the Norma HP I have and they chambered 100%.
Looking like I have got a solution.
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

January 30, 2022, 02:13 PM	#1
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo? This may belong in the handloading aisle, but what do I know: I have several SAR 45's all bought in the same year, two stainless and one in blue/black. The stainless seem to accept hand loaded 45acp's better than the blue/black. Also the compact stainless is better than the full size stainless. To further complicate the question, I am shooting Missouri Bullet co's coated 200gr SWC and Extreme's plated 200gr SWC. I don't have data on whether the plated feed better than the coated, will have to post more about that. So finally the question: anything I can or should do on my own to improve this situation, or must I go to a gunsmith, most of whom want to work on 1911's and not anything else?: ps: these are light loads, 4.0gr of 231.

January 30, 2022, 06:41 PM	#3
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Use USGI or Colt magazines and try different ammo. SWC generally don't do well. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 30, 2022, 07:26 PM	#4
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	What is the gun doing? Are the rounds failing to feed from the magazine into the chamber? Is the slide not wanting to close all the way? Is it malfunctioning when you are shooting, or when you rack the slide with your hand? Does it do it with several magazines, or just a couple? It could be the ammo, the magazines, or the feed ramp in the gun. I would plunk test the ammo in both guns. Take the barrels out. Drop a round in, should make a plunk sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdJLNox1hpk __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

January 30, 2022, 09:24 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	The problem with the "plunk" test is that it only tells you if the ammo will CHAMBER properly and NOT if it will feed into the chamber without issues. Semi auto feeding is always a balancing act. The gun, the ammo and the FIT between them. What runs ok in one gun may not run in another. And, of course, what is expected to run in everything (ball ammo) isn't what most want to use. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 30, 2022, 10:35 PM	#8
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo I always test my handloads with the plunk test when I box them up after loading, not every one, just a good 10% sample. The factory hardball stuff will cycle well, but as you can see, not my preference- my 85 year old hands won't last long with a few boxes of hardball. I am thinking a ramp issue, as some others who had SAR's complained about SWC's not feeding well. My CZ's feed the handloads just fine, although not as perfectly as the hardball stuff. Could it be a weaker recoil spring? I have change it out in the compact, not in the others. Anyway, I will shoot some more this week, take notes, and post the results Thanks to all for the comments

January 30, 2022, 06:18 PM	#2
BornFighting88 Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2021 Posts: 455	Could it be short cycling?? Also, when you say “coated 200gr SWC”, do you mean waxed?? Gunk can cause feeding issues. Bullet geometries also sometimes lead to feeding problems. Anything that can get hung up on the magazine feed lips/feed ramp seam is going to give you issues, too. Polish your feed ramp, maybe??

January 30, 2022, 09:49 PM	#6
Steve in Allentown, Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 196	Have you ever shot these pistols using factory 230gr FMJ? In my live fire testing of any new 1911 I use this ammo. If the pistol won't run 100% with this ammo, there's most likely a geometry problem somewhere in the pistol. If the pistol does run fine with this ammo but not with your handloads, it's time to look at things like bullet seating depth and crimp. I'm with @Shadow9mm that more information is necessary to narrow down the diagnosis.

January 31, 2022, 11:08 AM	#9
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	Boscoe..if it were me....i would change bullets. those SWC are a hard one to get to feed consistently, not saying it cant be done, but some guns feed them fine while others have issues i have an old colt combat commander...early 90s vintage that i worked on the ramp and slicked up and i got it to feel about 98-99% with the SWC bullets but there seemed always a hick up....it might run fine for a 100+ rounds and then one would say nope i dont want to go in there so i changed to a 200gr RNFP and all the problems went away......i have 7 1911s and ALL of them run like a sewing machine with these bullets...i think the TRP would run with rocks if i loaded them but that gun is a jewel in a different class you might also try a truncated cone bullet they seem to feed well too...although i have not tried those some of my buddies use them with good results while these bullets dont make the nice paper punch hole in the target as the SWC they do shoot every bit as good for me and there is no doubt where it hit as has been said you could have a mag problem but i would bet since you said the guns feed hard ball ok then it is a SWC problem and maybe a mag problem with that bullet but if i were doing it i would change the bullet first and see what happens IIRC, JMB designed this gun to work with 200gr bullets and the army wanted the 230...thats why i use the 200s....just me....the 230s work just fine just my experience and .02 .... YMMV ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

January 31, 2022, 06:21 PM	#10
Steve in Allentown, Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Posts: 196	You might find it interesting to compare your reload dimensions to this classic Bullseye cartridge. Also, if you want to give a new magazine a try at solving the problem I recommend one of these three. Understand that everyone has their own favorite but in my experience you stand the best chance for success with one of these. Having carried and used GI 1911s courtesy of Uncle Sam I'm no fan of welded base magazines but if that's your choice, you should give one of these a try: Tripp 7 round magazine https://shop.1911parts.com/Tripp-Res...e-7R-45-WG.htm Wilson 7 round magazine https://shopwilsoncombat.com/MAGAZIN...fo/920-45FS7B/ If you prefer an 8 round magazine, this is my favorite 8 round magazine bar none. I highly recommend it: TMC Ultimate 8 round magazine https://shop.1911parts.com/TMC-Ultim...zines_c114.htm

January 31, 2022, 07:24 PM	#11
BornFighting88 Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2021 Posts: 455	I like Tripp Research mags and parts. I have a Cobra mag for my carry pistol that feeds and functions just dandy. I swapped the followers of my CMC Railed Power mags with Tripp Research followers. Haven't managed switching the followers of the factory mags, yet. Welded bases make it a nightmare to fish out the old and install the new.

February 1, 2022, 09:02 PM	#12
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo Steve, my loads are a dead ringer for your photo. Keep in mind, guys, I am not shooting a 1911, so the mags offer probably won't fit a SAR.

February 6, 2022, 06:11 PM	#14
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	feed problems, gun or ammo? Ok, I went to the range and shot about 100 rounds of factory loads, had a few jams, most went well. Shot about 100 rounds of commercial reloads that don't have the recoil of factory, and they were much worse in jamming and attendant problems. I will change recoil springs to the heaviest I have, a 16#, and see if that helps. Long term I ain't shooting factory hard ball. It is not nearly as much fun as my hand loads.

February 6, 2022, 06:58 PM	#15
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,326	I would start the way I look at most problems. First let’s assume you mean you have a failure. Let’s narrow it down to 1 gun and 1 shooter and 1 ammo and 1 day if possible. What is the exact failure? When does it occur? Can you recreate? What is the failure rate? Shooter - Is it the shooter? Try multiple shooters. Doe they all have the same failure rate? Pistol- Is it the pistol? Does the same ammo run well in another similar pistol? Is it clean? Does it feel right? Does it have less than 1000 rounds on the mainspring? Do all the magazines have the same force to load? Do the stiffest and weakest mags have the same failure rate? Ammo - Does 230gr Winchester, Federal, CCI all have the same failure? I choose this ammo because it is the standard. Anything else should work but is outside the standard. What velocity do the 200gr bullets shoot at?

February 6, 2022, 10:43 PM	#16
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo? Nathan, that is pretty much what I am going to do. I have another pistol of the same make that I will try with the same ammo. The CZ that is having a problem is customized,so I am asking the custom shop about that. The other one is a compact SAR, that I have not had any feed problems with in the past, so I can narrow it down. Do 9mm guys have this kind of trouble?

February 8, 2022, 04:27 PM	#18
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo? Sounds like a plan.

February 9, 2022, 08:50 AM	#19
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I understand, you have a SAR,not a 1911. Without looking it up ,I wouldn't know a SAR if it bit my ankle. What I'm going to tell you may not apply. With most modern 1911 barrels for 45 ACP, chamber mouths are already beveled properly to accommodate the 200 gr SWC. In earlier times,that was not necessarily so. Without being precise, just to help illustrate,picture a 45 deg bevel on the chamber mouth ,just above the feed ramp, clocking approx 4 oclock to 7 oclock. Enough to funnel the round nose of hardball into the chamber. The rest of the chamber mouth was left square cornered. As the square shoulder of the SWC rocked up and tried to enter the chamber, it might snag on the chamber mouth. So,a service the 1911 smiths offered was "Bevel the chamber mouth for SWC's" That meant extending the chamfer up to at least 9 oclock and 3 oclock. Maybe a bit more. That "funnel" served to nudge the SWC into the chamber. That may or may not apply to your SAR. I don't know. Another possibility. It seems you are using lighter loads. No problem! Keep it fun! Your mag spring has to overcome the weight and friction of all the rounds in the magazine and lift them till the top round stops at the fed lips. That all has to happen pretty fast as the slide does not dilly dally around waiting . Its headed home. The light loads might shorten the time the slide is full back in recoil, and if you mag springs are a bit sluggish you may get a mis feed. That may not solve anything,but its something to think about. ( I remember "Bosco" as a chocolate milk syrup heavily advertised on kid TV shows !!! ) Last edited by HiBC; February 9, 2022 at 08:56 AM.

February 9, 2022, 10:03 AM	#20
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Number your mags, so you can track performance. 4.0 is a very light load; my lightish load of 231 was over five grains. Try a different bullet shape. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

February 9, 2022, 02:12 PM	#21
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo? I have a whole box of different springs, intented for CZ 97's which are twins for the SAR. Down to 10# and up to 14#. I can see about that influence. I also have a Springfield Tactical 1911, I will check the feed ramp on it and the SAR to see. I can happily change bullets, once I use up the 1000 or more I have on hand

February 22, 2022, 08:16 PM	#22
L. Boscoe Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2021 Posts: 285	Feed problems: gun or ammo Ok, it was ammo. I loaded SWC with the ledge of the bullet about 0.1 or less above the case mouth. Did very well, perhaps perfect. Also loaded some hollow points from Berry's to the exact OAL that the Norma HP I have and they chambered 100%. Looking like I have got a solution. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.